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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (part 2)

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Old
04-24-2013, 07:38 PM
  #726
uiCk
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Yes he has a good point, let's spend all our $ on forwards and d, and let's just pick up goalies ala Tampa bay, flyers and Toronto. Excellent game plan. pick up one hit wonder goaltender's/35 year olds and hope they can repeat.


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04-24-2013, 07:48 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Yes he has a good point, let's spend all our $ on forwards and d, and let's just pick up goalies ala Tampa bay, flyers and Toronto. Excellent game plan.
TB went to the conference finals the year Boston won the cup, and they were actually one game away from going to the finals. Better than what we've done in 20 years. Just saying.

Flyers had Brobovsky and decided to spend a **** ton of cash on Bryzgalov, dunno why you're including them in this. They would have been best served to just go with Brobo and try to sign some other players to make their team better.

Toronto's goaltending has been much better than the habs this season.

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04-24-2013, 07:52 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
TB went to the conference finals the year Boston won the cup, and they were actually one game away from going to the finals. Better than what we've done in 20 years. Just saying.

Flyers had Brobovsky and decided to spend a **** ton of cash on Bryzgalov, dunno why you're including them in this. They would have been best served to just go with Brobo and try to sign some other players to make their team better.

Toronto's goaltending has been much better than the habs this season.
... I can't even.

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04-24-2013, 07:52 PM
  #729
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Well, let's just get every underpaid forward, D and goalie in the league, and then add some strong veteran UFA's at the deadline.

That's so simple, I can't understand why teams aren't doing it already.

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04-24-2013, 07:57 PM
  #730
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Yes, the defense has been putrid lately. But the goalie's job is to mitigate the consequences of defensive mistakes (after all, most scoring changes are from defensive mistakes) AND at the same time, keep to a reasonable minimum the number of soft goals. Has CP been able to do that in the last month or so? No, at least not nearly consistently enough.

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04-24-2013, 07:57 PM
  #731
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Yes he has a good point, let's spend all our $ on forwards and d, and let's just pick up goalies ala Tampa bay, flyers and Toronto. Excellent game plan.
Flyers is spending good $ on goalie.

Toronto finally made the playoff, with cheap goalies, while they wasnt able to do it with higher paid one Giguere (6 000 000$) and Toskala (4 000 000$) some years ago.

Chicago, LA, Washington, Boston, San jose, Toronto are actually doing well without spending more than 4 500 000$ on both their goalie combined.

Of course we can always point to Florida, Tampa having horrible season.

i would reply Carolina too, "Yeah but ward got injured", "Theodore did too" etc.....

Well, i prefer to wait at the end of the season, to compile stats from all teams and see if there is a correlation between the % of the budget spend on goalies and the success of a team.

In the past 2 seasons, this correlation was negative: lesser was the % of their budget allowed on goalie, more they had success. Note that it wasn't a perfect correlation nor a strong one. But i believe a GM should push every little edge he can find. So i dont mean its the end of all, but they should take it into account.


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04-24-2013, 08:10 PM
  #732
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Philly picking up bryz at retarted salary was reaction to a failed philosophy of undermining the importance of consistence in goaltending position. Which is what you guys are advocating. Prior to carter trade, if flyers had a actual starting goalie, they prbly would of one a few cups.
Difference between price and the multiple backups that are having hot seasons, is that when those goalies are not hot, they stink hard. While probably bad timing, price has been stinking it out more then ever, he brings consistency and comfort to the team.

But yeah, if you guys are in the mindset of wanting to swap brobovski with price right now, we shouldn't be having this convo

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04-24-2013, 08:10 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
... I can't even.
So if their goaltending has been worse.. then the leafs are heck of a team to overcome that difference.

Except they're not that good.

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04-24-2013, 08:11 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You guys don't want to acknowledge it but Palindrom has a really good point. For a team that spends to the cap, money is invested much better in a foward or dman than a goalie.

There are two reasons for this.

#1 Goalie performances fluctuate ridiculously
#2 There are only 30 #1 spots, and there are more and more quality goaltenders. As a result, nearly every team has a goalie that is currently doing very well OR who is a big name and has done well in the past.

Logically, and I'm not saying this is the case, but if there are 30 really good goalies and no phenoms, the team paying the most for their goalie would be at a disadvantage compared to the team that would pay the least considering there wouldn't be much difference between the #30 and the #1.
Thank for the support, i still have to add some comment:

Internet budget work as a cap for many team, so no only teams spending to the cap benefit from allowing more of their budget on defense/forwards rather than goalies.

I have said it before, but this strategy is only valid for the current goaltender market. There are indeed more parity between goalies nowadays than there was in the 80' and 90'.

I also believe that defensive system evolved in a way that goalies performance doesn't matter as much as in the past.

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04-24-2013, 08:20 PM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Philly picking up bryz at retarted salary was reaction to a failed philosophy of undermining the importance of consistence in goaltending position. Which is what you guys are advocating. Prior to carter trade, if flyers had a actual starting goalie, they prbly would of one a few cups.
Difference between price and the multiple backups that are having hot seasons, is that when those goalies are not hot, they stink hard. While probably bad timing, price has been stinking it out more then ever, he brings consistency and comfort to the team.

But yeah, if you guys are in the mindset of wanting to swap brobovski with price right now, we shouldn't be having this convo
Yet the Flyers are less successful since they have acquired an "actual starting goalie" in Bryzgalov.....

I guess many teams would love their philosophy to fail as much as making the stanley cup final/winning the cup with a cheap goalie.

2006: Carolina - Ward (684 000$) / Edmonton - Roloson (1 672 000$)
2007: Anaheim - Giguere (3 990 000$) / Ottawa - Emery (925 000$)
2008: Detroit - Osgood (800 000$) / Pittsburg - Fleury (1 3000 000$)
2009: Pittsburg - Fleury (5 000 000$ / Detroit - Osgood (1 500 000$)
2010: Chicago - Niemi (826 875$) / Philadelphia - Leighton (600 000$)
2011: Boston - Thomas (5 000 000$) / Vancouver - Luongo (5 333 333$)
2012: LA - Quick (1 800 000$) / NJ - Brodeur (5 200 000$)

if the flyers had a 6 000 000$ goalies in 2010-2011 it could also mean they dont have the cap space for a Pronger or a Briere (23gp 12g 18a 30p) in the playoff.

Well, Buffalo did keep Miller and let Briere go (in 2007). They did make the playoff only twice since, getting an exit in the first round. (Beaten by the same flyers with a cheap goalie in 2011). Well, i dont see how "keeping our elite goalie at all price" is a more successful philosophy. (Carolina didnt do well since ward earn 6 000 000+) (Neither Calgary with Kiprusoff).


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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Old
04-24-2013, 08:21 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Thank for the support, i still have to add some comment:

Internet budget work as a cap for many team, so no only teams spending to the cap benefit from allowing more of their budget on defense/forwards rather than goalies.

I have said it before, but this strategy is only valid for the current goaltender market. There are indeed more parity between goalies nowadays than there was in the 80' and 90'.

I also believe that defensive system evolved in a way that goalies performance doesn't matter as much as in the past.
I think you have a valid point worth discussing. People are dismissing it but can't even be bothered bringing one good argument to the table. If we currently had two 2M goalies, people would be a lot more inclined to listen to this. It's sad that discussion is shot down summarily just because the conclusion isn't to one's liking.

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04-24-2013, 08:29 PM
  #737
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I think cap considerations are a complete sidebar. End of the day, you are either happy with your goaltending, or unhappy with it. If you're paying $7M on the cap and your goalie is Lundqvist, you're happy and you don't begrudge having a big cap allotment on the position in the least. If you are getting the job done with ELC guys or cheap options, great, bonus, but sooner or later they are going to get paid if they're doing the job... and again you don't begrudge it one bit. Looking for cap bargains has a limited shelf life at best.

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04-24-2013, 08:37 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Philly picking up bryz at retarted salary was reaction to a failed philosophy of undermining the importance of consistence in goaltending position. Which is what you guys are advocating. Prior to carter trade, if flyers had a actual starting goalie, they prbly would of one a few cups.
Difference between price and the multiple backups that are having hot seasons, is that when those goalies are not hot, they stink hard. While probably bad timing, price has been stinking it out more then ever, he brings consistency and comfort to the team.

But yeah, if you guys are in the mindset of wanting to swap brobovski with price right now, we shouldn't be having this convo
Ironically, if the flyers had decided to stay true to their philosophy of undermining the importance of goaltending, they'd have kept Brobovsky and not spent too much on Bryz and would be better off as a result.

But also, I can't speak for Palindrom, but the philosophy is not to say goaltending is not important. You do not understand at all. The philosophy is to say that even if you spend the big bucks on goaltending, there is no guarantee that you will get your money's worth because goaltending performances fluctuates too much, and also because no names constantly shoots at the top and can have a good season out of nowhere. Another important point is that systems and the quality of a team is very important to the performance of a goalie.

A goalie like Price is not offering quality seasons after quality season. There's one goalie who's consistently top 5 every seasons and it's Lundqvist.

Quote:
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I think cap considerations are a complete sidebar. End of the day, you are either happy with your goaltending, or unhappy with it. If you're paying $7M on the cap and your goalie is Lundqvist, you're happy and you don't begrudge having a big cap allotment on the position in the least. If you are getting the job done with ELC guys or cheap options, great, bonus, but sooner or later they are going to get paid if they're doing the job... and again you don't begrudge it one bit. Looking for cap bargains has a limited shelf life at best.
Interesting that you mentionned Lundqvist since he's the only one consistently performing at a top 5 level.

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04-24-2013, 08:44 PM
  #739
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... I can't even.
If you actually followed their performances instead of relying on reputation for an answer you wouldn't be so surprised. TO's goaltending has been much better than ours.

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04-24-2013, 08:46 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think cap considerations are a complete sidebar. End of the day, you are either happy with your goaltending, or unhappy with it. If you're paying $7M on the cap and your goalie is Lundqvist, you're happy and you don't begrudge having a big cap allotment on the position in the least. If you are getting the job done with ELC guys or cheap options, great, bonus, but sooner or later they are going to get paid if they're doing the job... and again you don't begrudge it one bit. Looking for cap bargains has a limited shelf life at best.
Of course using Lundqvist is a nice selected example, But if we are looking at the whole picture...

Giguere at 6 000 000$ with the duck, Luongo now with Vancouver, Kiprusoff at 5 833 333$ and having an horrible season. Bryzgalov with the Flyers, the Miller trade rumor. Quick is having an average season and will get a good raise while some fan wonder if they would rather ride Bernier. This thread alone is an example we have doubt about Price. Remember Khalibulin in Chicago ? While Rinne is not having a bad season, he is not giving the kind of performance who earned him his contract.

And what about Huet? Dipietro?

ok, i only took a look at one side of the picture....but if we look at the whole picture, are teams more satisfied than not with their big, long term goalies contracts ?

How many teams are actually happy with their cheap unpredictable rotating goalies versus the one who aren't?


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04-24-2013, 08:55 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Of course using Lundqvist is a nice selected example, But if we are looking at the whole picture...

Giguere at 6 000 000$ with the duck, Luongo now with Vancouver, Kiprusoff at 5 833 333$ and having an horrible season. Bryzgalov with the Flyers, the Miller trade rumor. Quick is having an average season and will get a good raise while some fan wonder if they would rather ride Bernier. This thread alone is an example we have doubt about Price. Remember Khalibulin in Chicago ?

And what about Huet? Dipietro?

ok, i only took a look at one side of the picture....but if we look at the whole picture, are teams more satisfied than not with their big, long term goalies contracts ?

How many teams are actually happy with their cheap unpredictable rotating goalies versus the one who aren't?
I agree with the point you and E=CH2 are trying to make. Generally speaking, you're getting a more predictable bang for your buck when you invest your cap space on premium forwards and D-men compared to big-name goaltending. There is more variability in the performance of your goaltending on a year-to-year basis (except maybe Lundqvist), and there is more parity amongst the top 30 goalies in today's game. Price is overpaid by about 1.5M/year, so it's not the end of the world, but the argument you guys are making is definitely worth examining in more depth, and shouldn't be dismissed the way most other people are dismissing it.

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04-24-2013, 09:10 PM
  #742
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Aaaaaand Palindrom returns with the same old arguments. I swear I should keep a text file with all the arguments against around.

He was laying in ambush waiting for Price to have a bad sequence. We sure won't hear about all of that stuff when Price leads us to playoff wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NRG87
I agree with the point you and E=CH2 are trying to make. Generally speaking, you're getting a more predictable bang for your buck when you invest your cap space on premium forwards and D-men compared to big-name goaltending. There is more variability in the performance of your goaltending on a year-to-year basis (except maybe Lundqvist), and there is more parity amongst the top 30 goalies in today's game. Price is overpaid by about 1.5M/year, so it's not the end of the world, but the argument you guys are making is definitely worth examining in more depth, and shouldn't be dismissed the way most other people are dismissing it.
And there is at least one massively overpaid forward or defensemen on nearly every NHL roster. Is there a difference?


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04-24-2013, 09:18 PM
  #743
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Aaaaaand Palindrom returns with the same old arguments. I swear I should keep a text file with all the arguments against around.
You are welcome.

I dont pretend i am right, but having people who argue against you is one of the best way to force us to take a second look and refine a philosophy.

Sometime, out of all this can emerge a better understanding of the mechanic behind hockey management.

I remember after the 2005 lockout, it took some time for peoples to realize the "players can have negative value" concept. But its well accepted now.

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04-24-2013, 09:21 PM
  #744
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And there is at least one massively overpaid forward or defensemen on nearly every NHL roster. Is there a difference?
Yes there is.

Even if they are massively overpaid, they usually outperform the average forward/defenseman. While many overpaid goalie doesn't outperform the average goalie.

The average forwards scored 18-20p so far this seasons. How many overpaid 5 000 000$+ didnt do that?
The average goalie had a saves % of .910% so far this season.

Edit, so far i counted Grabovsky with 17p, any other? (who didn't miss too much game to injury)

about the goalie, Rinne have exactly .910, Backstrom, Ward, Price, Brodeur, Bryzgalov, Kiprusoff are under it. Well, it mean that 50-60% of the top ten paid goalies in the league have a saves % under the average goalie (well, they face more pressure, face greater opposition, but still, so does elite forward...).


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 10:17 PM.
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04-24-2013, 09:44 PM
  #745
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I was entirely "happy" with Price at $6.5M... a couple weeks ago. Now... well it's still just 2 weeks. I expect Pittsburgh and Anaheim are satisfied with high-priced goaltending. It's not just Lundqvist. End of the day, it still all comes down to whether teams are happy campers or unhappy campers. The teams which are unhappy campers with bargain goaltending would be very happy to shell out $7M and become happy campers. (Which is of course why you end up with the intersection set of unhappy/expensive campers - like Philly). But end of the day, everybody wants to be happy with their goaltending, and they aren't worried about the cap hit it takes to get there. I don't think you design for good/cheap goaltending. You design for GOOD goaltending. Cheap is just a bonus, but not the priority.

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04-24-2013, 09:46 PM
  #746
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I was entirely "happy" with Price at $6.5M... a couple weeks ago. Now... well it's still just 2 weeks. I expect Pittsburgh and Anaheim are satisfied with high-priced goaltending. It's not just Lundqvist. End of the day, it still all comes down to whether teams are happy campers or unhappy campers. The teams which are unhappy campers with bargain goaltending would be very happy to shell out $7M and become happy campers. (Which is of course why you end up with the intersection set of unhappy/expensive campers - like Philly). But end of the day, everybody wants to be happy with their goaltending, and they aren't worried about the cap hit it takes to get there. I don't think you design for good/cheap goaltending. You design for GOOD goaltending. Cheap is just a bonus, but not the priority.
so why Luongo is still with Vancouver then?

Why no one was willing to give UFA Vokoun or Nabokov a good contract (even short term) after solid year (Vokoun had the best post-lookout saves % among all active goalies in 2011 when he did become UFA.) (Nabokov had a 71gp, 44win, .922% in 2009-2010 before hititng the UFA market.).

Why did Chicago let Niemi become an UFA (instead of paying him a mere 2 750 000$ arbitration) after he helped them win the cup?


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 09:53 PM.
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04-24-2013, 09:46 PM
  #747
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If you actually followed their performances instead of relying on reputation for an answer you wouldn't be so surprised. TO's goaltending has been much better than ours.
Mirror, *****.

Yes, I am 10 years old.

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04-24-2013, 09:49 PM
  #748
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so why Luongo is still with Vancouver then?
'Cuz he's not just $7M. If he was a UFA and asking $7M for 3 years, teams would take him. If it takes trade assets and you have him until he's 43, that's a different story, of course. Cap isn't a non-factor. It's just not the be-all-end-all.

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04-24-2013, 10:02 PM
  #749
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'Cuz he's not just $7M. If he was a UFA and asking $7M for 3 years, teams would take him. If it takes trade assets and you have him until he's 43, that's a different story, of course. Cap isn't a non-factor. It's just not the be-all-end-all.
So The teams which are unhappy campers with bargain goaltending would be very happy to shell out $7M and become happy campers.

But they would not be happy to trade asset (rumored 2 x 2nd) to acquire a 5 333 333$ one.

i just dont know....the step doesnt seem that big...

..or maybe it have something to do with the chance that even if they doesn't do anything, there is a non negligible chance they will become happy with their cheap goalie or the chance that even an high paid goalie with good reputation wont necessary bring them happiness. (Khalibulin, Huet, Bryzgalov).

btw i like all this whole happiness thing, it bring me joy just writing the word. Well, time for me to sleep, enough arguing for today.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-24-2013 at 10:10 PM.
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04-24-2013, 10:03 PM
  #750
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Mirror, *****.

Yes, I am 10 years old.
Nice. I believe you

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