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04-22-2013, 05:57 PM
  #376
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Maybe we are, but due to all the trashtalking, homerism, and overhyped from Blues fans the last couple of seasons, I don't think we're being homers over Shattenkirk.

Also IMO besides #27, Polak has been the second best defender on that team and something our team desperately lacks.
This is simply untrue. Shattenkirk and Polak are both sheltered to similar degrees but Shattenkirk absolutely dominates his weaker opposition out there in terms of possession (leads the team by a huge degree in terms of On ice Corsi and Relative Corsi). Both have near identical On Ice SV% (0.915 vs 0.916). Shattenkirk however does however finish in the defensive zone 10% more often than he starts which is quite poor.

Interestingly, Tyson Barrie has been less sheltered for us this year than Shatty (but still 6th in rel QoC on our team including Wilson and SOB), and finishes in the offensive zone 6% more often than he starts. He also has a pretty good On ice Corsi (5.61) and a great Relative Corsi (11.2) suggesting that he is by far our best Dman in terms of possession.

Tyson Barrie has been more or less played as a 2nd pairing guy for us and numbers told has performed quite well. Elliott on the other hand is still very much being used as a sheltered bottom pairing guy and that's ok. Shane O'brien has actually performed quite very well in his role by the numbers and I'm perplexed as to why he sits out while Zanon plays. SOB is the much better bottom pairing option.

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04-22-2013, 06:05 PM
  #377
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Shane O'brien has actually performed quite very well in his role by the numbers and I'm perplexed as to why he sits out while Zanon plays. SOB is the much better bottom pairing option.
It's not so perplexing when you realize Sacco only uses "compete level" (God, I hate that term) as the measure of a player's worth. Forget actual ability, forget stupid mistakes and/or turnovers, if they so much as look like they're loafing or don't come into a rushed mini-camp following a lockout in tip-top condition, they're in the Sacco doghouse.

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04-22-2013, 08:13 PM
  #378
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It's not so perplexing when you realize Sacco only uses "compete level" (God, I hate that term) as the measure of a player's worth. Forget actual ability, forget stupid mistakes and/or turnovers, if they so much as look like they're loafing or don't come into a rushed mini-camp following a lockout in tip-top condition, they're in the Sacco doghouse.
This, this, and THIS...

It used to be a joke that Sacco favored no-skill grinders, but it isn't funny anymore because it's clearly true. The conspiracy theory turned out to be correct.

I want to put that mofo on a burning stake every time I see Mitchell, Zannon, and Hunwick out on the power-play.

Then to a lesser extent when I see Hunwick on the penalty kill trying defend in front of the net.

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04-22-2013, 08:31 PM
  #379
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Sacco isn't just about 'no skill grinders' he basically rewards players that are loyal to him. That's his scheme from what I've seen.

Hunwick was the ever faithful scratch guy that worked his way to first pairing minutes because he didn't give Sacco crap over scratching him and worked hard to get back into the NHL and made an impact at the end of last season. Sacco reciprocates that loyalty with unquestioning faith in the player and blinds himself to their faults.

John Mitchell almost every single game turns the puck over at the point, but doesn't and eventually he's going to cost us a goal over those stupid 200ft skates. But Sacco doesn't care, he cameback out and scored after taking a puck to the face, that's loyalty.

To some degree, a coach has to reward loyalty and hardwork, but Sacco takes it to a whole new level.

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04-22-2013, 08:45 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Sacco isn't just about 'no skill grinders' he basically rewards players that are loyal to him. That's his scheme from what I've seen.

Hunwick was the ever faithful scratch guy that worked his way to first pairing minutes because he didn't give Sacco crap over scratching him and worked hard to get back into the NHL and made an impact at the end of last season. Sacco reciprocates that loyalty with unquestioning faith in the player and blinds himself to their faults.

John Mitchell almost every single game turns the puck over at the point, but doesn't and eventually he's going to cost us a goal over those stupid 200ft skates. But Sacco doesn't care, he cameback out and scored after taking a puck to the face, that's loyalty.

To some degree, a coach has to reward loyalty and hardwork, but Sacco takes it to a whole new level.
Why does EJ's ice time never seem to rise when hes playing well then? He should of started to move into 24 minutes a night with the way he was playing to start the season, but he only has 5 games at 24 minutes or better.

In fact, EJ didn't play 24 minutes this season until Feb 27th...

I see what you're saying, but that only seems to apply if you're a 3rd/4th line player. And for whatever reason it really applies if your a veteran defender.

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04-22-2013, 08:51 PM
  #381
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Why does EJ's ice time never seem to rise when hes playing well then? He should of started to move into 24 minutes a night with the way he was playing to start the season, but he only has 5 games at 24 minutes or better.

In fact, EJ didn't play 24 minutes this season until Feb 27th...

I see what you're saying, but that only seems to apply if you're a 3rd/4th line player. And for whatever reason it really applies if your a veteran defender.
Because EJ doesn't respond to Sacco nor does he listen to Sacco. If EJ were playing the way Sacco wanted him to, he'd be sacrificing his body to block shots, drop passing to the last defender back () and turning over the puck in the neutral zone.

EJ, for whatever reason, loses ice time whenever he is playing well. Probably because of that careless attitude he gets where he disregards the plan and just carries it up and controls the play himself. Sacco wants more cycling and EJ just wants to create a puck battle in front of the net.

If you look at O'Reilly, Duchene, etc. They've gained ice time in the past when they've bought into Sacco's system.

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04-22-2013, 09:03 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Because EJ doesn't respond to Sacco nor does he listen to Sacco. If EJ were playing the way Sacco wanted him to, he'd be sacrificing his body to block shots, drop passing to the last defender back () and turning over the puck in the neutral zone.

EJ, for whatever reason, loses ice time whenever he is playing well. Probably because of that careless attitude he gets where he disregards the plan and just carries it up and controls the play himself. Sacco wants more cycling and EJ just wants to create a puck battle in front of the net.

If you look at O'Reilly, Duchene, etc. They've gained ice time in the past when they've bought into Sacco's system.
Rotfl, very well put. Sacco =

(Gawd I wish I had more faith that hes going to be fired, sadly I don't.)

Edit: What do you think about Gonchar on a one year 5M deal? I think he'd be good for both EJ and Varly, apparently Malkin credits Gonchar for helping him adjust. Varly is probably fine there but it wouldn't be bad to have one more Russian in the dressing room if it would help with his mental state.

Gonchar is tearing it up since taking over as the top dog in OTT after Karlsson's injury.


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04-22-2013, 11:12 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Because EJ doesn't respond to Sacco nor does he listen to Sacco. If EJ were playing the way Sacco wanted him to, he'd be sacrificing his body to block shots, drop passing to the last defender back () and turning over the puck in the neutral zone.

EJ, for whatever reason, loses ice time whenever he is playing well. Probably because of that careless attitude he gets where he disregards the plan and just carries it up and controls the play himself. Sacco wants more cycling and EJ just wants to create a puck battle in front of the net.

If you look at O'Reilly, Duchene, etc. They've gained ice time in the past when they've bought into Sacco's system.
I'm a big believer in EJ being a much better D with a better coach and D partner, but holy hell is he bad at that drop pass thing on the PP. He's been mildly better this year, but that's because he's rarely on the PP anymore using it ,and he's still not that good.

He either just leaves the puck dead on the ice with the opposing forward closer to it than the D, or sends a hard pass way off mark without looking. It's really one of the most retarded things I've seen.

He just doesn't have a strong hockey IQ, he needs a partner to do all the thinking and set him up for plays with time and space to use his natural talent.

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04-23-2013, 09:36 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Edit: What do you think about Gonchar on a one year 5M deal? I think he'd be good for both EJ and Varly, apparently Malkin credits Gonchar for helping him adjust. Varly is probably fine there but it wouldn't be bad to have one more Russian in the dressing room if it would help with his mental state.
I've thought about him too. Even though he will be 40 by the end of next season, I think he could bring some value. His on ice play might be an issue at times, but hopefully he could make himself invaluable by mentoring all the younger guys. If he could help teach Elliott/Barrie/EJ how to be more offensively productive, he could be a really good signing.

This is where Sherman soiled the bed on the EJ trade. He pretty much acquired him expecting him to be a legit #1 guy, even though he still had and does have a lot to learn. Problem is he surrounded him with a special ed. class. I would venture to bet he has had little to no useful insight on how to be a better player the last two years. Who would have taught it to him? The defensive stalwart's Zannon, O'Byrne, O'Brien, and Hejda? Or the offensive juggernauts of Quincey and Hunwick? Maybe the career high 29 point grinder coach taught him some valuable tricks to being a better defenceman. This is where Gonchar could prove to be very valuable.

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04-23-2013, 11:27 AM
  #385
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I've thought about him too. Even though he will be 40 by the end of next season, I think he could bring some value. His on ice play might be an issue at times, but hopefully he could make himself invaluable by mentoring all the younger guys. If he could help teach Elliott/Barrie/EJ how to be more offensively productive, he could be a really good signing.

This is where Sherman soiled the bed on the EJ trade. He pretty much acquired him expecting him to be a legit #1 guy, even though he still had and does have a lot to learn. Problem is he surrounded him with a special ed. class. I would venture to bet he has had little to no useful insight on how to be a better player the last two years. Who would have taught it to him? The defensive stalwart's Zannon, O'Byrne, O'Brien, and Hejda? Or the offensive juggernauts of Quincey and Hunwick? Maybe the career high 29 point grinder coach taught him some valuable tricks to being a better defenceman. This is where Gonchar could prove to be very valuable.
Yeah I think he'd be great for our defense, the team in general, and may even give Varlamov a boost.

Scuds & Gonchar together could have a long term impact on our defense even if they were only around a year or two.

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04-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #386
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Rotfl, very well put. Sacco =

(Gawd I wish I had more faith that hes going to be fired, sadly I don't.)

Edit: What do you think about Gonchar on a one year 5M deal? I think he'd be good for both EJ and Varly, apparently Malkin credits Gonchar for helping him adjust. Varly is probably fine there but it wouldn't be bad to have one more Russian in the dressing room if it would help with his mental state.

Gonchar is tearing it up since taking over as the top dog in OTT after Karlsson's injury.
I don't think it'd be a bad idea, if they can't find a trade out there for a younger offensive D. He's at a 50 point pace this year, and plays on the left side. That alone would be a huge benefit, not to mention bringing in a comrade for Varly to lean on.

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04-24-2013, 10:43 AM
  #387
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This is simply untrue. Shattenkirk and Polak are both sheltered to similar degrees but Shattenkirk absolutely dominates his weaker opposition out there in terms of possession (leads the team by a huge degree in terms of On ice Corsi and Relative Corsi). Both have near identical On Ice SV% (0.915 vs 0.916). Shattenkirk however does however finish in the defensive zone 10% more often than he starts which is quite poor.
You can say that Shattenkirk gets the softest minutes and opponents out of their top 4 defensemen and it's making him look great. Also take in that Polak (Does he play PP as well?) plays the PK unit where Shattenkirk isn't located on with much more defensive faceoffs than him.

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04-24-2013, 10:55 AM
  #388
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You can say that Shattenkirk gets the softest minutes and opponents out of their top 4 defensemen and it's making him look great. Also take in that Polak (Does he play PP as well?) plays the PK unit where Shattenkirk isn't located on with much more defensive faceoffs than him.
Same situation with Yandle in Phoenix.

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04-24-2013, 11:40 AM
  #389
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You can say that Shattenkirk gets the softest minutes and opponents out of their top 4 defensemen and it's making him look great. Also take in that Polak (Does he play PP as well?) plays the PK unit where Shattenkirk isn't located on with much more defensive faceoffs than him.
Wow, it is indeed hard to accept the truth about a (so far) bad trade involving the team which we support. But have we really regressed to this? 'Soft minutes'? LOL.

The guy plays legitimate 2nd pairing minutes on a team which is Top 10 in the NHL defensively. He's a solid defender.

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04-24-2013, 11:49 AM
  #390
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Wow, it is indeed hard to accept the truth about a (so far) bad trade involving the team which we support. But have we really regressed to this? 'Soft minutes'? LOL.

The guy plays legitimate 2nd pairing minutes on a team which is Top 10 in the NHL defensively. He's a solid defender.
What are you talking about? I never said he was a "bad" defenseman, what I am stating is Hitchcock's system and playing time in good situation is making him look better than he is. As Robin said, it's happeneing to Yandle as well.

That said I would still love him if he was still on our team.

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04-24-2013, 09:58 PM
  #391
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I'm concerned about EJ. When he was first traded here, he looked really good and was impressed with him. Last year he didn't really do anything special, but we assumed he is still developing. This year he (the whole team outside of Duchene and Parenteau really) has been pretty bad. Ill give him the benefit of the doubt because Sacco is still the head coach, but he has been very underwhelming. I certainly hope he is able to reach the potential so many saw in him.

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04-24-2013, 11:22 PM
  #392
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I honestly dont want to judge this guy until we get a new coach. If hes the same or worse under a new coach then im gonna start railing on him again.

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04-24-2013, 11:40 PM
  #393
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What are you talking about? I never said he was a "bad" defenseman, what I am stating is Hitchcock's system and playing time in good situation is making him look better than he is. As Robin said, it's happeneing to Yandle as well.

That said I would still love him if he was still on our team.
You don't think he's bad but you think Polak, who is essentially a bottom pairing guy, is better than him?

The 1-2 transition punch of Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk is a big part of what makes Hitchcock's system work and is a big part of why the Blues are such a good possession team. Obviously he's in a better situation there than he would be here but I find it a little homerish to undersell the importance he has to the Blues. Its not as simple as, oh he's sheltered and puts up points. He's not Liles out there.

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04-24-2013, 11:41 PM
  #394
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Wow, it is indeed hard to accept the truth about a (so far) bad trade involving the team which we support. But have we really regressed to this? 'Soft minutes'? LOL.

The guy plays legitimate 2nd pairing minutes on a team which is Top 10 in the NHL defensively. He's a solid defender.
Shattenkirk plays against the second-easiest matchups that Hitchcock can get him against (only Russell gets easier matchups) while starting 57% of his shifts in the offensive zone. He's second in PP time on ice while being fifth in PK time on ice for Blues dmen. Regardless of his defensive acumen, he's getting about the softest minutes a defenseman can in the NHL short of being Marc-Andre Bergeron.

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04-25-2013, 09:56 AM
  #395
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Shattenkirk plays against the second-easiest matchups that Hitchcock can get him against (only Russell gets easier matchups) while starting 57% of his shifts in the offensive zone. He's second in PP time on ice while being fifth in PK time on ice for Blues dmen. Regardless of his defensive acumen, he's getting about the softest minutes a defenseman can in the NHL short of being Marc-Andre Bergeron.
LOL. What's next? Shattenkirk chews grape gum between periods, which clearly shows he can't play defense? Shattenkirk wears different colored socks during games, which clearly shows XYZ players are better? I love all of this over-analysis (if I can call it that). Not terribly pertinent, but very entertaining nonetheless.

In the end, there are these things called hockey games going on. And we have a player playing well on a successful team in those games.

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04-25-2013, 10:06 AM
  #396
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Why can't we all agree that Shattenkirk is a very good defensemen (legit #3/4) who gets sheltered minutes? He is absolutely great offensively and can QB a PP with the best of them. He is a little weak in his own zone, but his coach is smart enough to only put him in where he will succeed and his defense is no worse than your average PMD.

As long as Shattenkirk doesn't have to log the heavy minutes that Piet and JayBo do (ie both don't get injured), he will continue to look great and put up good numbers. If he has to take over top pairing responsibilities, he will be exposed as a pure middle pairing guy. And that is why the Avs traded him for EJ, Shattenkirk just doesn't have the makeup of a #1 defender while EJ does. EJ still has a long ways to go to get there, but Shattenkirk will never get there.

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04-25-2013, 10:11 AM
  #397
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Why can't we all agree that Shattenkirk is a very good defensemen (legit #3/4) who gets sheltered minutes? He is absolutely great offensively and can QB a PP with the best of them. He is a little weak in his own zone, but his coach is smart enough to only put him in where he will succeed and his defense is no worse than your average PMD.

As long as Shattenkirk doesn't have to log the heavy minutes that Piet and JayBo do (ie both don't get injured), he will continue to look great and put up good numbers. If he has to take over top pairing responsibilities, he will be exposed as a pure middle pairing guy. And that is why the Avs traded him for EJ, Shattenkirk just doesn't have the makeup of a #1 defender while EJ does. EJ still has a long ways to go to get there, but Shattenkirk will never get there.
EJ may never get there aswell.

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04-25-2013, 10:13 AM
  #398
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EJ may never get there aswell.
That is very true, but he at least has the talent to get there if he can put it together. That was the point of the trade, to get a player with that talent level.

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04-25-2013, 10:40 AM
  #399
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Because EJ doesn't respond to Sacco nor does he listen to Sacco. If EJ were playing the way Sacco wanted him to, he'd be sacrificing his body to block shots, drop passing to the last defender back () and turning over the puck in the neutral zone.
Actually he is very good at that.

Quote:
EJ, for whatever reason, loses ice time whenever he is playing well. Probably because of that careless attitude he gets where he disregards the plan and just carries it up and controls the play himself. Sacco wants more cycling and EJ just wants to create a puck battle in front of the net.
LOL... that's is simply NOT TRUE... whenever he played with that reckless abandon he was rewarded with MORE ice time. Problem is that EJ rarely did that. Most nights he didn't look that much better then the other defensemen on this team. Maybe if he didn't SUCK so much on the PP he would've gotten more ice time.

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If you look at O'Reilly, Duchene, etc. They've gained ice time in the past when they've bought into Sacco's system.
So, that means they got more ice time whenever they played their worst, right??

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04-25-2013, 10:47 AM
  #400
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You don't think he's bad but you think Polak, who is essentially a bottom pairing guy, is better than him?
Polak a bottom pairing defensemen? Now that is laughable, he is a legitimate top 4 defenseman.

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