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Game 46: Preds vs Flames 7:00 PM CST "Salute the 7th Man Edition"

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04-24-2013, 03:37 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling View Post
You seriously need to work on reading comprehension.

I - and I think most other people who are "cheering against our team" - want our boys to come out and play their a***es off every single shift. I want us to try as hard as we can to win, I just hope that we end up getting outplayed despite our effort. I don't want our players to give up. I just want them to be outclassed, for right now.
We've had people here question why we are scoring during games ... celebrate goals from the other team while failing to mention a single thing our players do well ... so based on those comments, my comprehension is just fine. Your defensiveness level is more telling than your retort. Don't worry, you aren't the only one taking general comments so personally and revealing quite a bit in the process.

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04-24-2013, 03:38 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Byrd, no one is saying a top 3 will fix the ills next season but it sure as heck won't hurt for the next 10-15 years will it? Teams have to plan for the immediate and long term future of the franchise. Landing a top 3 forward certainly helps us. Team that with Forsberg and the future is brighter. I hate losing as much as anyone around here but does losing a few games right now benefit us more for years or does a few wins help us long term?
Alexandre Daigle ... great help for his team over the course of 10-15 years.

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04-24-2013, 03:41 PM
  #128
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Retention of talent is an issue here. When your looking long term. And while Rinne and Weber are signed long term FF and Mac or Drouin would not be in there prime before Rinne and Weber would be in there decline. Both are 18 and most forwards are in there best years at 25 to 28. In 7 years im not sure Where Rinne will be and Weber is he is still here which I doubt will be 34.

It wiould make more sense to trade this first rounder and perhaps Blum or ellis or both to get a player like Thomas Vanek who is in the prime years now. Pick up couple more forward when teams look to dump salary this summer and regroup.

Weber will not want to stay here and wait for the Preds to devlop FF, Watson, This pick, to become competitive and have a chance for a run for a cup.

Now if there is a option to get Mac DP has to do it. But it will be a sign that he return to the playoffs may be a few years. Then Weber will force a trade so he may have a chance for a cup. One only has to look at Pronger to see what could go down, he wanted a chance for a cup and didn't see it in St Louis so he forces a trade, didn't work out another trade. Then there Hossa who jumped arround until he got his cup.

If we were privy to DP, Trotz and the ownership we might have an idea how this is going to fall out but were not. Were fans with far reaching opinions but we need to look no further than the past to get a feel of what DP will do.
Crosby, Malkin, Kane and Toews all won the Cup under the age of 25 so saying guys won't hit their prime and we can't win until they do is bunk. There are lots of young guys who take their teams to Cups. Didn't Perry and Getzlaf win one as well? I mean, you have a kid like Forsberg, pair him with Mac or Drouin and there you have two pretty awesome forwards. Throw Wilson in there and that's pretty solid. Now everyone is moving down the depth chart some and we have a solid top 9 and this so called rebuild may take a year. Then all of a sudden, we still have Weber and Rinne and a bunch of these guys have some time under their belts and are ready to rock for many years.

Sorry but this shouldn't be too hard for us to accomplish, especially if we land someone in the top 3 this year.

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04-24-2013, 03:52 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Crosby, Malkin, Kane and Toews all won the Cup under the age of 25 so saying guys won't hit their prime and we can't win until they do is bunk. There are lots of young guys who take their teams to Cups. Didn't Perry and Getzlaf win one as well? I mean, you have a kid like Forsberg, pair him with Mac or Drouin and there you have two pretty awesome forwards. Throw Wilson in there and that's pretty solid. Now everyone is moving down the depth chart some and we have a solid top 9 and this so called rebuild may take a year. Then all of a sudden, we still have Weber and Rinne and a bunch of these guys have some time under their belts and are ready to rock for many years.

Sorry but this shouldn't be too hard for us to accomplish, especially if we land someone in the top 3 this year.
Your four examples of players who won Cups under the age of 25 were all on teams that had a minimum of 3 top five picks in the span four years. It wasn't just Crosby and Malkin for the Pens ... but Fleury, Whitney, and Staal as well. Kane and Toews had Barker plus the #14 overall Seabrook. If you want that type of rebuild, it takes years of poor performance and the resultant early picks.

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04-24-2013, 03:53 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Alexandre Daigle ... great help for his team over the course of 10-15 years.
Crosby, Malkin, Toews and Kane beg to differ.

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04-24-2013, 03:56 PM
  #131
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In all reality there is not one thing that indicates this team stands a remot chance to win either of these last two games if we want them to or not. And if I could trade for a 24 or 25 year old 30 goals scorer I would trade this pick in a heartbeat. We are in much the same shape the Oil were a few years ago when they started landing there top 5 picks. Heck they have Eberle, RNH, Hall, Yakapov and Gagner and are no closer to a cup run than the Preds.

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04-24-2013, 03:56 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
Retention of talent is an issue here. When your looking long term. And while Rinne and Weber are signed long term FF and Mac or Drouin would not be in there prime before Rinne and Weber would be in there decline. Both are 18 and most forwards are in there best years at 25 to 28. In 7 years im not sure Where Rinne will be and Weber is he is still here which I doubt will be 34.

It wiould make more sense to trade this first rounder and perhaps Blum or ellis or both to get a player like Thomas Vanek who is in the prime years now. Pick up couple more forward when teams look to dump salary this summer and regroup.

Weber will not want to stay here and wait for the Preds to devlop FF, Watson, This pick, to become competitive and have a chance for a run for a cup.

Now if there is a option to get Mac DP has to do it. But it will be a sign that he return to the playoffs may be a few years. Then Weber will force a trade so he may have a chance for a cup. One only has to look at Pronger to see what could go down, he wanted a chance for a cup and didn't see it in St Louis so he forces a trade, didn't work out another trade. Then there Hossa who jumped arround until he got his cup.

If we were privy to DP, Trotz and the ownership we might have an idea how this is going to fall out but were not. Were fans with far reaching opinions but we need to look no further than the past to get a feel of what DP will do.
If that's the case, we might as well blow the whole thing up, trade Weber/Rinne and start over.

Because this team isn't talented enough from top to bottom to challenge for a cup, and we're not going to get the parts to plug the holes any other way than hitting a homerun at the draft, if you consider that we must wait for kids to develop until thier 25-28 and we don't shop for UFA's, and we're not a hot destination anyway.

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04-24-2013, 03:59 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Your four examples of players who won Cups under the age of 25 were all on teams that had a minimum of 3 top five picks in the span four years. It wasn't just Crosby and Malkin for the Pens ... but Fleury, Whitney, and Staal as well. Kane and Toews had Barker plus the #14 overall Seabrook. If you want that type of rebuild, it takes years of poor performance and the resultant early picks.
Yet we have Weber and Rinne and that's chopped liver? Josi? Klein? Wilson? Yeah, those other teams had some great players on them but it's not like we have a team full of garbage when healthy. We have a great goalie. We have a beast on our top pairing. We have as solid a top 3 defense as you will find anywhere else. We have depth in our top 9 when healthy.

Did LA have a ton of top 3 or top 5 picks? Doughty was second overall. Anyone else from last years team that was a top 5 overall? What about Detroit over the last bunch of years? They found gems later in the draft. Anaheim did it with guys who weren't top 5's for them. Ryan was the only one that comes to mind that was a top 5 for them. Others were free agents or traded for.

People make it sound as if we should play hard, win, miss out on a top 3 pick and try the old Predator way to have success. We have had mild success at best. That's a fact. 7 out of 9 years in the playoffs is great. Two series wins is all we have to show for it. We are a middle of the pack team. We have some very good pieces in place. Add a piece here or there that is top end talent and I bet all of a sudden we are competing with the best teams in the league.

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04-24-2013, 04:01 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Crosby, Malkin, Toews and Kane beg to differ.
Multiple top picks for each of those teams. Chicago had three picks in the top three over a four year span .... Pittsburgh had four top two picks in four years with a #5 overall the year before that run. It wasn't just one early pick for those teams.

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04-24-2013, 04:05 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
Yet we have Weber and Rinne and that's chopped liver? Josi? Klein? Wilson? Yeah, those other teams had some great players on them but it's not like we have a team full of garbage when healthy. We have a great goalie. We have a beast on our top pairing. We have as solid a top 3 defense as you will find anywhere else. We have depth in our top 9 when healthy.

Did LA have a ton of top 3 or top 5 picks? Doughty was second overall. Anyone else from last years team that was a top 5 overall? What about Detroit over the last bunch of years? They found gems later in the draft. Anaheim did it with guys who weren't top 5's for them. Ryan was the only one that comes to mind that was a top 5 for them. Others were free agents or traded for.

People make it sound as if we should play hard, win, miss out on a top 3 pick and try the old Predator way to have success. We have had mild success at best. That's a fact. 7 out of 9 years in the playoffs is great. Two series wins is all we have to show for it. We are a middle of the pack team. We have some very good pieces in place. Add a piece here or there that is top end talent and I bet all of a sudden we are competing with the best teams in the league.
So we need a top 5 pick to improve as evidenced by teams that improved without a lot of, if any, top 5 overall picks on their roster like LA and Detroit?

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04-24-2013, 04:13 PM
  #136
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The two years prior to getting Malkin and Crosby the Pens had 58 points both years.I remember poking fun at the Pens then.In 2006-2007 they made it back to playopffs but it was not just Malkin and Sid the Puss. Stall, Whitney , Oulette, Malone and the emergeing Fleury turned that team arround.

Sorry but FF and Mac are not going to equal Malkin and Crosby nor do we have near they pieces they had.

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04-24-2013, 04:24 PM
  #137
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So how do we get better? Getting a top 5 in multiple years won't do it. Having a good team in place and getting a top 5 won't do it. How the f are we supposed to build a team then? It's like people have to justify why this won't work and why this won't work but adding a top 5 talent to this team is a bad idea. Tell me then what we're supposed to do to get to the next level because what the team has done in the past hasn't worked and any suggestions some of us around here make are obviously wrong and stupid so I'm all ears as to how to make our team better next year and for the next 10 years and allow us to compete for the Cup.

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04-24-2013, 04:37 PM
  #138
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So how do we get better? Getting a top 5 in multiple years won't do it. Having a good team in place and getting a top 5 won't do it. How the f are we supposed to build a team then? It's like people have to justify why this won't work and why this won't work but adding a top 5 talent to this team is a bad idea. Tell me then what we're supposed to do to get to the next level because what the team has done in the past hasn't worked and any suggestions some of us around here make are obviously wrong and stupid so I'm all ears as to how to make our team better next year and for the next 10 years and allow us to compete for the Cup.
You aren't supposed to discuss things. Just sit around and praise Poile, Trotz and the Predators way and enjoy all of our Stanley Cups. You wouldn't want to turn out like Columbus right?

Clearly the answer is, draft anywhere. Don't draft high because there is no guarantee of getting someone good and even then, you have to do that for at least 3 years to get any type of result. Don't sign scorers because a) they don't exist, b) will make us worse and c) will cost too much. Don't trade for players because a) those GMs don't want what we have to offer, b) those players don't want to come here and c) those deals aren't there to be made. If we acquire anything other than cheap third or fourth line players, we'll be destined to become Columbus or the Islanders.

Basically these boards aren't for discussion.

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04-24-2013, 04:38 PM
  #139
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So we need a top 5 pick to improve as evidenced by teams that improved without a lot of, if any, top 5 overall picks on their roster like LA and Detroit?
LA is a funny situation. They were awful for several years, had 3 top 5 picks out of 4 years, I believe, but only one of those is still with the team (Doughty). Hickey (#4 overall) more or less busted, and was claimed by the Isles off of waivers this season. Schenn (#5 overall) was traded in the Richards package. They've also spent first rounders on Jonathan Bernier (back-up to Quick), Colten Teubert (traded for Penner, probably a bust), and Trevor Lewis (bottom 6 guy).

The rest of their core: Kopitar was #11, Brown was #13, and Quick was a third rounder, all from the Dave Taylor era before they REALLY started to suck.

LA's strength has been being able to amass prospect depth and making trades for quality players (Stoll, Williams, Richards, Carter, Greene, Penner). They have also been relatively successful with picks outside the first round, and have done a good job of bringing in quality free agents to round the team out (Scuderi, Mitchell, etc...).

Those years that we were looking at top 5 picks, though, were disgusting. No fan base wants to go through even that long (3-4 years), let alone the types of rebuilds seen in Edmonton or Long Island.

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04-24-2013, 04:53 PM
  #140
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1st you make decisions on projects you have in the system. Refrain from a glut of 4th liners that accumilate every few years here that makes to sll them off when they do not develop into top 9 guys. Tootoo, Fiddler, Smithson, Nichol ect ect ect. Make an effort to get a 1st line locked down that will make opposing teams to make decisions who to put against them. Admit there is a need for scoring forwards and defensive forwards and use them approiatley. Year after year do not expect scoring by committee. Team will need a combination of competent veterans and young guys coming up. Quit banking on draft picks being college players being NHL ready. If you have a player that in the top 3 in team in points do not cut them loose the next season.

Right now this team is more than a couple players away from being a playoff team much less a cup contender.

As fans you must be able to survive situations like this. As far as the Cup gos consider St Louis has been in the league over 40 years and do not have cup. Heck the Bugs have not even made the playoffs yet.

The team needs some dramatic change be it a small rebuild to get back to playoffs or a blow-up to rebuild a team to competed for a cup in 5 years. And by blow Up I mean trading the two building blocks left. Weber and Rinne. Those two would garner a boatload of talent and picks. If that decision is made you have to change coaches and the GM as well. So you can pick an option go young and build for 5 years from now or Trade wisely and grab a couple F/As and cut the redundant 4th liners.

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04-24-2013, 05:01 PM
  #141
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Heck the Bugs have not even made the playoffs yet.
They have made it before.

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04-24-2013, 05:08 PM
  #142
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They have made it before.
Your correct I had forgot they were swept by the Wings in 09. But my point still is we have been pretty spoiled over the last 10 years making it in.

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04-24-2013, 05:09 PM
  #143
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You aren't supposed to discuss things. Just sit around and praise Poile, Trotz and the Predators way and enjoy all of our Stanley Cups. You wouldn't want to turn out like Columbus right?

Clearly the answer is, draft anywhere. Don't draft high because there is no guarantee of getting someone good and even then, you have to do that for at least 3 years to get any type of result. Don't sign scorers because a) they don't exist, b) will make us worse and c) will cost too much. Don't trade for players because a) those GMs don't want what we have to offer, b) those players don't want to come here and c) those deals aren't there to be made. If we acquire anything other than cheap third or fourth line players, we'll be destined to become Columbus or the Islanders.

Basically these boards aren't for discussion.
As I have found out around here, you toe the line and nod your head along with whatever comes out of Poile's mouth. If you disagree with him or talk about getting a superstar player in the draft at the top, then take that sweater off, burn it, and quit watching hockey because you my friend are NOT a real fan!

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04-24-2013, 05:36 PM
  #144
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As I have found out around here, you toe the line and nod your head along with whatever comes out of Poile's mouth. If you disagree with him or talk about getting a superstar player in the draft at the top, then take that sweater off, burn it, and quit watching hockey because you my friend are NOT a real fan!
I haven't seen anybody really upset with the notion of drafting a fantastic player in the draft. I have seen some upset with fans actively rooting for the team to lose, or for unrealistic expectations about said player.

Honestly, the Poile fans around here seem about at parity with the Poile haters, with a bunch of indifferents in between.

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04-24-2013, 06:02 PM
  #145
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So how do we get better? Getting a top 5 in multiple years won't do it. Having a good team in place and getting a top 5 won't do it. How the f are we supposed to build a team then? It's like people have to justify why this won't work and why this won't work but adding a top 5 talent to this team is a bad idea. Tell me then what we're supposed to do to get to the next level because what the team has done in the past hasn't worked and any suggestions some of us around here make are obviously wrong and stupid so I'm all ears as to how to make our team better next year and for the next 10 years and allow us to compete for the Cup.
So you want to suck long enough to get those years of early picks like the Pens, Hawks, and Kings did? Granted, the Kings moved most of those early picks, but, they did get them then traded them for pieces used later.

Maybe we can follow the Caps' model and get three top five picks in a four year span, including a #1 overall, with nothing much more to show than we have. Or the Oilers route with three consecutive #1 overall picks with another lottery pick this year. Seen Stamkos winning much for Tampa? Me neither. If Central Scouting rankings were accurate projections of future performance, the late round picks would never develop and every first rounder would excel. That simply isn't the case. It takes a lot to get the right player into a situation where they are able to put up good individual numbers while contributing to team success.

This year's draft has several forwards projected to contribute in the first season or two ... plenty of options. Poile and Fenton need to pick the best fit available no matter if we pick first or eighth. The option of trading the pick is there as well depending on what gets offered. Just for laughs, I looked back at the 1998 pre-draft evaluations. USA Today called some kid named Legwand the "Best skater and scorer in the draft" while Central Scouting called him "always a threat to score"... just some perspective on the rankings and projections of these kids. Last time we picked a top five level offensive talent was some headcase that kept slipping down the draft board then bolted while under contract ... again, perspective.

Forsberg shows promise, but needs more development. It will be interesting to see how he performs after a full off season in the system and a preseason on NA ice. Smith is a potential trade move ... glimpses of talent but extremely inconsistent. Beck, Bourque, Wilson all stepped up this year ... so we're not looking at a bare cupboard up front. SK is playing himself to the third line ... too much lazy play in spite of the talent he shows from time to time ... if he doesn't get traded. The big question is if Wilson is able to continue his progression and become a true top line winger. If so, we need one decent move on the FA or trade market to bring in another top 3/6 forward ... either center or winger. Contrary to rants, both Fisher and Legwand are capable of putting up first line center numbers as evidenced last year when both were in the top 30 scorer for their position. Legwand is currently tied with Mike Richards and Henrik Sedin for goals scored this season (24th). They do have more assists, but, we could debate all day how much of that is Legwand and how much is the decimated lineup we've skated for so much of this season.

On the back end, we need to look for a #4 d-man to challenge or replace Bartley. One of Ellis and Blum are tradeable for the right price ... not just to move them for the sake of moving one. Weber, Josi, Klein for the top three, FA/trade or an improved Bartley at #4 .... with Bartley (if replaced on the second pair), Blum, Ellis, Gill, Ekholm rounding out the bottom pairing

Then the last decision is what to do about the backup goalie. Promote from within or sign a FA?

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04-24-2013, 06:08 PM
  #146
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Your four examples of players who won Cups under the age of 25 were all on teams that had a minimum of 3 top five picks in the span four years. It wasn't just Crosby and Malkin for the Pens ... but Fleury, Whitney, and Staal as well. Kane and Toews had Barker plus the #14 overall Seabrook. If you want that type of rebuild, it takes years of poor performance and the resultant early picks.
the fact that you listed Barker as a key component to a cup win is a joke, right? Your logic states that Edmonton will be the favorite for the cup since they have a few top 4 picks.

EDIT: we have a very capable team, we arent some crappy team with no franchise players... WE HAVE TWO! Weber and Rinne alone make us a solid core. If we add a top 5 pick how does that not help......?

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04-24-2013, 06:15 PM
  #147
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the fact that you listed Barker as a key component to a cup win is a joke, right? Your logic states that Edmonton will be the favorite for the cup since they have a few top 4 picks.

EDIT: we have a very capable team, we arent some crappy team with no franchise players... WE HAVE TWO! Weber and Rinne alone make us a solid core. If we add a top 5 pick how does that not help......?
Actually, if you bother to read what I've written over the past several weeks ... I've never said I was against us getting a top five pick. I have commented against tanking to do it and repeatedly mentioned my dislike for cheering against our team. Play to win every night, PERIOD. I've also pointed out that the teams cited by others as benefiting from an early pick to win a Cup had much more than one early pick to do it ... never that any number of early picks results in a Cup win .. hence the mention of teams such as Tampa, Edmonton, and Washington.

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04-24-2013, 06:20 PM
  #148
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So you want to suck long enough to get those years of early picks like the Pens, Hawks, and Kings did? Granted, the Kings moved most of those early picks, but, they did get them then traded them for pieces used later.

Maybe we can follow the Caps' model and get three top five picks in a four year span, including a #1 overall, with nothing much more to show than we have. Or the Oilers route with three consecutive #1 overall picks with another lottery pick this year. Seen Stamkos winning much for Tampa? Me neither. If Central Scouting rankings were accurate projections of future performance, the late round picks would never develop and every first rounder would excel. That simply isn't the case. It takes a lot to get the right player into a situation where they are able to put up good individual numbers while contributing to team success.

This year's draft has several forwards projected to contribute in the first season or two ... plenty of options. Poile and Fenton need to pick the best fit available no matter if we pick first or eighth. The option of trading the pick is there as well depending on what gets offered. Just for laughs, I looked back at the 1998 pre-draft evaluations. USA Today called some kid named Legwand the "Best skater and scorer in the draft" while Central Scouting called him "always a threat to score"... just some perspective on the rankings and projections of these kids. Last time we picked a top five level offensive talent was some headcase that kept slipping down the draft board then bolted while under contract ... again, perspective.

Forsberg shows promise, but needs more development. It will be interesting to see how he performs after a full off season in the system and a preseason on NA ice. Smith is a potential trade move ... glimpses of talent but extremely inconsistent. Beck, Bourque, Wilson all stepped up this year ... so we're not looking at a bare cupboard up front. SK is playing himself to the third line ... too much lazy play in spite of the talent he shows from time to time ... if he doesn't get traded. The big question is if Wilson is able to continue his progression and become a true top line winger. If so, we need one decent move on the FA or trade market to bring in another top 3/6 forward ... either center or winger. Contrary to rants, both Fisher and Legwand are capable of putting up first line center numbers as evidenced last year when both were in the top 30 scorer for their position. Legwand is currently tied with Mike Richards and Henrik Sedin for goals scored this season (24th). They do have more assists, but, we could debate all day how much of that is Legwand and how much is the decimated lineup we've skated for so much of this season.

On the back end, we need to look for a #4 d-man to challenge or replace Bartley. One of Ellis and Blum are tradeable for the right price ... not just to move them for the sake of moving one. Weber, Josi, Klein for the top three, FA/trade or an improved Bartley at #4 .... with Bartley (if replaced on the second pair), Blum, Ellis, Gill, Ekholm rounding out the bottom pairing

Then the last decision is what to do about the backup goalie. Promote from within or sign a FA?
So basically you've just said everything I've said in a few posts over the last day. We're on the same page. The only thing we disagree about is if we should tank or not. I'm kind of surprised you're not for a tank considering you're a military man.

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04-24-2013, 06:34 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
So basically you've just said everything I've said in a few posts over the last day. We're on the same page. The only thing we disagree about is if we should tank or not. I'm kind of surprised you're not for a tank considering you're a military man.
The King of Battle has no need for tanks.

Maybe it's the dragging my butt through too many 8+ mile runs where I wanted to stop and get a ride instead ... too many 12 and 25 mile ruck marches that left my legs dead for days afterward .... too many years in a place where people actively tried to kill me ... but still going hard as I could until the finish that shaped the abhorrence for quitting on the season. The players' job is to try to win every game they lace up the skates. They've gone into Chicago and took games to OT when on paper they should have been blown out of the building. They came back twice last night alone in front of the home crowd for the last time. They have a chance to spoil the Wings season. I want them to keep fighting until there are no more fights left.

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04-24-2013, 07:03 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The King of Battle has no need for tanks.

Maybe it's the dragging my butt through too many 8+ mile runs where I wanted to stop and get a ride instead ... too many 12 and 25 mile ruck marches that left my legs dead for days afterward .... too many years in a place where people actively tried to kill me ... but still going hard as I could until the finish that shaped the abhorrence for quitting on the season. The players' job is to try to win every game they lace up the skates. They've gone into Chicago and took games to OT when on paper they should have been blown out of the building. They came back twice last night alone in front of the home crowd for the last time. They have a chance to spoil the Wings season. I want them to keep fighting until there are no more fights left.
I totally get all of that and am usually the same way. We finally have a chance for something we've all wanted so to me, losing a few now for the benefit of the future is a small price to pay.

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