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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

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Old
04-24-2013, 10:47 PM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
We overachieved and the stars were aligned last year. Classifying last year's team as elite is a joke!
You don't have to convince me. I loved a lot of things about last year, but looking at the rest of our finishes with Torts at the helm, it's hard to look at it as anything but an anomaly.

08-09 7th
09-10 Missed
10-11 8th
11-12 1st
This year (so far) 7th

I REALLY want to believe this team can succeed the way it did last year, but they've made it really hard this year.

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04-24-2013, 11:01 PM
  #802
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Ones that specialize in producing on the PP. He had 16 and 17 PP goals those two years. And also ones that have a ridiculous 17.4 and 18.6 shot percentages.

They were a 2c and 3C on their respective teams. Fact. They came here, were put in roles they shouldn't have been put in, and failed. It's not revisionist.
Didn't realize you don't like powerplay goals all of a sudden. And as for shooting percentage, he did it twice in a row so that's makes it less likely a fluke. As for the roles they actually played, how is being incredibly effective on the PP and PK a negative?

And anyway, you didn't say they were a 2c and 3c on their teams (which is bogus in itself) you said they were in general bad 2cs, good 3cs. That means there were 60 better centers in the NHL the preceding years. That's wrong.

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04-24-2013, 11:07 PM
  #803
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Rangers were ELITE last year? Hahaha

Ridiculous. The defense was elite, sure. The offense was putrid, just like it is now. That is not an elite team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
We overachieved and the stars were aligned last year. Classifying last year's team as elite is a joke!
Elite:
singular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase>
-Merriam-Webster

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04-24-2013, 11:17 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Elite:
singular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase>
-Merriam-Webster
OK
"Best of the class" in one regular season out of four
Expelled to playing golf once and on the bridge twice more into even making the post seasons club.
Knocked out into the hallway to detention by A student slackers as in the Devils in the Conference Finals
Last year

One good test does not a Valdictorian make

Look at the big picture for the Torts era
Hardly elite results

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04-24-2013, 11:35 PM
  #805
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This. Gomez and Drury were both 1st line players before putting on the Bluershirt. Drury a 3rd line C? lol What 3rd line Cs score 37 goals
well we have a 3rd line RW who scored 29 goals, so i guess anythings possible.

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04-24-2013, 11:39 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Didn't realize you don't like powerplay goals all of a sudden. And as for shooting percentage, he did it twice in a row so that's makes it less likely a fluke. As for the roles they actually played, how is being incredibly effective on the PP and PK a negative?

And anyway, you didn't say they were a 2c and 3c on their teams (which is bogus in itself) you said they were in general bad 2cs, good 3cs. That means there were 60 better centers in the NHL the preceding years. That's wrong.
What? This idea of "there were 60 better centers" completely ignores what I said. Just because he is playing in the role of a 3C, doesn't mean he isn't in the top-60, or even top-30 for centers. Jordan Staal was a 3C for 7 years. Drury was a 3C in Buffalo the two years he was there, and he was the 3C on Colorado in his time there as well, including during their cup winning season of 2001.

He could be a 2C on an average/above average team, like he was in 08, but on top teams, like the 05-07 Sabres, and the 98-02 Avs, he is an elite-level 3rd line center. The Rangers should not be striving to be an average team, and they shouldn't expect the team to perform to an elite level if they have a player like Drury in the 1C or 2C role.

Also, I never said that PP goals were worth less than any other goals, or that I "don't like them". Don't put words in my mouth. Drury was a third line center, one who specialized in scoring on the PP, one who was an elite special teams player in general. He averaged 11:24 at ES per game that season. Both Derek Roy and Jochen Hecht averaged more at ES than Drury did. The Rangers did not play him in that role. They played him as a second line center. Just because he's successful on the PP, doesn't mean he can be a 1C, or even a 2C, on a contending team. So, essentially, they gave a third line center first line center money, and then proceeded to make him their second line center.

Gomez, simply put, is not an ideal player, period. He was sheltered heavily with New Jersey. Outside of one year where outliers were galore, he was never the #1 offensive option on that team. Even during that season, Elias was the #1 option when he was not injured. John Madden also played more than he did at ES. He was heavily sheltered, and played against weaker competition in comparison to other 'big time' point producers in the league. The Rangers decided that he would be fit to be the first line center on their team. Great decision, obviously. He produced in his first season, but even then, the team was 25th in scoring. His second season, although his numbers were OK, he was a liability. The Rangers finished 28th in the league in offense that season.

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04-25-2013, 08:18 AM
  #807
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Personally, Im not quite sure why the seasonal finishes are much of an indictment on Tortorella. This season was strange and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Last year, I think, was a massive overachievement, and the previous years were on par with what I'd have expected.

The roster construction is what has been a mess thanks to Mr. Glen Sather. Years and years of trying to acquire talent and depth, but never quite harnessing both.

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04-25-2013, 08:40 AM
  #808
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What? This idea of "there were 60 better centers" completely ignores what I said. Just because he is playing in the role of a 3C, doesn't mean he isn't in the top-60, or even top-30 for centers. Jordan Staal was a 3C for 7 years. Drury was a 3C in Buffalo the two years he was there, and he was the 3C on Colorado in his time there as well, including during their cup winning season of 2001.

He could be a 2C on an average/above average team, like he was in 08, but on top teams, like the 05-07 Sabres, and the 98-02 Avs, he is an elite-level 3rd line center. The Rangers should not be striving to be an average team, and they shouldn't expect the team to perform to an elite level if they have a player like Drury in the 1C or 2C role.

Also, I never said that PP goals were worth less than any other goals, or that I "don't like them". Don't put words in my mouth. Drury was a third line center, one who specialized in scoring on the PP, one who was an elite special teams player in general. He averaged 11:24 at ES per game that season. Both Derek Roy and Jochen Hecht averaged more at ES than Drury did. The Rangers did not play him in that role. They played him as a second line center. Just because he's successful on the PP, doesn't mean he can be a 1C, or even a 2C, on a contending team. So, essentially, they gave a third line center first line center money, and then proceeded to make him their second line center.

They overpaid for both Drury and Gomez who were already making $5m per year respectively. What was the alternative? Resign Nylander for $5m/5y which would mean giving the equivalent to Jagr? People rant and rave about the Drury/Gomez signings but offer no real alternative....

Drury

05-06 – led the team in goals, 2nd overall in pts @67
06-07 – 2nd in goals @ 37 3rd in pts @69

Drury was coming to NYR as a “clutch” performer having had huge playoff performances in both those years knocking us out
with 7.7s in game 5. Not too mention his history with the Avs, winning the SC. You know we weren’t getting an “elite 3rd line center”!

What would a player scoring 30g/65p+ be worth in today’s market? 5.5-6M$???

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04-25-2013, 08:54 AM
  #809
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They overpaid for both Drury and Gomez who were already making $5m per year respectively. What was the alternative? Resign Nylander for $5m/5y which would mean giving the equivalent to Jagr? People rant and rave about the Drury/Gomez signings but offer no real alternative....
THERE. THERE IT IS. Youve hit on the central theme that has plagued the New York Rangers for as long as I can remember. The constant thinking that SOMETHING/ANYTHING needs to be done, and that stems from not being able to develop a franchise position player outside of the goaltender.

But yes, lets do SOMETHING, even it helps negatively effect the franchise for years to come.

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04-25-2013, 09:04 AM
  #810
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THERE. THERE IT IS. Youve hit on the central theme that has plagued the New York Rangers for as long as I can remember. The constant thinking that SOMETHING/ANYTHING needs to be done, and that stems from not being able to develop a franchise position player outside of the goaltender.

But yes, lets do SOMETHING, even it helps negatively effect the franchise for years to come.
I agree with you that the NYR inability in time past to develop their own top six talent has crippled them. Let's hope that with Stepan, Hagelin, Krieder, Miller, and others in the system that we've finally made progress in this area... R.I.P Cherepanov....

however AT THAT TIME... what would you have done? Let Nylander walk and have a young Dubinsky center Jagr? Please tell me?
because if we "did nothing" as you imply we should've, we would have proceeded to be a dreadfully bad team for 2-3 seasons.
I would have no problem with this. Missing the playoffs, drafting some top tier talent...

Hard for management to do the above with a star goalie in net like Lundqvist.

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04-25-2013, 09:06 AM
  #811
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I agree with you that the NYR inability in time past to develop their own top six talent has crippled them. Let's hope that with Stepan, Hagelin, Krieder, Miller, and others in the system that we've finally made progress in this area... R.I.P Cherepanov....

however AT THAT TIME... what would you have done? Let Nylander walk and have a young Dubinsky center Jagr? Please tell me?
Isnt that what happened anyway?

Couldve avoided allocating almost $90M to Drury and Gomez who, despite your pleads, were never elite players and never deserved that type of money.

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04-25-2013, 09:07 AM
  #812
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however AT THAT TIME... what would you have done? Let Nylander walk and have a young Dubinsky center Jagr? Please tell me?
I wouldn't have let Nylander walk. If Nylander walked, I would have focused on Briere and, missing him, only signed one of Drury or Gomez. If need be, yeah, Dubinsky would center Jagr.

By the way, the caliber of a player is only one small factor in how much a guy signs for as a UFA. Just as much of a factor is what the market is telling you about a guy. Briere, Gomez and Drury were worlds ahead of the rest of the UFA center class. They got paid as the best of what's available, not as the best players.

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04-25-2013, 09:10 AM
  #813
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I wouldn't have let Nylander walk. If Nylander walked, I would have focused on Briere and, missing him, only signed one of Drury or Gomez. If need be, yeah, Dubinsky would center Jagr.

By the way, the caliber of a player is only one small factor in how much a guy signs for as a UFA. Just as much of a factor is what the market is telling you about a guy. Briere, Gomez and Drury were worlds ahead of the rest of the UFA center class. They got paid as the best of what's available, not as the best players.
i can identify with this. I wanted Nylander to stay, with the additional of only Drury. Sather might have known that Jagr wanted big $$$ or off to Russia at that time, which is exactly what happened.

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04-25-2013, 09:25 AM
  #814
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Isnt that what happened anyway?

Couldve avoided allocating almost $90M to Drury and Gomez who, despite your pleads, were never elite players and never deserved that type of money.
that's about as relevant as Brad Isbister playing on our first line....

You still have answered what you would have done? You've side-stepped the issue and turned to cost and player worth...

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04-25-2013, 09:29 AM
  #815
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They overpaid for both Drury and Gomez who were already making $5m per year respectively. What was the alternative? Resign Nylander for $5m/5y which would mean giving the equivalent to Jagr? People rant and rave about the Drury/Gomez signings but offer no real alternative....

Drury

05-06 – led the team in goals, 2nd overall in pts @67
06-07 – 2nd in goals @ 37 3rd in pts @69

Drury was coming to NYR as a “clutch” performer having had huge playoff performances in both those years knocking us out
with 7.7s in game 5. Not too mention his history with the Avs, winning the SC. You know we weren’t getting an “elite 3rd line center”!

What would a player scoring 30g/65p+ be worth in today’s market? 5.5-6M$???
Re-sign Jagr and don't sign any1 elsejust for the sake of signing them. Or don't re-sign Jagr, Nyl, Drury or Gomez. Let the team struggle that year b/c it happens sometimes and then use the draft and a good crop of FA for 2 years. We ended up with 1 top 10 pick anyway b/c Sather had done such a horrible job that we were an all world LUCKY Jagr trade away from the absolute basement of the NHL. SHould have never made those terrible 3 signings. The terms were awful and crippling to the future and the players were well well WELL below earning what they were paid even before signing the contracts

Also Drury wasn't a Stepan who was coming into his own and carrying a team being their 1C. He was given low total ice time and a lot of PP points with a stacked unit which we did NOT have. Stats do not tell the whole story hence why we got burned badly

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04-25-2013, 09:31 AM
  #816
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that's about as relevant as Brad Isbister playing on our first line....

You still have answered what you would have done? You've side-stepped the issue and turned to cost and player worth...
Because cost and player worth are everything in a cap league.

I was in Las Vegas for my birthday when a friend texted me we signed Gomez and Drury - I'll admit I was initially pleased. Then I found out the terms and I was mortified.

I would have rather done nothing than signed those players to those deals. And, quite frankly, I was appauled that our general manager thought that team was ready to compete in 2007. Even with these acquisitions, the 2008-2009 opening night roster was the worst I'd ever seen on paper in my 25 years as a Ranger fan, and that includes the dark years.

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04-25-2013, 09:34 AM
  #817
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One of the biggest problems (if not THE biggest) with this franchise and the majority of it's fans is that they don't realize sometimes the best move you can make is no move at all. Just because a name hits the UFA market, it doesn't mean we have to throw money at him.

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04-25-2013, 09:38 AM
  #818
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One of the biggest problems (if not THE biggest) with this franchise and the majority of it's fans is that they don't realize sometimes the best move you can make is no move at all. Just because a name hits the UFA market, it doesn't mean we have to throw money at him.
Indeed. At the same time, its a catch 22. To a degree, I think the organization has bought into this nonsense that franchise players cant be cultivated unless they're drafted in the top 5, and that the Rangers will never be in the top 5. They seem to think this even though others teams have done it in the league over the past decade.

So what does that leave? Importing. And the Rangers have proved they'll import anybody so long as they're near the top of the list in any given free agent class. Even if they dont fit the roster.

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04-25-2013, 09:41 AM
  #819
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One of the biggest, if not the biggest, problems with this franchise and the majority of it's fans is that they don't realize sometimes the best move you can make is no move at all. Just because a name hits the UFA market, it doesn't mean we have to throw money at him.
Amen.

Like I've said many times, if we just would have played the cards we were dealt and not tried to change the world with proactive moves we would've been better off longterm.

Also, fans still don't get that Jagr & Nylander were not the kind of players the organization wanted moving forward. And I doubt either would've been interested in Torterella hockey.

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04-25-2013, 09:43 AM
  #820
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Because cost and player worth are everything in a cap league.

I was in Las Vegas for my birthday when a friend texted me we signed Gomez and Drury - I'll admit I was initially pleased. Then I found out the terms and I was mortified.

I would have rather done nothing than signed those players to those deals. And, quite frankly, I was appauled that our general manager thought that team was ready to compete in 2007. Even with these acquisitions, the 2008-2009 opening night roster was the worst I'd ever seen on paper in my 25 years as a Ranger fan, and that includes the dark years.
I was just thinking that in hindsight about the roster when I went back and looked at the old GDT HockeyBasedNYC linked. Puke.

I agree though. I would rather Sather do nothing at all than something just because he can or thinks he needs to. The problem is it is easy to look back and say that team never had a chance at sniffing the Cup so why did they waste assets, and abuse Cap space. Just ask the, "Anything can happen!" crowd. So long as people have the mentality that just making the playoffs is good enough, how can they even criticize Sather? He's giving them exactly what they want, a chance to win the Cup every year, no matter how infinitismally small that chance may be.

Meanwhile the rest of us suffer through mediocrity and low expectations every year and then get chastised for not being elated that once again we are bound to be disappointed in the post-season.

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04-25-2013, 09:48 AM
  #821
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how can they even criticize Sather? He's giving them exactly what they want, a chance to win the Cup every year, no matter how infinitismally small that chance may be.
The smart move is to build a team that's built for the long haul, that way you have a legitimate chance at the Cup every year.

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04-25-2013, 09:58 AM
  #822
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The smart move is to build a team that's built for the long haul, that way you have a legitimate chance at the Cup every year.
Most teams try to build for the longer haul but understand that with the modern salary capped/FA NHL there is a lot of turnover so there is no one way to build in this league. They know that they have to look at the draft, trades and FA to build their teams. They can no longer just draft and wait. That is part of the reason we have some parity and a new cup champion almost every year instead of the 3-5 year dynasties that the Habs, Isles and Oilers had in the past.

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04-25-2013, 09:58 AM
  #823
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The smart move is to build a team that's built for the long haul, that way you have a legitimate chance at the Cup every year.
It think if you read between the lines of what you wrote and you'll find my biggest issue with Sather: he doesn't look/think further than than the current season.

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04-25-2013, 10:00 AM
  #824
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One of the biggest problems (if not THE biggest) with this franchise and the majority of it's fans is that they don't realize sometimes the best move you can make is no move at all. Just because a name hits the UFA market, it doesn't mean we have to throw money at him.
Yankee syndrome.

Sometimes it's a bad thing to be the biggest fish in the pond. The biggest, most exciting city on the continent with big money and big ambitions, and a baseball team that buys up every big player on the market.


That's the funny thing - the exact same variables that work in baseball - buying ready-made players over developing home-grown talent, relying on stats, the mystique of tradition.....it's the complete opposite in hockey. I can't help but laugh at anyone who pulls out stats for hockey...hockey is a sport of controlled chaos; the worst team sport for relying on stats. And the worst sport for buying mercenaries to win a championship. Yet people still lean that way all the time.

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04-25-2013, 10:01 AM
  #825
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It think if you read between the lines of what you wrote and you'll find my biggest issue with Sather: he doesn't look/think further than than the current season.
You mean his master plan wasnt to sign Gomez so he could trade him 2 years later for McDonagh and the cap space to sign Gaborik?

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