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Old
04-25-2013, 01:35 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
This makes no sense. I would expect a club to lose focus when theres nothing on the line and they are eliminated.

Sounds like raw ranting to me at what is pretty predictable.

People draw up too much importance between how a club like Calgary is playing right now and how the Oil are. The situation down south is several players trying to make a name for themselves and trying desperately to get noticed and playing over their heads in short term. The players here have jobs, and will get better.

I'm amazed at all the blow it up ranting and fire everybody ranting.
Has anything about Krueger really impressed you? I was a fan of having Krueger as coach but dude is a mess. Clearly amateur level compared to his peers.

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04-25-2013, 01:40 PM
  #602
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Has anything about Krueger really impressed you? I was a fan of having Krueger as coach but dude is a mess. Clearly amateur level compared to his peers.
What concerns me is that we've had 4 coaches in the last 5 seasons and the players know it.

All of the people firing coaches at every turn seem to have no awareness that this removes ANY responsibility and accountability from the players that know somebody else is walking the plank anyway.

People complain about coaches here not being able to hold this motley crew accountable without considering for a moment how much credibility we've stripped from the coaching position here.

As in "meet your new boss, we're not sure how long he'll be around but try to play nice..."

Coaches are afforded zero latitude here. Players know it.

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04-25-2013, 01:42 PM
  #603
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That is part of the problem. Players and coaches should be held accountable for results.
Management has removed any accountability from the players. 4 new coaches in 5 years means that somebody else is always said to be at fault, and the players need commit to listen to nobody.

At what point do we put up, and back up a coach and DEMAND that the players adhere and comply with direction and gameplan.

Lack of accountability here is all on management not putting players feet to fire.

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04-25-2013, 01:47 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
What concerns me is that we've had 4 coaches in the last 5 seasons and the players know it.

All of the people firing coaches at every turn seem to have no awareness that this removes ANY responsibility and accountability from the players that know somebody else is walking the plank anyway.

People complain about coaches here not being able to hold this motley crew accountable without considering for a moment how much credibility we've stripped from the coaching position here.

As in "meet your new boss, we're not sure how long he'll be around but try to play nice..."

Coaches are afforded zero latitude here. Players know it.
Don't get me wrong, the personnel doesn't help either. I'm not a tier 1 fan by any means but having seen the team live and what "happens" before face offs [which SNET cuts off all the time], the team is just too lazy. Ultimately, that's the coach's job to fix. Either beat motivation into said player or have the GM ship him for something else.

Clear floaters that Krueger should've worked harder on-Horcoff, Smyth, Eberle, Almost all the D but Fistric.

And for some reason, the game seems slower to me in person...

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04-25-2013, 01:54 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the personnel doesn't help either. I'm not a tier 1 fan by any means but having seen the team live and what "happens" before face offs [which SNET cuts off all the time], the team is just too lazy. Ultimately, that's the coach's job to fix. Either beat motivation into said player or have the GM ship him for something else.

Clear floaters that Krueger should've worked harder on-Horcoff, Smyth, Eberle, Almost all the D but Fistric.

And for some reason, the game seems slower to me in person...
That's replacement's point(and mine throughout this thread).

Any coach who tries to take a hard stance with the players will get fired for their efforts.

Management has stripped the power from the coaching position, the players are running the show now.

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04-25-2013, 01:55 PM
  #606
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I know it's been mentioned here and there in a derisive/joking tone, but maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if, sometime next year, MacT took over both the HC and GM jobs?

If one of the big problems with this team is that they don't take their coach seriously because they think they can tune him out and he'll get his walking papers sooner than later, suddenly that tactic doesn't look quite so appealing if the GM is the one in the dressing room with you every game. If nothing else, I'd bet it would definitely get the attention of these entitled players who maybe read too many of their press clippings for their own good.

Of course, the hangup with this idea is that it would be a very demanding task. I have my doubts that MacT's health would be up for it. Sather did it for a lot of years, but even he admitted after a while that it took a toll on him and made it hard to excel at either job.

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04-25-2013, 02:00 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
I know it's been mentioned here and there in a derisive/joking tone, but maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if, sometime next year, MacT took over both the HC and GM jobs?

If one of the big problems with this team is that they don't take their coach seriously because they think they can tune him out and he'll get his walking papers sooner than later, suddenly that tactic doesn't look quite so appealing if the GM is the one in the dressing room with you every game. If nothing else, I'd bet it would definitely get the attention of these entitled players who maybe read too many of their press clippings for their own good.

Of course, the hangup with this idea is that it would be a very demanding task. I have my doubts that MacT's health would be up for it. Sather did it for a lot of years, but even he admitted after a while that it took a toll on him and made it hard to excel at either job.
Terrible idea, Mact is at best a mediocre coach, and probably will struggle as a GM even without two jobs to focus on at the same time. It's especially a bad idea when coaches like Ruff, and potentially Babcock are out there.

The just need to break up the apathetic vet core and back a coach. Kreuger may not be that guy, but the next guy they hire has to be for better or worse.

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04-25-2013, 02:01 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
That's replacement's point(and mine throughout this thread).

Any coach who tries to take a hard stance with the players will get fired for their efforts.

Management has stripped the power from the coaching position, the players are running the show now.
I disagree with the bolded. I think it depends on who the coach is. MacT lost the room but it was time for a change. The game simply passed by Pat Quinn so he wasn't right either. Both Renney and Krueger are "nice guys" and not really in the John Tortorella mould. I think an outspoken coach who calls the players out like Tortorella or Lindy Ruff would fit perfectly here.

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04-25-2013, 02:03 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I disagree with the bolded. I think it depends on who the coach is. MacT lost the room but it was time for a change. The game simply passed by Pat Quinn so he wasn't right either. Both Renney and Krueger are "nice guys" and not really in the John Tortorella mould. I think an outspoken coach who calls the players out like Tortorella or Lindy Ruff would fit perfectly here.
This. The personnel has been pampered way too long already

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04-25-2013, 02:10 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
I disagree with the bolded. I think it depends on who the coach is. MacT lost the room but it was time for a change. The game simply passed by Pat Quinn so he wasn't right either. Both Renney and Krueger are "nice guys" and not really in the John Tortorella mould. I think an outspoken coach who calls the players out like Tortorella or Lindy Ruff would fit perfectly here.
Quinn was a hardline guy who spent all year calling out players, and was promptly rushed out the door and denigrated by the Oiler media shills as a dinosaur because the players said so. Kreuger/Renny were guys they players wanted to play for, the very same players who checked out the second they decided they no longer needed to listen to them anymore.

You bring in Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella in this organization, with management that will fire a coach at the drop of a hat to save their own *****, and they'll be gone in a year - and the players know it.

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04-25-2013, 02:27 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Management has removed any accountability from the players. 4 new coaches in 5 years means that somebody else is always said to be at fault, and the players need commit to listen to nobody.

At what point do we put up, and back up a coach and DEMAND that the players adhere and comply with direction and gameplan.

Lack of accountability here is all on management not putting players feet to fire.
When we get an *actual NHL coach* who can adapt to the skillset of the players in front of him and the game situations he will face, and not try and pound a square peg through a round hole or reinvent the wheel.

You show me a Mike Babcock/Ken Hitchcock/Joel Quenneville/Claude Julien behind the bench and I'll show you an accountable locker room.


edit: This team hasn't had an *actual NHL coach* since Sather. Let some other org break in the Tom Renneys/Kirk Muller/WreckitRalphs of the hockey world, and our head office isn't capable of finding the Dan Bylsma's, even though I'm convinced Tod Nelson might be the real deal. How they haven't figured out to grab a Ruff/Hartley/Tippet when they become available is beyond me, then bring up Nelson to assistant coach, and groom him for eventual head coaching duties. 4 experiments/stopgaps in 5 years is disgusting.


Last edited by bucktown: 04-25-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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04-25-2013, 02:38 PM
  #612
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If, under Ruff at the World Championships, Ebs, Hall, DD, whichever other Oilers go over to play, perform well, I'd assume that would at least plant the seed in MacT's head that maybe he should consider bringing in Ruff as head coach?

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04-25-2013, 02:42 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Quinn was a hardline guy who spent all year calling out players, and was promptly rushed out the door and denigrated by the Oiler media shills as a dinosaur because the players said so. Kreuger/Renny were guys they players wanted to play for, the very same players who checked out the second they decided they no longer needed to listen to them anymore.

You bring in Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella in this organization, with management that will fire a coach at the drop of a hat to save their own *****, and they'll be gone in a year - and the players know it.
Quinn led the team to its worst showing in franchise history with a roster that nearly made the playoffs under MacTavish. Quinn hadn't coached at the NHL level in years and it was pretty clear the game had passed him by. A lot more than just the players and Oilers management saw this as being the case.

Bringing in a coach with pedigree like Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella/Laviolette is exactly what we need. These guys have cups, presidents trophies, Jack Adams awards etc. and they're not dinosaurs. Krueger has none of those accomplishments on his resume and neither did Renney. If a player gets out of line with a coach like that he gets shipped out because management won't be afraid to side with the coach in that scenario.

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04-25-2013, 02:46 PM
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Quinn was a hardline guy who spent all year calling out players, and was promptly rushed out the door and denigrated by the Oiler media shills as a dinosaur because the players said so. Kreuger/Renny were guys they players wanted to play for, the very same players who checked out the second they decided they no longer needed to listen to them anymore.

You bring in Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella in this organization, with management that will fire a coach at the drop of a hat to save their own *****, and they'll be gone in a year - and the players know it.
Gotta feel bad for Quinn. I don't think any coach would have succeeded in that situation. I would have liked to see what he could have done with Hall and Eberle. Under Quinn I don't think we would have had 2 more last place finishes, and I'm guessing Belanger and Smyth would have been torn a new one in the papers and benched most of the year.

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04-25-2013, 02:46 PM
  #615
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Terrible idea, Mact is at best a mediocre coach, and probably will struggle as a GM even without two jobs to focus on at the same time. It's especially a bad idea when coaches like Ruff, and potentially Babcock are out there.

The just need to break up the apathetic vet core and back a coach. Kreuger may not be that guy, but the next guy they hire has to be for better or worse.
In a perfect world where a GM can just pick and choose their coach like they're picking up wine at their local liquor store, that would be best...but it's a two way street, the coaching candidate has to want to come here. And let's be realistic, what quality coach would want to work under the current Oilers infrastructure where you have Lowe running things and making sure pet projects like Buchberger are part of your assistant coaching staff? For better or worse, Lowe is going NOWHERE.

As for MacT's coaching acumen or lack thereof, my opinion on coaching (and I freely admit I could be wrong about this) is that when it comes to the technicalities of the job, there's not a lot of separation between most head coaches. In this day and age, how a coach gets a team to "buy in" and keep his charges on the same page is a lot more important than how they can handle a whiteboard. That's why he has assistants.

I really don't think that a guy like Babcock is some super genius that sees hidden layers of hockey that nobody else can...he just knows how to deal with the highly paid people under his care and how to get them to believe in what he's saying. In that light, that's why I could see a MacT coach/GM model working, at least in the short term. In my mind, he's every bit as good a technical coach as what we've had to endure since MacT left...the difference would be that as GM, he'd also have the clout to enforce his will. The players would have to either fall in line, or THEY would be the ones moving on.

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04-25-2013, 02:48 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by SeriousBusiness View Post
If, under Ruff at the World Championships, Ebs, Hall, DD, whichever other Oilers go over to play, perform well, I'd assume that would at least plant the seed in MacT's head that maybe he should consider bringing in Ruff as head coach?
Maybe they all become best friends. It's a good situation.

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04-25-2013, 02:48 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Quinn led the team to its worst showing in franchise history with a roster that nearly made the playoffs under MacTavish. Quinn hadn't coached at the NHL level in years and it was pretty clear the game had passed him by. A lot more than just the players and Oilers management saw this as being the case.

Bringing in a coach with pedigree like Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella/Laviolette is exactly what we need. These guys have cups, presidents trophies, Jack Adams awards etc. and they're not dinosaurs. Krueger has none of those accomplishments on his resume and neither did Renney. If a player gets out of line with a coach like that he gets shipped out because management won't be afraid to side with the coach in that scenario.
2009/2010 had nothing to do with injuries and Tambo bringing in a crap vet goalie. Look at some of the names that played d for that team and you'll realize how pitiful a team it was.

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04-25-2013, 02:54 PM
  #618
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Pat Quinn

1. Played Ryan Stone in the top-6, he didn't score THE ENTIRE SEASON

2. The 2008-09 Oilers, under Craig MacTavish (38-35-0-9), The 2009-10 Oilers, under Pat Quinn (27-47-0-8)

They were basically the same teams. You're INSANE if you think Pat Quinn "gets a bad rap", if anything he should be the standard we use to judge failures as coaches.
Basically the same teams?


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04-25-2013, 02:59 PM
  #619
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The next coach for this team I think should be Todd Nelson. The Barons are doing well he knows how to work with the core of the Oilers they seemed to be firning on all cyllinders when they werer OKC. Guy has record of success at all levels other NHL. I don't think he can be included in Old boys club.

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04-25-2013, 03:08 PM
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The next coach for this team I think should be Todd Nelson. The Barons are doing well he knows how to work with the core of the Oilers they seemed to be firning on all cyllinders when they werer OKC. Guy has record of success at all levels other NHL. I don't think he can be included in Old boys club.
He is getting more out of his team without Eberle, Hall, RNH and Schultz. Something tells me he'd have a hard time at the NHL level.

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04-25-2013, 03:12 PM
  #621
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He is getting more out of his team without Eberle, Hall, RNH and Schultz. Something tells me he'd have a hard time at the NHL level.
I'd like to see him as an assistant coach first: whether that's with the Oilers or on another NHL team.

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04-25-2013, 03:17 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by frag2 View Post
Has anything about Krueger really impressed you? I was a fan of having Krueger as coach but dude is a mess. Clearly amateur level compared to his peers.
I'd love to see some answers to that question.


Other than a slight improvement on the PK(which probably has to do with Dubnyk being 2nd to Craig Anderson for best PK SV%), what has Krueger done?

- worse 5 on5
- worse PP
- arguably the worst team effort level over the course of the rebuild
- no real understanding of line matching it seems
- no accountability held amongst the players

What has Krueger done that makes you think he can be an NHL coach?

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04-25-2013, 03:22 PM
  #623
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2009/2010 had nothing to do with injuries and Tambo bringing in a crap vet goalie. Look at some of the names that played d for that team and you'll realize how pitiful a team it was.
Below is a link to the 08-09 Oilers roster coached by MacT. They got 85 pts and finished 11th and 6 pts out of a playoff spot

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000412009.html

Below is a link to the 09-10 Oilers roster coached by Quinn. They got 62 pts and finished last in the NHL and 33 pts out of a playoff spot.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000412010.html

The team is very close in terms of personnel from 09 to 10. Yes injuries played a role but they dropped 23 points from the year before. You can't just point to injuries and goaltending and say that's why the team was so bad. Good coaches can keep a team competitive with less than ideal personnel......see 2013 Ottawa Senators.

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04-25-2013, 03:26 PM
  #624
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Why would a team hire a coach with little NHL experience to lead a team made up of roster players with little NHL experience? Is that not a classic example of the blind leading the blind? Is there another thought process that I am missing here?

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04-25-2013, 03:30 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by The Big Unit View Post
Quinn led the team to its worst showing in franchise history with a roster that nearly made the playoffs under MacTavish. Quinn hadn't coached at the NHL level in years and it was pretty clear the game had passed him by. A lot more than just the players and Oilers management saw this as being the case.

Bringing in a coach with pedigree like Ruff/Tippet/Babcock/Tortorella/Laviolette is exactly what we need. These guys have cups, presidents trophies, Jack Adams awards etc. and they're not dinosaurs. Krueger has none of those accomplishments on his resume and neither did Renney. If a player gets out of line with a coach like that he gets shipped out because management won't be afraid to side with the coach in that scenario.
The same roster? With a different(and much worse) goaltender and a record man-games lost to injuries? You've bought the organizational party line on why Quinn was fired - hook, line, and sinker.

I'll put it another way.

Horcoff - been packing it in for the season by january every year since before he got his contract, friends with the owner = rewarded with captaincy.
Hemsky - barely broke a sweat last year, 80 point talent, barely 35 points - rewarded with 2 year 5 million dollar a year contract(Other GMs were literally laughing at the team)
Belanger - worst showing in a full year by a player in an Oilers uniform since O'sullivan - was brought back
Smyth - phoned it in for 4 months of last year - rewarded with a 2 year 2.5 million dollar a year contract.

What chance does a coach have in an organization where he isn't even allowed to choose his own staff(none of Quinn/Renny/Kreuger had that option), against a group of players immune to accountability(4 coaches in 5 years for some of them), with a franchise more concerned with protecting the employment status of Oilers alumni(Lowe, Mact, Bucky, Smith, Horcoff, Smyth) than competency?

None, zip, ziltch.

Pedigree, Stanley cups, reputations won't matter one iota, big name coaches will get run over here just like anyone else. Need proof? Kreuger got a stay of execution by the new GM, and in one week the players have managed to pretty much play him right out of a job with the worst stretches of hockey seen since Quinn was head coach - that's how good this group of players is at killing coaches now.

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