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Old
04-24-2013, 03:11 AM
  #176
achdumeingute
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Couturier has quietly had a pretty good last couple weeks. I cant see how people dont see the immense potential of this guy when he fills out that 6 4 size. Very good hannds and vision.

His skating woes are overblown...hes not a bad skater and looks slower than he is because of his stride.

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04-24-2013, 07:44 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Couturier has quietly had a pretty good last couple weeks. I cant see how people dont see the immense potential of this guy when he fills out that 6 4 size. Very good hannds and vision.

His skating woes are overblown...hes not a bad skater and looks slower than he is because of his stride.
Eh, I completely agree with most of what you wrote--I'm not a fan of trading Couturier at all--but I think the questions about his skating are legitimate: he's the slowest 20 year old I've ever seen.

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04-24-2013, 08:19 AM
  #178
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Eh, I completely agree with most of what you wrote--I'm not a fan of trading Couturier at all--but I think the questions about his skating are legitimate: he's the slowest 20 year old I've ever seen.
I think a lot has to do with his confidence. He is a little hesitant sometimes with his decision making and that tends to slow him down. We know he is not the fastest skater but in time I think he will be fine. Sean is a keeper!

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04-24-2013, 08:30 AM
  #179
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Anyone else see him go after that icing towards the end of the game? He had no shot at getting to it, but I have never seen him skate that fast before.

I feel like he has a harder time with change of direction as opposed to just starting and accelerating straight. Who knows, but his skating is probably the biggest concern I have. Hopefully he figures "it" out... I am not familiar with young guys learning to become faster..?

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04-24-2013, 09:31 AM
  #180
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I posted this in another thread the other day, just looking at his stats:

I really don't get all the 'concern' about Couts, his season has been pretty underrated when the stats are delved into. If he was not in the team we would have had a far, far worse year.

He has almost exactly the same PPG as last year while playing with, frankly, whoever is fit enough to be his 4th line wingers for the most part this year, only Talbot has played with him regularly, and Rosehill, Rinaldo, Knuble and Read are the only other guys he has spent significant time with.

Last season: .350
This season: .341

Has below half as good a shot% percentage as last year (which will obviously revert to the mean, his PDO is the lowest after Voracek, which is scary as it indicates Voracek is unlucky!)

He also plays some of the toughest minutes on the team (2nd highest relative Corsi QOC, highest Corsi QOC.)

He also starts in offensive zone 30% of the time... and finishes in opponents zone 45% of the time. The best difference on the team. Considering his faceoff percentage is low (he is young, it'll improve) that is frankly an absurd stat.

He is out there on almost every single PK as he is so valuable there.

Has a positive relative Corsi... 12 above any of his regular linemates who are all below -10.

When we win Couts averages over 17 mins a game, when we lose 14mins.

So overall he is pretty much our best defensive forward, as he was last year, gets the hardest minutes on the team, with ****** (arguably the worst of any other player) linemates, and still is on pace for the same number of points as last year, on a worse team, with half as good shot%.

I would not say he has been disappointing.

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04-24-2013, 09:35 AM
  #181
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What im saying is, what you see is what you get in terms of his speed, he will never be able to get faster, maybe he will improve his skating economics but that is it. He is not an explosive athlete by any means. That is fine many other skaters arent either but I feel that skilll is really going to lower the ceiling on how he progresses.
You can improve foot speed. You think players who come into the NHL that day can never become faster? You sound like the rest of this board. In 2 seasons when he is finally showing his potential and his foot speed and skating is a thing of the past this thread will be one big laugh fest. He's 20 years old! Not pointing this directly at you because I get what you're saying, even though I disagree.

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04-24-2013, 09:40 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Couturier has quietly had a pretty good last couple weeks. I cant see how people dont see the immense potential of this guy when he fills out that 6 4 size. Very good hannds and vision.

His skating woes are overblown...hes not a bad skater and looks slower than he is because of his stride.
Yes he has.. Starting to look like he did last year. I'm a firm believer that trading couts is a huge mistake, even if its for a #1 d. He's going to be a very special player in a few years and anyone who can't see that is blind. People forget he's a 20 year old kid

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04-24-2013, 10:25 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Couturier has quietly had a pretty good last couple weeks. I cant see how people dont see the immense potential of this guy when he fills out that 6 4 size. Very good hannds and vision.

His skating woes are overblown...hes not a bad skater and looks slower than he is because of his stride.
Yes, definitely. Also, if you go on behindthenet and examine him as a player over the last three seasons using player lookup:

He does not get a ton of ice time and when he does his quality of competition is outstanding. He's basically taking the most difficult defensive minutes in the game.

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04-24-2013, 11:02 AM
  #184
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His skating woes are definitely overblown.

I've seen him turn some defensemen wide, start rushes on the PK, and chase down some pucks from the blueline.

It seems to me like he's much faster than people believe because of his stride. He doesn't appear to be moving / it seems effortless.

Though I will say that such a characteristic does not equate him to the speed of a guy like Carter, who had some of the same issues, Couturier's certainly not going to lose his effectiveness because of it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that he's a patient player. He uses his brains before his size before his legs. Once he gets them all running together at the same speed; when he starts anticipating things that are happening around him instead of needing to analyze things before he moves, then he's going to be ridiculously dominant.

I'm not sure what the mainboards idiots are watching. Wait... I know what they're watching. They're watching people who don't know what they're talking about post nonsense around HFBoards. That's how these rumors start on these boards, and once they get established, they're impossible to derail...

Well impossible to derail...and then Giroux hits PPG. "He'll never be a real scorer in this league. You should trade him to us on the cheap because of it." my ass.


Last edited by CS: 04-24-2013 at 11:12 AM.
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04-24-2013, 11:04 AM
  #185
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I just hope he does work on his skating a bit though during the off-season. Maybe try to be a tad more aggressive to use his size a tad better to his advantage.

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04-24-2013, 11:46 AM
  #186
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The thing is Couts' has a great Offensive upside. He was very successful in Jr. because he didn't get knocked off the puck nearly as much as he does in the NHL. He's at his best when he's strong on the puck, using his massive size to protect the puck and using his elite vision to find open teammates. For that to translate to the NHL he's going to have to work on his skating, leg strength and overall strength. He has the size, and he's still young. I don't doubt that one day he will be a legitimate offensive force for the Flyers every time he steps on the ice. Year Three is going to be a big one, and I'm actually rather excited to see what happens in terms of his development.

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04-24-2013, 12:08 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
The thing is Couts' has a great Offensive upside. He was very successful in Jr. because he didn't get knocked off the puck nearly as much as he does in the NHL. He's at his best when he's strong on the puck, using his massive size to protect the puck and using his elite vision to find open teammates. For that to translate to the NHL he's going to have to work on his skating, leg strength and overall strength. He has the size, and he's still young. I don't doubt that one day he will be a legitimate offensive force for the Flyers every time he steps on the ice. Year Three is going to be a big one, and I'm actually rather excited to see what happens in terms of his development.
This summer he needs to watch hours of Jagr using his ass to shield the puck

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04-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I posted this in another thread the other day, just looking at his stats:

I really don't get all the 'concern' about Couts, his season has been pretty underrated when the stats are delved into. If he was not in the team we would have had a far, far worse year.

He has almost exactly the same PPG as last year while playing with, frankly, whoever is fit enough to be his 4th line wingers for the most part this year, only Talbot has played with him regularly, and Rosehill, Rinaldo, Knuble and Read are the only other guys he has spent significant time with.

Last season: .350
This season: .341

Has below half as good a shot% percentage as last year (which will obviously revert to the mean, his PDO is the lowest after Voracek, which is scary as it indicates Voracek is unlucky!)

He also plays some of the toughest minutes on the team (2nd highest relative Corsi QOC, highest Corsi QOC.)

He also starts in offensive zone 30% of the time... and finishes in opponents zone 45% of the time. The best difference on the team. Considering his faceoff percentage is low (he is young, it'll improve) that is frankly an absurd stat.

He is out there on almost every single PK as he is so valuable there.

Has a positive relative Corsi... 12 above any of his regular linemates who are all below -10.

When we win Couts averages over 17 mins a game, when we lose 14mins.

So overall he is pretty much our best defensive forward, as he was last year, gets the hardest minutes on the team, with ****** (arguably the worst of any other player) linemates, and still is on pace for the same number of points as last year, on a worse team, with half as good shot%.

I would not say he has been disappointing.
The concern I have is that the Flyers will expect more from him, sour on him because "he is not developing like we had hoped", destroy his confidence, and then trade him for a 2nd round pick plus minor leaguer.

I don't worry about Couturier. I worry about the Flyers' notorious lack of patience. Playing on the third line, he is never going to put up significant numbers. As long as the Flyers realize that and accept it, there won't be a problem. But, they'll expect more from him, talk badly about him to ruin any trade value, and then dump him.

However, if they can trade him for an established defenseman while he still has value, we would get a player who already can play defense so we don't have to worry about the Flyers lack of patience and lack of ability to develop defensemen.

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04-24-2013, 12:51 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
The concern I have is that the Flyers will expect more from him, sour on him because "he is not developing like we had hoped", destroy his confidence, and then trade him for a 2nd round pick plus minor leaguer.

I don't worry about Couturier. I worry about the Flyers' notorious lack of patience. Playing on the third line, he is never going to put up significant numbers. As long as the Flyers realize that and accept it, there won't be a problem. But, they'll expect more from him, talk badly about him to ruin any trade value, and then dump him.

However, if they can trade him for an established defenseman while he still has value, we would get a player who already can play defense so we don't have to worry about the Flyers lack of patience and lack of ability to develop defensemen.
I won't rule out him playing between Schenn and Simmonds/Hartnell/Read next season on the second line honestly.

I think the organization sees a lot of faith in Laughton as a center.

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04-24-2013, 12:52 PM
  #190
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Schenn should play wing next year. I don't think he has the offensive creativity or the defensive awareness to be this team's second line center. Not yet.

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04-24-2013, 12:53 PM
  #191
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There are plenty of guys who don't become burners, but noticeably improve their explosiveness. Umberger comes to mind that last season he spent here, all of a sudden he was drawing a ton of stick infractions just because of one summer where his first few strides improved greatly. Tavares is another example of a guy who's skating was said to be a flaw, and he's worked at it to the point where it's hardly impeding him.

Whether Couturier makes those improvements or not is uncertain, but it's not unheard of.

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04-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Schenn should play wing next year. I don't think he has the offensive creativity or the defensive awareness to be this team's second line center. Not yet.
I would not be opposed to...

Gagne/McGinn - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Schenn
Hartnell - Laughton - Read
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot
Rosehill

or...

Gagne/McGinn - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Schenn - Read
Hartnell - Couturier - Laughton
Rinaldo - Hall - Talbot
Rosehill

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04-24-2013, 01:07 PM
  #193
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Couturier will be just fine.

Edit: I'm with Chris on his speed. Last night he used it to provide some pressure in the offensive zone, and then he was still able to get back in time to fulfill his defensive responsibilities. On that shift I sure wasn't seeing his skating dragging him down.

I would like to see him use that speed more while he actually has the puck, though; sometimes he spends too much time waiting for plays to develop, and with his usual linemates that's generally a waste of time anyways. He has plenty of time to learn these things.

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04-24-2013, 01:09 PM
  #194
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Do you think the organization is dead set on Schenn being a center? With Laughton coming up next year we need to move him to center. I am the biggest Schenn fan on this board and realize he struggled this year on the wing, but he can learn. He's a smart player and if you can play good at center I think you'll think the game through even better at wing. Him and Couturier had some serious chemistry in the AHL this year. He needs to be moved to wing!!

Hartnell G Voracek
Schenn Couturier Simmonds
Gagne Laughton Read
Rinaldo Talbot Rosehill/other 4th line player we sign (I'm probably forgetting somebody obvious for this spot )

Those are 3 great lines and I think Couturier would find his game next to Schenn. I think if we don't move Schenn to the wing one of Couturier/Laughton will have to move too seeing as the latter two are DEFINITE centers, unlike Schenn.

Thoughts? I think Brayden will be just fine at wing, even though he's played center all season, besides starting on G's wing, which granted he did look bad.

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04-24-2013, 01:10 PM
  #195
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This summer he needs to watch hours of Jagr using his ass to shield the puck
This pretty much sums it up lol

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04-24-2013, 02:04 PM
  #196
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I'd love to see Schenn on wing, with G, SCooter and Laughton down the middle. G-Jake shouldn't be split up, but Schenn, Hartnell, Simmonds, and Read can easily be rotated between the other top 2 lines' wing positions, with one helping out on the 3rd at any given point.

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04-25-2013, 01:49 PM
  #197
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A bit more on Couts and his advanced stats:

I don't think people realize how good defensively Couts is... last year he was arguably in the top 10 defensive centres (definitely top 15) in the NHL when advanced stats are looked at... as an 18 year old rookie. This year is more debatable, but he is still extremely impressive.

Couts has the 9th most own zone starts in the whole league this year (as a centre), and the 11th hardest QOC in the whole league.

Only Talbot, McClement and Fidler are also in the top 20 on both lists... McClement is the only one with a combined lower number... so arguably only Jay McClement has harder minutes in the whole NHL. (As even when wingers are considered non have harder mins than Couts combined.)

This year he has a +13 difference between offensive zone starts and finishes, (less than 10 other NHL players have this).

This is while having a positive relative CORSI, (only Boyd Gordon is even comparable in the whole NHL, but gets easier mins and is worse in every category compared to Couts.)

This with arguably THE SECOND HARDEST minutes in the NHL when QOC and own zone starts are compared.

He also has some of the least consistent and worst linemates in the league... non are positive in CORSI, all have minimal points.

When guys with similar own zone starts and QOC (hardest mins in NHL) are looked at non of these guys apart from Couts have positive relative CORSI... only Fiddler has more PPG as well... and he is having arguably his 2nd best point scoring season of his career.

Couts= +2.5
McClement= -24
Talbot= -10
Fiddler= -15

In conclusion in the whole league only Boyd Gordon has stats that can even compare to Couts defensively when own zone starts are considered, and he has worse relative CORSI, easier QOC, and less gain on own zone starts.

Also in the whole league only Jay McClement, Fidler and Talbot have mins as hard as Couts, and all have awfully bad relative CORSI.

This is all while having a sub 45% faceoff percentage... if that is increased (it will over time, usually approx by 8-10% over first four years in league) his off zone finishes will also increase... even though the difference is already top 10 in the league. His shot % is also less than half of last year, and will revert to the mean.

He is also our best PKer... Matt Read is the only one who is close to him.

Couts has an extremely unique set of stats: (with all players in the league are considered... in centres he is top 12 for these.)

Top 35 hardest QOC
Top 15 most zone starts
+ CORSI
+10 or more difference in zone starts

NO-ONE else in the league has a combination of those four, I honestly cannot emphasize how impressive this combo is. with less own zone starts, easier minutes or better linemates I imagine his offensive stats would be far better... with all three?

The minimum he is going to be is a top 10 defensive centre in the league getting 50~ points. (Mike Fisher... though Couts is already better defensively tbh!)

These guys come along very rarely and are the kind of guy every single team wants.

You only trade him for a proven top D man in a package, he is a unique kind of player even now, and with his offensive potential, if he gets +60 points he will be a Selke winner.


Last edited by Appleyard: 04-25-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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04-25-2013, 02:02 PM
  #198
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And that is why I want to keep him. Excellent write up.

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04-25-2013, 02:12 PM
  #199
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Good post Appleyard. Simply put Lavi has not put him in a position to succeed offensively. He is amazing defensively, but the way to develop youth is to give them the easy minutes and gradually increase their role. Lavi has got it backwards and seems determined to pigeon hole him as a checking line forward instead of the two way center he should be.

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04-25-2013, 02:31 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
A bit more on Couts and his advanced stats:

I don't think people realize how good defensively Couts is... last year he was arguably in the top 10 defensive centres (definitely top 15) in the NHL when advanced stats are looked at... as an 18 year old rookie. This year is more debatable, but he is still extremely impressive.

Couts has the 9th most own zone starts in the whole league this year (as a centre), and the 11th hardest QOC in the whole league.

Only Talbot, McClement and Fidler are also in the top 20 on both lists... McClement is the only one with a combined lower number... so arguably only Jay McClement has harder minutes in the whole NHL. (As even when wingers are considered non have harder mins than Couts combined.)

This year he has a +13 difference between offensive zone starts and finishes, (less than 10 other NHL players have this).

This is while having a positive relative CORSI, (only Boyd Gordon is even comparable in the whole NHL, but gets easier mins and is worse in every category compared to Couts.)

This with arguably THE SECOND HARDEST minutes in the NHL when QOC and own zone starts are compared.

He also has some of the least consistent and worst linemates in the league... non are positive in CORSI, all have minimal points.

When guys with similar own zone starts and QOC (hardest mins in NHL) are looked at non of these guys apart from Couts have positive relative CORSI... only Fiddler has more PPG as well... and he is having arguably his 2nd best point scoring season of his career.

Couts= +2.5
McClement= -24
Talbot= -10
Fiddler= -15

In conclusion in the whole league only Boyd Gordon has stats that can even compare to Couts defensively when own zone starts are considered, and he has worse relative CORSI, easier QOC, and less gain on own zone starts.

Also in the whole league only Jay McClement, Fidler and Talbot have mins as hard as Couts, and all have awfully bad relative CORSI.

This is all while having a sub 45% faceoff percentage... if that is increased (it will over time, usually approx by 8-10% over first four years in league) his off zone finishes will also increase... even though the difference is already top 10 in the league. His shot % is also less than half of last year, and will revert to the mean.

He is also our best PKer... Matt Read is the only one who is close to him.

Couts has an extremely unique set of stats: (with all players in the league are considered... in centres he is top 12 for these.)

Top 35 hardest QOC
Top 15 most zone starts
+ CORSI
+10 or more difference in zone starts

NO-ONE else in the league has a combination of those four, I honestly cannot emphasize how impressive this combo is. with less own zone starts, easier minutes or better linemates I imagine his offensive stats would be far better... with all three?

The minimum he is going to be is a top 10 defensive centre in the league getting 50~ points. (Mike Fisher... though Couts is already better defensively tbh!)

These guys come along very rarely and are the kind of guy every single team wants.

You only trade him for a proven top D man in a package, he is a unique kind of player even now, and with his offensive potential, if he gets +60 points he will be a Selke winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
And that is why I want to keep him. Excellent write up.
That's all well and good and I agree he is a good player. I don't think anyone is knocking him as a player or saying he is a bust or anything along those lines. We all know how good he is. But this team has needs. Speaking for myself, I don't want to trade Couturier because he isn't going be any good. I would only trade him to improve this team. I think out of Schenn/Read/Couturier/Laughton/Cousins Couturier holds the most value. Someone is likely going to be traded. Couturier may be the best of the bunch, but he also should get the best return. Again, I'm not saying to just get rid of him or saying he isn't good or whatever, just that this team has enough centers. Laughton is not as good as Couturier, and I don't expect him to fill his shoes next year or ever in the future. But if (hypothetically) Couturier is involved in a package to get a top defender, I would be ok with having the less talented Laughton in the lineup and the top defender in the lineup, than having the more talented Couturier and the less talented defender.

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