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Explosions at Marathon Part 14

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04-25-2013, 09:57 AM
  #701
Turk 16
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Originally Posted by QC View Post
It's the CIA's definition of "blowback." Sadly some people think that if you agree with this definition, then you are justifying terrorism, which is the wrong assumption.
Yes, but he's placing his blowback theory in the context of the Chechen Wars against Russia, which follows a much different pattern than most of the examples Chalmers Johnson uses in his work. US involvement in the Chechen Wars were very limited to non-existent, and if anything we favored the insurgents, who were muslim. But there's also debate over what role, if any, jihadism played in the Chechen Wars. The roots of Chechnya's conflict with Russia goes back decades before we had a military footprint in the middle east. I think it's a real stretch to explain the Tsarnaevs' motives in terms of blowback from the Chechen wars, and those are the only "anti-western" wars they can claim any personal ties to.

Even giving the prof the benefit of the doubt, the timing of this piece was poor in the extreme.

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04-25-2013, 10:02 AM
  #702
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Spot. On. I feel sad that some people can't hear critical debate about controversial topics without getting angry or boiling the whole complicated mess down to "they" are evil and "we" are good.
I understand the emotional reaction, people get defensive, which is why I usually abstain from these types of debates on a forum; it's easy to misunderstand an argument especially when the subject-matter is of monumental complexity. But all we have to do is study Eisenhower, or American intelligence of the 20th century to get a rational understanding of this.

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04-25-2013, 10:06 AM
  #703
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Yes, but he's placing his blowback theory in the context of the Chechen Wars against Russia, which follows a much different pattern than most of the examples Chalmers Johnson uses in his work. US involvement in the Chechen Wars were very limited to non-existent, and if anything we favored the insurgents, who were muslim. But there's also debate over what role, if any, jihadism played in the Chechen Wars. The roots of Chechnya's conflict with Russia goes back decades before we had a military footprint in the middle east. I think it's a real stretch to explain the Tsarnaevs' motives in terms of blowback from the Chechen wars, and those are the only "anti-western" wars they can claim any personal ties to.

Even giving the prof the benefit of the doubt, the timing of this piece was poor in the extreme.
You are correct, when I mentioned blowblack it was more in response to the big picture (Why does this **** happen in general). Apologies if you thought I was referring to Chechnya specifically.

It's understandable to be offended by this article, because of the timing (like you said) and the fact that he is an MIT professor (one of their officers brutally executed).

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04-25-2013, 10:15 AM
  #704
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Nowhere in the article did he say that anyone deserved what happened. He seems to be more looking at root causes of the issue. I don't necessarily agree with what he says- seems to have a rather utopian outlook on the world, but he's trying to diagnose the problem. Some here have just chalked it up to evil, which ok, probably plays a part. The world definitely has bad seeds. But there's also things that can be done to prevent nurturing those bad seeds, to prevent empowering them, and he's throwing out ideas as to how he thinks that can be done.

Listen to the Yemeni guy who testified on Capitol Hill yesterday- he was saying the same thing. Look at what went on in Persia/Iran after WW1 through to the Islamic revolution to find out why we're in the situation we are with them today. Granted that was just as much the Brits as it was us, if not moreso, but these problems don't tend to just appear out of thin air.

The easy answer is to just say "they're bad, we're good", black and white, closed case. But there's more to it than that. There are no easy answers really. Like I said, I don't agree with most of what he said. Overly rosy outlook of the world, but I can't say I disagree with him trying to determine why this stuff is happening and what can be done to prevent it later on, which is what I think he was trying to do- not say we deserved it.

Just my take. I know it's probably not what people want to hear right now, but felt it had to be said.
It's implied.

I could rip apart every single argument he made. Every single one. But I'm not going to waste my time. Mai Lai? Really? He left out Native Americans, slavery, and turning away Jews during WWII. What a bigot!

The mother has made the beliefs of her son and her family pretty clear. Backed up by what Borat #2 has told authorities. 9-11 was an inside job staged by the Jews, which would so permit us to go off and arbitrarily kill Muslims in Astan, and Iraq. I read the article, too. I guess he left those well reasoned root causes out, maybe he's just not a thorough guy. Hey, it's not Harvard.

I wonder what his thoughts are on the fall of the Ottoman Empire. We were building schools, and they opted to build more mosques. Why he was likely educated in THIS country, not the one his family came from. Probably our fault, too. But I could really give a flying carpet. B/c this is all total bull****.

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04-25-2013, 10:15 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by QC View Post
You are correct, when I mentioned blowblack it was more in response to the big picture (Why does this **** happen in general). Apologies if you thought I was referring to Chechnya specifically.

It's understandable to be offended by this article, because of the timing (like you said) and the fact that he is an MIT professor (one of their officers brutally executed).
Thanks, but no apology is necessary; I didn't mean to imply you were referring to Chechnya, I was referring to Professor Rajagopal's piece, in which he conflates the Chechen wars against Russia with the "frenzy of war-making on the rest by the West," and offers this errononeous (imo) construct as a possible explanation of the Tsarnaevs' motives. I think this is a poorly thought-out and insensitively timed piece, that's all. For the record, I tend to agree with a lot (not all) of Chalmers Johnson's writing, and recommend "Nemesis" to anybody that wants to investigate these important issues, which, as you so rightly point out, are of "monumental complexity."

And you're also correct QC that this is probably not the place or time to discuss them, so I'll shut up.

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04-25-2013, 10:28 AM
  #706
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It's implied.

I could rip apart every single argument he made. Every single one. But I'm not going to waste my time. Mai Lai? Really? He left out Native Americans, slavery, and turning away Jews during WWII. What a bigot!

The mother has made the beliefs of her son and her family pretty clear. Backed up by what Borat #2 has told authorities. 9-11 was an inside job staged by the Jews, which would so permit us to go off and arbitrarily kill Muslims in Astan, and Iraq. I read the article, too. I guess he left those well reasoned root causes out, maybe he's just not a thorough guy. Hey, it's not Harvard.

I wonder what his thoughts are on the fall of the Ottoman Empire. We were building schools, and they opted to build more mosques. Why he was likely educated in THIS country, not the one his family came from. Probably our fault, too. But I could really give a flying carpet. B/c this is all total bull****.
No offense but you disagree with anyone who says anything other than that we should flay and eat whatever his name is (white hat).

Like I said, I also don't necessarily agree with a lot of what he said. And yes, the timing was poor. But I don't fault him for looking at it through the lens in which he did. I think more of that needs to be done. It's easier to address symptoms instead of the root causes.

Calling for him to be deported, calling him an idiot, or just writing off everything he says as "********" isn't really much of a counterargument.

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04-25-2013, 10:44 AM
  #707
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Thank you! We both were thinking about not going but I am glad we did. Seeing the convoy of buses and police officers transporting the officer to his final resting place and seeing RT 1 without traffic going North was numbing to say the leased. We shut the radio off in our vehicle and rode the rest of the way into Boston in silence. Just seeing RT 1 without traffic made us think that a few short days ago this city was under so much distress and uneasiness. I could not imagine what all of you were going through. Well I can a little ... having family and friends texting us back and forth filling us in on what was going on and one of my family members being only streets away from it all was scary S*** and having a dear friend's husband being an on duty officer was disturbing too. The past trips in to get to Brigham we were all pissed at the volume of traffic but this trip in it was a wonderful thing and both of us never complained once about being stuck in it. (Being from Maine your traffic issues are something else ) And to think Storrow Drive was like a deserted street days before was a little humbling as well. The sense I got from the people on the streets was they were full of pride and like the 4 people that passed away from this horrific incident they folks of this great city were going to to live and move forward in keeping their memories alive! I will never forget the faces and that day EVER! And no flipping crazy a** person is going to take my love of Boston away and the sense of easiness when I walk through the streets of her. EVER. If they do..they have won...and like hell they will!


Hope your husband gets well soon, best to you both.

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04-25-2013, 10:45 AM
  #708
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No offense but you disagree with anyone who says anything other than that we should flay and eat whatever his name is (white hat).

Like I said, I also don't necessarily agree with a lot of what he said. And yes, the timing was poor. But I don't fault him for looking at it through the lens in which he did. I think more of that needs to be done. It's easier to address symptoms instead of the root causes.

Calling for him to be deported, calling him an idiot, or just writing off everything he says as "********" isn't really much of a counterargument.
I agree with Neely. Articles in poor taste and I have a hard time feeling bad for these guys or any other Islamic terrorist.

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04-25-2013, 10:50 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by BoyntBergie View Post
No offense but you disagree with anyone who says anything other than that we should flay and eat whatever his name is (white hat).

Like I said, I also don't necessarily agree with a lot of what he said. And yes, the timing was poor. But I don't fault him for looking at it through the lens in which he did. I think more of that needs to be done. It's easier to address symptoms instead of the root causes.

Calling for him to be deported, calling him an idiot, or just writing off everything he says as "********" isn't really much of a counterargument.
In regard to blowing up little boys? It is total ********, BB. And, he is using it as a vehicle to for his own agenda, whether what he's saying has validity, or not. You missed the point entirely, as I wasn't making a counterargument of any sort for his so called "reasoning".

Furthermore, I'd like this thread to stay open, if everyone doesn't mind. Sorry I didn't delete my post before it was quoted.

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04-25-2013, 10:50 AM
  #710
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Hope your husband gets well soon, best to you both.
Thanks again! Hubby will be fine.

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04-25-2013, 10:57 AM
  #711
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I agree with Neely. Articles in poor taste and I have a hard time feeling bad for these guys or any other Islamic terrorist.
I agree the timing was poor, but nowhere in it did he show any feeling bad for anyone. Unless I missed it.

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In regard to blowing up little boys? It is total ********, BB. And, he is using it as a vehicle to for his own agenda, whether what he's saying has validity, or not. You missed the point entirely, as I wasn't making a counterargument of any sort for his so called "reasoning".

Furthermore, I'd like this thread to stay open, if everyone doesn't mind. Sorry I didn't delete my post before it was quoted.
Nowhere that I saw did he defend the actions of them. To me at least, he's asking- "Why do these monsters exist, and what can be done to prevent more of them from popping up?". I don't see anything wrong with that. Again, don't agree with his conclusions and the timing, but I don't think the question itself is invalid.

Anyways, that's all I got. Not looking for any sort of dragged out back and forth.

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04-25-2013, 11:03 AM
  #712
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04-25-2013, 11:04 AM
  #713
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Don't know if this has been posted yet, but this is really really sad.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...ect-found-dead

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04-25-2013, 11:12 AM
  #714
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Don't know if this has been posted yet, but this is really really sad.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...ect-found-dead
Yeah, it is. Saw a story on this on CNN last night. Family is devastated. Just wrong in so many ways.

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04-25-2013, 11:12 AM
  #715
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Don't know if this has been posted yet, but this is really really sad.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...ect-found-dead
Saw this, I feel horrible for the family, seems like he was a good kid battling manic depression. Mental health among college students is a serious problem imo.. Just read about the gorges at Cornell . Lots of pressure on some of these kids, and many of them don't end up seeking help, but instead blame themselves. To be clear, I don't know if he committed suicide, but I read about his struggles with depression and wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.

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04-25-2013, 11:13 AM
  #716
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Just opted to now out.

Right now I don't have any desire to excuse are understand these terrorists.

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04-25-2013, 11:14 AM
  #717
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I agree with Neely. Articles in poor taste and I have a hard time feeling bad for these guys or any other Islamic terrorist.
I hate that term "Isamic terrorist". The media's has created a huge injustice to the people of Islamic faith. These two people were terrorists. Just like 9/11 terrorists. OKC terrorists, Columbine terrorists, Newtown terrorists etc.

The media only use 'Islamic terrorist' when the persons background faith is from Islam. The religion is one of peace and kindness. We never called Timothy McVeigh, the boys of Columbine, or that moron that killed all those kids as Catholic Terrorists.

They are all bad people. Yet all we do is create hate against people of Islamic faith, but at the same time find a way to love our guns. It's crazy.

I was watching CNN when this happened, and they are wondering if it was an act of terrorism. The answer before you caught anyone is 'YES'. Islam doesn't mean Terrorist. White, black, brown. Catholic, Hyndu, Jewish, Muslim...it doesn't matter. It was an act of terror by bad people.

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04-25-2013, 11:24 AM
  #718
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Spot. On. I feel sad that some people can't hear critical debate about controversial topics without getting angry or boiling the whole complicated mess down to "they" are evil and "we" are good.
Agreed in full. Believing in blowback isn't in any way understanding, agreeing with, showing remorse for etc. Its merely an attempt to get to underlying root causes that may not be seen initially or understood by citizens. This is why the CIA have included it in some of their conclusions of their operation wrap-ups / analysis.

Critical thinking, debate and analyzation is sadly becoming a thing of the past. People are too quick to boil things down to a point where nothing can be learned / actions or behavior cannot be corrected in advance of some heinous act being committed, and that right there posses a serious threat. People want things sugarcoated and dumbed down.

Now I don't agree with the professor's conclusions, however his intentions are what we need to see more of in academia / our intelligence community.

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04-25-2013, 12:09 PM
  #719
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IMHO the US needs to go back to Isolationism. Stop being the worlds police and let the UN handle all of that. No more needless wars and just fix ourselves.

This will hardly curb any sort of terrorism or hate towards this country but it is a start.

Agencies should also share info more freely and let go of jurisdictional ********.

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04-25-2013, 12:26 PM
  #720
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Agreed in full. Believing in blowback isn't in any way understanding, agreeing with, showing remorse for etc. Its merely an attempt to get to underlying root causes that may not be seen initially or understood by citizens. This is why the CIA have included it in some of their conclusions of their operation wrap-ups / analysis.

Critical thinking, debate and analyzation is sadly becoming a thing of the past. People are too quick to boil things down to a point where nothing can be learned / actions or behavior cannot be corrected in advance of some heinous act being committed, and that right there posses a serious threat. People want things sugarcoated and dumbed down.

Now I don't agree with the professor's conclusions, however his intentions are what we need to see more of in academia / our intelligence community.
One day? One day after laying to rest an 8 year old boy, and a 27 year old police officer, who was ambushed by these maniacs on the very same campus? There is a proper time and place for, "Tut tut, we must examine the root causes, and the ramifications of our own actions", and this was not it. The professor on Gilligan's island could figure that out.

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04-25-2013, 12:38 PM
  #721
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I hate that term "Isamic terrorist". The media's has created a huge injustice to the people of Islamic faith. These two people were terrorists. Just like 9/11 terrorists. OKC terrorists, Columbine terrorists, Newtown terrorists etc.

The media only use 'Islamic terrorist' when the persons background faith is from Islam. The religion is one of peace and kindness. We never called Timothy McVeigh, the boys of Columbine, or that moron that killed all those kids as Catholic Terrorists.

They are all bad people. Yet all we do is create hate against people of Islamic faith, but at the same time find a way to love our guns. It's crazy.

I was watching CNN when this happened, and they are wondering if it was an act of terrorism. The answer before you caught anyone is 'YES'. Islam doesn't mean Terrorist. White, black, brown. Catholic, Hyndu, Jewish, Muslim...it doesn't matter. It was an act of terror by bad people.
Those guys weren't attacking in the name of Christianity. That's the difference.

Also 90% of the terror attacks in the world are in the name of Islam for their Jihad. Not saying all Muslims are bad.

If we can't recognize the problem we are just going to keep getting attacked.

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04-25-2013, 12:41 PM
  #722
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I want to know why Eric Holder and Obama don't want the kid to talk?

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04-25-2013, 12:44 PM
  #723
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I hate that term "Isamic terrorist". The media's has created a huge injustice to the people of Islamic faith. These two people were terrorists. Just like 9/11 terrorists. OKC terrorists, Columbine terrorists, Newtown terrorists etc.

The media only use 'Islamic terrorist' when the persons background faith is from Islam. The religion is one of peace and kindness. We never called Timothy McVeigh, the boys of Columbine, or that moron that killed all those kids as Catholic Terrorists.

They are all bad people. Yet all we do is create hate against people of Islamic faith, but at the same time find a way to love our guns. It's crazy.

I was watching CNN when this happened, and they are wondering if it was an act of terrorism. The answer before you caught anyone is 'YES'. Islam doesn't mean Terrorist. White, black, brown. Catholic, Hyndu, Jewish, Muslim...it doesn't matter. It was an act of terror by bad people.
None of those people claimed to do it for their religion.

Mcveigh was a nutjob who followed the turner diaries
Columbine kids were getting bullied and took out their rage in the wrong way
Newton I don't know much about it but I have heard nothing about religion with that shooting


If you look at the facts most of the terror these days is coming from Islamic Jihadists and they don't hide that fact at all. Go watch Ross Kemp in Israel and Gaza. He interviews terrorists in Gaza and walks around.

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04-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #724
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I want to know why Eric Holder and Obama don't want the kid to talk?
Do you have a source or is this more conspiranoid *********?

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04-25-2013, 12:46 PM
  #725
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Those guys weren't attacking in the name of Christianity. That's the difference.

Also 90% of the terror attacks in the world are in the name of Islam for their Jihad. Not saying all Muslims are bad, but I guarantee you if you asked the majority of them if someone drew a pic of their prophet or even questioned anything about him, as many do with Jesus, should those people get what's coming to them. the answer is yes.

If we can't recognize the problem we are just going to keep getting attacked.
I think the problem is radical Islamic extremism that breeds terrorism, not Islam itself. There are billions of them on this planet. Roughly 1/4 of mankind, by some estimates.

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