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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (part 2)

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Old
04-24-2013, 02:32 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Maltese View Post
Huet, Halak and Hackett were all goalies that were appreciated by the fans. No overpaid, overated superstar here.

I would prefer to have that type of reliable goalie and get instead a super d-man or a super big center or big productive power forward.
and Carey Price is arguably the teams most popular player...i'm not talking about appreciation

I'm talking about expectations, any goalie that will ever dress for the Montreal Canadiens will have the highest expectations, IMO, the goalie of the Montreal Canadiens is the position with the most scrutiny throughout the entire league, there is no greater pressure than that position.

It doesn't matter if it's a 15 year vet or a rookie taking his first strides in the NHL or anything in between, the expectation will always be excellent and the comparison will always be Patrick Roy and anything short of what Roy accomplished will never be enough

Hell, even Patrick Roy was booed mercifully as a Hab...

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04-24-2013, 02:36 PM
  #702
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So you're saying that aside from the 3 goals last night that the Habs had no defensive break-downs? That Price did not save them multiple times throughout the night despite their horrid defensive stats?

I'm sorry to break it to you. But Hockey is a team game, much more than any other sport (save Running Back plays in the NFL). If the defense is constantly giving up grade A chances, the goalie can't stop them all.

If you're expecting miracles, you're going to hate every goalie we're ever going to have.
Gotta agree here...the ENTIRE TEAM, except for maybe Galchenyuk and Eller right now is playing like crap, all at the same time.

Price is included in that group but at the same time, right now, he has no margin for error. Unless he's absolutely perfect, the way the Habs are playing right now, they have no chance

couple that with the fact the Habs are facing alot of teams desperate to make the playoffs or play the spoiler role, while the Habs themselves have already booked their playoff ticket weeks ago...it's no shock to me to see how they're struggling.

The intensity and attention to detail is just not there, from the forwards, to the defensman and the goalies. The players will never admit it, but they've gotten complacent since winning 5-1 vs the Sabres

Thankfully there's still 2 games to turn the switch back on

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04-24-2013, 03:09 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Quick question...

When Price on his entry level deal...were your expectations any lower

His salary his really irrelevent in this conversation.

Price just has to be better, not because he now makes 6.25M/yr...but because this team needs him to be on form to have any chance at making any damage in the playoffs
Well, we disagree.

i think his salary is the crux of this conversation.

the salary we spend on the goalie is salary we cant spend on forward/defensive.

So please stop bringing the "our defense suck" excuse... we have to take for granted that in average, a team investing more $ on the goalie and less upfront will give more scoring chance than a team investing more upfront and less between the pipe. We pay Price 6 500 000$ to make up for this difference, but does he?


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04-24-2013, 03:21 PM
  #704
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Well, we disagree.

i think his salary is the crux of this conversation.

the salary we spend on the goalie is salary we cant spend on forward/defensive.

So please stop bringing the "our defense suck" excuse... we have to take for granted that in average, a team investing more $ on the goalie and less upfront will give more scoring chance than a team investing more upfront and less between the pipe. We pay Price 6 500 000$ to make up for this difference, but does he?
Sorry...the salary as it relates to his expectations IS irrelevant

I remember when Carey Price was on his ELC, maybe you don't...but he had as much pressure then as he does now. Hell, the expecations were probably even higher when he was making less money

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04-24-2013, 03:36 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Sorry...the salary as it relates to his expectations IS irrelevant

I remember when Carey Price was on his ELC, maybe you don't...but he had as much pressure then as he does now. Hell, the expecations were probably even higher when he was making less money
Personally i dont blame Price, i blame Bergevin for not trading Price/giving him 6 500 000$.

Having Price on ELC contract allowed us to have more $ to spend to sign/acquire UFA defenseman (Hamrlik, Spacek).

So, in the past theoretically, Price had in average a greater team in front of him than he have this season and will have in the future). By giving him 6 500 000$, Bergevin thought Price was up to the task to make up for this difference.

The problem is: 5 000 000$+ goalie are not that much dominant vs cheap goalie in comparison to 5 000 000$+ forward/defensemen vs cheap one.

Also if everything is equal, Montreal should be less successful next year than this year with the cap going down.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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04-24-2013, 03:48 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Personally i dont blame Price, i blame Bergevin for not trading Price/giving him 6 500 000$.

Having Price on ELC contract allowed us to have more $ to spend to sign/acquire UFA defenseman (Hamrlik, Spacek).

So, in the past theoretically, Price had in average a greater team in front of him than he have this season and will have in the future). By giving him 6 500 000$, Bergevin thought Price was up to the task to make up for this difference.

The problem is: 5 000 000$+ goalie are not that much dominant vs cheap goalie in comparison to 5 000 000$+ forward/defensemen vs cheap one.

Also if everything is equal, Montreal should be less successful next year than this year with the cap going down.
Why would Bergervin trade Price? We just traded Halak and give Price the #1 spot. He was doing quite well and he still haven't peaked. I don't see any reason why Bergevin would want to trade Price, even if he knows he got to pay price big money but any teams in the league needs legit #1 one goalie. We drafted and developed him, I don't see why we should get rid of him because we want to save 1M$.

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04-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Personally i dont blame Price, i blame Bergevin for not trading Price/giving him 6 500 000$.

Having Price on ELC contract allowed us to have more $ to spend to sign/acquire UFA defenseman (Hamrlik, Spacek).

So, in the past theoretically, Price had in average a greater team in front of him than he have this season and will have in the future). By giving him 6 500 000$, Bergevin thought Price was up to the task to make up for this difference.

The problem is: 5 000 000$+ goalie are not that much dominant vs cheap goalie in comparison to 5 000 000$+ forward/defensemen vs cheap one.

Also if everything is equal, Montreal should be less successful next year than this year with the cap going down.
Your fault is Bergevin didn't sign Price. Cheap goalies that have talent like a goalie being pay in the top tier, well they aren't that easy to find...

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04-24-2013, 04:02 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Why would Bergervin trade Price? We just traded Halak and give Price the #1 spot. He was doing quite well and he still haven't peaked. I don't see any reason why Bergevin would want to trade Price, even if he knows he got to pay price big money but any teams in the league needs legit #1 one goalie. We drafted and developed him, I don't see why we should get rid of him because we want to save 1M$.
Personally i would had traded Price if there was not way to sign him for 4 500 000$ or less. (Well, maybe accept 5 000 000$ depending on the term of the contract).

We have to put a limit somewhere and even if its only a 1 500 000$-2 000 000$ saving, i think he worth it.

Please take note that this is not only valid for Price but for most goalies in the league, if i was a GM, i would not pay any goalies more than 5 000 000$). And even if time to time i would be wrong, at least i can guarantee i would not make an Huet or Bryzgalov mistake. I guess i would be more often right than wrong.

Just take a look at this year saves % leader and tell me if there is any positive correlation between a goalie salary and his performance. (In there past few year there was a weak one.).

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04-24-2013, 04:07 PM
  #709
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He simply hasn't been very good. Why or why not I don't really care. He needs to be better. His performances haven't been what management or the players have expected. Spotting 2 -3 goal leads every game will hurt any team.

Regarding the quality chances, teams that give up tons of shots give up tons of chances, that hasn't been the case here. He's averaging less than 30 shots a game over the bad streak. Shots on goal is the single largest contributor to goals or scoring chances created. The idea that we give up few shots but a ridiculous amount of scoring chances just isn't true.

Every single excuse in the book is made for this guy. Has the team been great, no, has Price contributed largely to this, yes, as he's been pretty awful.

OMG it was a breakaway, we can't expect him to stop those. Well maybe it wasn't necessarily his fault on this particular goal, but every now and then it would be nice for him to shut the door. If he's going to perform no better than a 3million dollar goalie in these situations than what are we paying him 6.5 for?


Price isn't the only reason the team has struggled, but he's part of it and a big part imo. He'll come around, hopefully we won't be on the golf course before it happens.

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04-24-2013, 04:10 PM
  #710
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Give Price some slack. He had a wonderful season before that slump, and in some of the last 6 games, like yesterday, he was pretty good.

Chill. It's not like he's Steve Penney or Andrew Raycroft.

The real problem at this time is the defence playing before him. Markov, Weber, Gorges, Bouillon, Beaulieu and Diaz all had frequent awful shifts in the last 6 games.

Granted I missed the Leafs game, but I've been yelling and cursing at the D way more often than at Price in the last 6 games. Fix the D, and Price will be back to 2.00 GAA and .920+ immediately.

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04-24-2013, 04:11 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Your fault is Bergevin didn't sign Price. Cheap goalies that have talent like a goalie being pay in the top tier, well they aren't that easy to find...
Really??

take a look at the top 15 saves% leader this year and their salary. (20gp minimum).

1 Anderson .941 3,187,500$
2 Bobrovsky .930 1,785,000$
3 Rask .928 3,500,000$
4 Schneider .927 4,000,000$
5 Lunqvist .926 6,875,000$
6 Reimer .926 1,800,000$
7 Niemi .925 3,800,000$
8 Fasth .924 1,000,000$
9 Crawford .923 2,666,667$
10 Emery .923 1,150,000$
11 Howard .921 2,250,000$
12 Dubnyk .921 3,500,000$
13 Bishop .920 650,000$
14 Holtby .919 637,777$
15 Vokoun .919 2,000,000$

Only one of them is paid 4 5000 000$+ (Lundqvist), Another make 4 000 000$ (Schneider) and the rest of them earn all less than 3 800 000$

More than half of them (8) earn 2 000 000$ or less.

Now take a look at the bottom 5 saves % leader (with 20gp minimum).....

Quick .901 1,800,000$ (will earn 5 800 000$ next season)
Varlamov .901 2,833,333$
Brodeur .901 4,500,000$
Bryzgalov .898 5,666,667$
Kiprusoff .882 5,833,333$

3 of them earn 4 500 000$+

Here are the saves % of goalie being paid in the top tier (4 500 000$+) i am not even sure their combined saves % is better than the average goalie.

Rinne .910
Lundqvist .926
Price .904
Ward .908
Miller .914
Backstrom .909
Kiprusoff .882
Bryzgalov .898
Luongo .913
Thomas (Sitting out the season)
Fleury .917
Dipietro (.893 in the AHL)


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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04-24-2013, 04:14 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
The beauty of that article is that he starts off telling people not to panic and then he concludes by saying that we are screwed anyway because Price is our goalie.
Classic Bertrand Raymond.

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04-24-2013, 04:26 PM
  #713
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Convoluted garbage
Just from the start, Howard just signed an extension giving him 5M+ per. Bob's deal is expiring this season and he'll likely break the bank too.

The correlation you're trying to make is simply absurd from the get-go. Regardless of Quick's performance this season, he pretty much won the Kings the cup last year. Kipper and Brodeur were elite goalies at one point and as such got lucrative deals based on that.

Just because a goalie is emerging doesn't mean that should be the standard. Once their deal expires, they all get lucrative deals.

This reasoning is so nonsensical. I'll give you a 2/10 for getting me to reply to it though.

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04-24-2013, 04:30 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Just from the start, Howard just signed an extension giving him 5M+ per. Bob's deal is expiring this season and he'll likely break the bank too.

The correlation you're trying to make is simply absurd from the get-go. Regardless of Quick's performance this season, he pretty much won the Kings the cup last year. Kipper and Brodeur were elite goalies at one point and as such got lucrative deals based on that.

Just because a goalie is emerging doesn't mean that should be the standard. Once their deal expires, they all get lucrative deals.

This reasoning is so nonsensical. I'll give you a 2/10 for getting me to reply to it though.
What i am showing is: its most of the time a mistake to give them a lucrative deal in a era where the average cheap goalie is very good.

Take a look at the top 10 scoring forwards and their salary:

Crosby 8 700 000$
St-Louis 5,625,000
Stamkos 7,500,000
Ovechkin 9,538,462
Kane 6,300,000
Kunitz 3 750 000$
Staal 8,250,000
Kessel 5,400,000
Backstrom 6,700,000
Getzlaf 5,325,000

Only one of them doesn't make 5 000 000$, high paid forward are usually dominant vs cheap 2 000 000$ (and less) forward.

So is it a better bet to invest your money in forward or goalie?


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 04:45 PM.
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04-24-2013, 04:44 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
What i am showing is: its most of the time a mistake to give them a lucrative deal in a era where the average cheap goalie is very good.
They're only cheap because they're emerging. Then they ask to get paid. So your whole idea is to switch goalies every now and then? Come on, that is just absurd. Playing musical chair with goalies is not and never will be a GM's choice. Unpredictable goaltending is simply not going to cut it.

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04-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Really??

take a look at the top 15 saves% leader this year and their salary. (20gp minimum).

1 Anderson .941 3,187,500$
2 Bobrovsky .930 1,785,000$
3 Rask .928 3,500,000$
4 Schneider .927 4,000,000$
5 Lunqvist .926 6,875,000$
6 Reimer .926 1,800,000$
7 Niemi .925 3,800,000$
8 Fasth .924 1,000,000$
9 Crawford .923 2,666,667$
10 Emery .923 1,150,000$
11 Howard .921 2,250,000$
12 Dubnyk .921 3,500,000$
13 Bishop .920 650,000$
14 Holtby .919 637,777$
15 Vokoun .919 2,000,000$

Only one of them is paid 4 5000 000$+ (Lundqvist), Another make 4 000 000$ (Schneider) and the rest of them earn all less than 3 800 000$

More than half of them (8) earn 2 000 000$ or less.

Now take a look at the bottom 5 saves % leader (with 20gp minimum).....

Quick .901 1,800,000$ (will earn 5 800 000$ next season)
Varlamov .901 2,833,333$
Brodeur .901 4,500,000$
Bryzgalov .898 5,666,667$
Kiprusoff .882 5,833,333$

3 of them earn 4 500 000$+

Here are the saves % of goalie being paid in the top tier (4 500 000$+) i am not even sure their combined saves % is better than the average goalie.

Rinne .910
Lundqvist .926
Price .904
Ward .908
Miller .914
Backstrom .909
Kiprusoff .882
Bryzgalov .898
Luongo .913
Thomas (Sitting out the season)
Fleury .917
Dipietro (.893 in the AHL)
I never said they didn't exist, but how many of them are having one hit wonder years, how many of them will be able to perform for years to come? So what you are saying is every year go into training camp having no idea who your goalie is. If he is good, keep him for 3 years and when he is going to worth money, get rid of him. So every 3 years, if not sooner the team should find a new goalie?

Seriously, at least have a good argument.

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04-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
They're only cheap because they're emerging. Then they ask to get paid. So your whole idea is to switch goalies every now and then? Come on, that is just absurd. Playing musical chair with goalies is not and never will be a GM's choice. Unpredictable goaltending is simply not going to cut it.
Take a look at the top paid forward then...

where are the emerging one who will get paid once their contract expire?

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04-24-2013, 04:46 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Take a look at the top 10 scoring forwards and their salary:

Crosby 8 700 000$
St-Louis 5,625,000
Stamkos 7,500,000
Ovechkin 9,538,462
Kane 6,300,000
Kunitz 3 750 000$
Staal 8,250,000
Kessel 5,400,000
Backstrom 6,700,000
Getzlaf 5,325,000

Only one of them doesn't make 5 000 000$
So when Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, etc. were all on their ELC, did you think getting cheap forwards was the way to get high end offense? All these guys are making money because they proved they were high end scorers. Matt Moulson scored 30 goals on a laughable salary. What's he making now with similar goal production?

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04-24-2013, 04:48 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
So when Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, etc. were all on their ELC, did you think getting cheap forwards was the way to get high end offense? All these guys are making money because they proved they were high end scorers. Matt Moulson scored 30 goals on a laughable salary. What's he making now with similar production?
You really dont get it.

I did make the stats when Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos was on ELC. And still most of the top10-15 dominant forward was high paid one. There was no evidence showing getting cheap forwards was the way to get high end offense, even if there was some exception here and there.

But when it come to the nowadays goalie market, its a trend: High paid goalie are not that much better than cheap goalie.


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04-24-2013, 04:49 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
You really dont get it.

I did make the stats when Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos was on ELC. and still most of the top10-15 dominant forward was high paid one.
You don't get it.

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04-24-2013, 04:50 PM
  #721
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Take a look at the top paid forward then...

where are the emerging one who will get paid once their contract expire?
Well, if you go further down, you'll notice guys like Hall, Stepan, etc. Actually Hall is already getting a 5.1M$ raise starting next year.

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04-24-2013, 04:52 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post

Of course you will find exception here and there. But when it come to the nowadays goalie market, its a trend: High paid goalie are not that much better than cheap goalie.
I agree that the discrepancy in pay doesn't guarantee a better performance, but when comparing contracts you really have to keep in mind their age/contract status.

The forwards comparison is irrelevant.

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04-24-2013, 04:54 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
They're only cheap because they're emerging. Then they ask to get paid. So your whole idea is to switch goalies every now and then? Come on, that is just absurd. Playing musical chair with goalies is not and never will be a GM's choice. Unpredictable goaltending is simply not going to cut it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I never said they didn't exist, but how many of them are having one hit wonder years, how many of them will be able to perform for years to come? So what you are saying is every year go into training camp having no idea who your goalie is. If he is good, keep him for 3 years and when he is going to worth money, get rid of him. So every 3 years, if not sooner the team should find a new goalie?

Seriously, at least have a good argument.
Teams should be willing to play musical chair with their goalie. The same way Phoenix had the best season in their history after letting Bryzgalov go and replace him for a cheap Smith. Would they have been better team if they kept Bryzgalov at 5 000 000$+ ? How many high paid goalie are able to perform for years to come?

The same Way Florida had their best season in a decade in 2011-2012 after letting Vokoun go and replace him by a cheap Theodore.

What if Nashville let Rinne go and instead put the 7 000 000$ on a good defenseman and a cheap ufa like Vokoun or Ellis? Note that they previously did similar strategy by trading Vokoun to Florida.

What if Vancouver didnt extend Luongo, decided to let him go and invest the $ elsewhere then decide to play Schneider?

I think its a viable strategy if you cant reach a reasonable contract with your goalie. Paying big $ doesn't guarantee enough that you wont get unpredictable goaltending.

Note that all this only apply in the post-lockout goalie market. In the 80' and 90', elite goalies did worth every penny.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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04-24-2013, 04:55 PM
  #724
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Well, if you go further down, you'll notice guys like Hall, Stepan, etc. Actually Hall is already getting a 5.1M$ raise starting next year.
Exactly, they are further down. I didnt need to look further down to find cheap goalie among the leader.

Its not that much different than goalie in the fact that young emerging forwards will all get a raise.....the only difference is you dont find many emerging forward among the leader and when you give a big contract to a forward, you have more chance to get a good ratio performance/$ than if you invest on goalie.

It show than veteran Goalie aren't that much better than emerging goalie, not as much as veterans forwards are better than emerging forwards.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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04-24-2013, 06:28 PM
  #725
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You guys don't want to acknowledge it but Palindrom has a really good point. For a team that spends to the cap, money is invested much better in a foward or dman than a goalie.

There are two reasons for this.

#1 Goalie performances fluctuate ridiculously
#2 There are only 30 #1 spots, and there are more and more quality goaltenders. As a result, nearly every team has a goalie that is currently doing very well OR who is a big name and has done well in the past.

Logically, and I'm not saying this is the case, but if there are 30 really good goalies and no phenoms, the team paying the most for their goalie would be at a disadvantage compared to the team that would pay the least considering there wouldn't be much difference between the #30 and the #1.

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