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04-25-2013, 01:40 PM
  #201
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's all well and good and I agree he is a good player. I don't think anyone is knocking him as a player or saying he is a bust or anything along those lines. We all know how good he is. But this team has needs. Speaking for myself, I don't want to trade Couturier because he isn't going be any good. I would only trade him to improve this team. I think out of Schenn/Read/Couturier/Laughton/Cousins Couturier holds the most value. Someone is likely going to be traded. Couturier may be the best of the bunch, but he also should get the best return. Again, I'm not saying to just get rid of him or saying he isn't good or whatever, just that this team has enough centers. Laughton is not as good as Couturier, and I don't expect him to fill his shoes next year or ever in the future. But if (hypothetically) Couturier is involved in a package to get a top defender, I would be ok with having the less talented Laughton in the lineup and the top defender in the lineup, than having the more talented Couturier and the less talented defender.
The thing is I don't think trading him or another forward is going to improve this team. Yes, we need defense, but they are no longer elite offensively with great depth. They can't afford to keep giving up forwards. Briere is gone (and is done anyway) and Jake is likely going to regress to the mean next year. They need Coots and Schenn going forward to be a big part of the offense.

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04-25-2013, 01:44 PM
  #202
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For everyone saying that skating can't be improved, I don't really have to go too far back in Flyers to find the counter to that point.

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04-25-2013, 01:53 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's all well and good and I agree he is a good player. I don't think anyone is knocking him as a player or saying he is a bust or anything along those lines. We all know how good he is. But this team has needs. Speaking for myself, I don't want to trade Couturier because he isn't going be any good. I would only trade him to improve this team. I think out of Schenn/Read/Couturier/Laughton/Cousins Couturier holds the most value. Someone is likely going to be traded. Couturier may be the best of the bunch, but he also should get the best return. Again, I'm not saying to just get rid of him or saying he isn't good or whatever, just that this team has enough centers. Laughton is not as good as Couturier, and I don't expect him to fill his shoes next year or ever in the future. But if (hypothetically) Couturier is involved in a package to get a top defender, I would be ok with having the less talented Laughton in the lineup and the top defender in the lineup, than having the more talented Couturier and the less talented defender.
Or, they could keep him and build a team properly so they don't have to sell core players every few years to fill the holes. That would result in a stronger team overall. Players like Couturier are rare.

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04-25-2013, 01:56 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
The thing is I don't think trading him or another forward is going to improve this team. Yes, we need defense, but they are no longer elite offensively with great depth. They can't afford to keep giving up forwards. Briere is gone (and is done anyway) and Jake is likely going to regress to the mean next year. They need Coots and Schenn going forward to be a big part of the offense.
I do not think Vora will regress to the mean too much tbh... I know that stats are precarious things but he has the worst PDO on the team, indicating he is unlucky! Though Bryz has skewed that... but even if you adjust the save percentage to .902 when he is on the ice (from .850~) it indicates he will not drop too much.

I imagine if he is uninjured next year his shot % will drop to about 14%, say 3%, so 200 shots over a year~ means about 6 less goals, so probably ~30 goals next year and 40 assists for 70 points at worst, if our team is better next year I see him in the 75-PPG range.

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04-25-2013, 02:19 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
The thing is I don't think trading him or another forward is going to improve this team. Yes, we need defense, but they are no longer elite offensively with great depth. They can't afford to keep giving up forwards. Briere is gone (and is done anyway) and Jake is likely going to regress to the mean next year. They need Coots and Schenn going forward to be a big part of the offense.
I disagree. If they get rid of Couturier, they still have a glut of talented centers. Giroux/Schenn/Laughton/Cousins. That is still better than most teams. Again, I am not saying trade him for nothing or that Couturier is not worth keeping, only that this team has bigger needs.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Or, they could keep him and build a team properly so they don't have to sell core players every few years to fill the holes. That would result in a stronger team overall. Players like Couturier are rare.
I don't see how trading a good young player for another good young player is not properly building a team. Not properly building a team would be sticking with what you have and letting a weakness stay weak when you could upgrade that position without damaging a position of strength. And once again, I must stress that I am not saying to trade Couturier for peanuts or anything like that. I don't know what I would or wouldn't trade him for. But I think it is pretty clear that there is a log-jam at center on this team and a glaring weakness on the blue line. It is not a stretch to think that one of the centers will be dealt. If one is dealt, Couturier likely will net the Flyers the best return.

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04-25-2013, 02:36 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I disagree. If they get rid of Couturier, they still have a glut of talented centers. Giroux/Schenn/Laughton/Cousins. That is still better than most teams. Again, I am not saying trade him for nothing or that Couturier is not worth keeping, only that this team has bigger needs.



I don't see how trading a good young player for another good young player is not properly building a team. Not properly building a team would be sticking with what you have and letting a weakness stay weak when you could upgrade that position without damaging a position of strength. And once again, I must stress that I am not saying to trade Couturier for peanuts or anything like that. I don't know what I would or wouldn't trade him for. But I think it is pretty clear that there is a log-jam at center on this team and a glaring weakness on the blue line. It is not a stretch to think that one of the centers will be dealt. If one is dealt, Couturier likely will net the Flyers the best return.
And the forward corps' defensive ability will be put in the chipper, to the point where the team isn't really coming out ahead.

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04-25-2013, 02:37 PM
  #207
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Counting on Cousins to do anything in the NHL next year, let alone be a "talented center" is foolish.

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04-25-2013, 02:44 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Counting on Cousins to do anything in the NHL next year, let alone be a "talented center" is foolish.
Yeah I would bet good money on him spending most of the year in the AHL over playing in the NHL.

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04-25-2013, 02:47 PM
  #209
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There's something to be said for consistency with the core of your team, instead of turning it over every offseason to fill holes. Teams that win generally have a stable core they've developed over time. They don't follow whatever model the Flyers are attempting to employ the last two years. Couturier has a skillset this team desperately needs. Trading him just opens up a gaping new hole.

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04-25-2013, 03:13 PM
  #210
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's something to be said for consistency with the core of your team, instead of turning it over every offseason to fill holes. Teams that win generally have a stable core they've developed over time. They don't follow whatever model the Flyers are attempting to employ the last two years. Couturier has a skillset this team desperately needs. Trading him just opens up a gaping new hole.
Ya I am sick of them relying on trades to fix every hole. It just opens up new holes. There is no quick fix out of this mess. They need patience and wait for the right moves to come along.

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04-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's something to be said for consistency with the core of your team, instead of turning it over every offseason to fill holes. Teams that win generally have a stable core they've developed over time. They don't follow whatever model the Flyers are attempting to employ the last two years. Couturier has a skillset this team desperately needs. Trading him just opens up a gaping new hole.
And Cooter is TOUGH.
--His rookie year he only missed 5 games (after getting absolutely drilled in the ear with a Kimo slapshot)

--This year he only missed 2 games

--In the Q he played with mono, and was dominant.

Considering his linemates, shutting down malkin (and constantly facing the best players), this accelerated schedule vs. his dominance in a stacked AHL

when you add it all up, Cooter is very undervalued right now.
He is dependable, strong, big, and will only become more offensively threatening.


PPG in the AHL at 20 is no joke...Especially on ADK!

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04-25-2013, 05:04 PM
  #212
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PPG in the AHL at 20 is no joke...Especially on ADK!
All of what you said is true, and to emphasize this point, he was on a team coached by Terry "Offense Is Evil" Murray.

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04-25-2013, 05:53 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Ya I am sick of them relying on trades to fix every hole. It just opens up new holes. There is no quick fix out of this mess. They need patience and wait for the right moves to come along.
But trading Couturier (or Schenn, or Laughton) doesn't open up a new hole. You have to look at it on balance, not just looking at the names. Couturier has the potential to be a top defensive forward. He is already showing he can shut down guys like Malkin on a very consistent basis. That is indisputable. The kid can play. But long term, the Flyers have Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Laughton, and Cousins currently playing center, and playing fairly well at their respective levels. Giroux will not be traded. Schenn has as high a ceiling as Couturier, but plays a very different game. Laughton, from what I understand, plays a similar game to Couturier. I'm not saying Laughton is as good now or ever will be as good as Couturier, but all indication is that his ceiling is a solid top 9 defensive forward. Cousins is kind of a wild card and I'm not really sure where he factors in on an NHL level, but he is currently looking like he is headed to a nice NHL career.

That being said, there is not room on this team for five centers. Even if you move one of these guys to wing, I don't think it very likely or wise to have Couturier or Laughton or Cousins on the fourth line (depending on who is moved to wing). This is why I feel that someone is going to be dealt.

This isn't a lack of patience. This isn't poor asset management. This isn't opening up a hole to try for a quick fix. This is looking at your team and saying, "Hey, we have a huge logjam at center. We also have no one in the system that really has the ability to be a consistent top four guy moving forward and our defense has been God-awful since Pronger went down. Maybe we should move one of these centers and try to fix the defense instead of holding on to all of these guys who in all likelihood will not be able to be on the NHL roster at the same time without moving at least one of them to wing and burying another on the fourth line."

Assuming they kept all these guys, best case scenario the team would look something like this when all these guys reached the NHL...

XXX-Giroux-XXX
Schenn-Couturier-XXX
XXX-Laughton-Cousins

That's if Cousins and Schenn can play on the wing. I honestly don't know how likely that is that they make that transition. If it is not a big deal and players switch positions all the time and no one complains about being asked to do this, then sure, keep everyone and try and develop a defenseman. But you risk stunting a guy's development or making someone unhappy by asking them to switch positions to make room for someone else. I'd rather deal from a position of depth to upgrade a position of weakness, than just horde all these centers and hope that we can convert them to wings.

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04-25-2013, 05:56 PM
  #214
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How does trading Couturier NOT open a big hole? He's absolutely crucial to the team's defensive play, and as Appleyard showed, the ability to have a 2-way game coming out of our end. Trading him removes that. Who on the roster is going to step in and be as effective? There are other centers laying around, sure. But they flat out aren't as good.

Edit: Also, the preponderance of centers in the prospect pool and lack of D and wingers is the GM's fault. The prospect pool isn't very diverse. Feeling the need to trade away crucial yet young core pieces with metric buttloads of potential to fill other needs because the organization has not been able to fill them conventionally reflects poorly on management. I'd rather keep Couturier, build around him, Giroux, the Schenns, Simmonds, and V, and build the right way.


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04-25-2013, 07:10 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How does trading Couturier NOT open a big hole? He's absolutely crucial to the team's defensive play, and as Appleyard showed, the ability to have a 2-way game coming out of our end. Trading him removes that. Who on the roster is going to step in and be as effective? There are other centers laying around, sure. But they flat out aren't as good.
I know they aren't as good. I have consistently said the other centers are not as good. Couturier being replaced by Laughton is a big gap at this point. That is for sure. But Laughton as 3C (or whomever were to play 3C) plus the addition of what would be a top defender does not create a hole. It downgrades 3C. Absolutely. No argument here. But that downgrade, coupled with the upgrade on defense, doesn't leave the hole you are talking about. Getting rid of Couturier for a defender and putting Jody Shelley on the third line creates a hole. Getting rid of Couturier and putting a capable 3C in that position while upgrading the defense does not create a hole. It deals from a position of strength and depth to improve a position of weakness.

Quote:
Edit: Also, the preponderance of centers in the prospect pool and lack of D and wingers is the GM's fault. The prospect pool isn't very diverse. Feeling the need to trade away crucial yet young core pieces with metric buttloads of potential to fill other needs because the organization has not been able to fill them conventionally reflects poorly on management. I'd rather keep Couturier, build around him, Giroux, the Schenns, Simmonds, and V, and build the right way.
Blame whomever you want, the situation remains the same. I would trade from a position of strength and depth to improve a position of weakness. Once again, just so we are clear, I am not saying that Couturier is a bust or anything like that. I am not saying lets trade him and get Joni Pitkanen back. I am saying if someone is offering up a legit top defender (or a young guy that legitimately has that potential, or the #1 pick in this draft) I think you do it. I would do the same for the other centers not named Giroux, I just think Couturier is the most likely candidate go.

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04-25-2013, 07:22 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I know they aren't as good. I have consistently said the other centers are not as good. Couturier being replaced by Laughton is a big gap at this point. That is for sure. But Laughton as 3C (or whomever were to play 3C) plus the addition of what would be a top defender does not create a hole. It downgrades 3C. Absolutely. No argument here. But that downgrade, coupled with the upgrade on defense, doesn't leave the hole you are talking about. Getting rid of Couturier for a defender and putting Jody Shelley on the third line creates a hole. Getting rid of Couturier and putting a capable 3C in that position while upgrading the defense does not create a hole. It deals from a position of strength and depth to improve a position of weakness.
I like how you just assume Laughton's capable of assuming 200 minutes of ice-time short-handed, and over 900 faceoffs taken, using a sample size of 5 games.

Not really a "downgrade" so much as a poorly calculated gamble. Like this year, assuming Couturier and Schenn could replace the offensive production of Richards and Carter, and Hartnell, Simmonds, Read, and Talbot all could repeat career years.

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04-25-2013, 07:41 PM
  #217
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I like how you just assume Laughton's capable of assuming 200 minutes of ice-time short-handed, and over 900 faceoffs taken, using a sample size of 5 games.

Not really a "downgrade" so much as a poorly calculated gamble. Like this year, assuming Couturier and Schenn could replace the offensive production of Richards and Carter, and Hartnell, Simmonds, Read, and Talbot all could repeat career years.
I'm not one to overrate prospects around here, but I think it is safe to say that Laughton would make this team as the 3C if one of the centers gets traded. He almost made the team this year. And again, I have been saying this entire time I don't think he will do as well as Couturier. He won't. I agree. But Laughton (or whomever were to play 3C if Couturier is dealt) is not going to just go out there and flail about because its not Couturier. And you also have to factor in the upgrade on the blue line that you are getting.

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04-25-2013, 08:52 PM
  #218
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I like how you just assume Laughton's capable of assuming 200 minutes of ice-time short-handed, and over 900 faceoffs taken, using a sample size of 5 games.

Not really a "downgrade" so much as a poorly calculated gamble. Like this year, assuming Couturier and Schenn could replace the offensive production of Richards and Carter, and Hartnell, Simmonds, Read, and Talbot all could repeat career years.
Yes but this could be replaced by a Jay McClement type. Also, Carter and Richards offense has been replaced. Their 2 way play hasn't.

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04-25-2013, 08:59 PM
  #219
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Here is another marker of how good Couts is:

Guys he faces most often:

Nash
Richards
Gaborik
Malkin
Tavares
Neal
Kovalchuk

He is against the opponents top line pretty much every night against PPG players...

And still has a +2.4 relative Corsi and 13% more O zone finishes than starts.

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04-25-2013, 09:02 PM
  #220
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As long as we don't trade Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Couts, or either Schenn i'll be happy. I would be fine trading anyone else, especially if it was for a coveted defenseman

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04-25-2013, 09:37 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But trading Couturier (or Schenn, or Laughton) doesn't open up a new hole. You have to look at it on balance, not just looking at the names. Couturier has the potential to be a top defensive forward. He is already showing he can shut down guys like Malkin on a very consistent basis. That is indisputable. The kid can play. But long term, the Flyers have Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Laughton, and Cousins currently playing center, and playing fairly well at their respective levels. Giroux will not be traded. Schenn has as high a ceiling as Couturier, but plays a very different game. Laughton, from what I understand, plays a similar game to Couturier. I'm not saying Laughton is as good now or ever will be as good as Couturier, but all indication is that his ceiling is a solid top 9 defensive forward. Cousins is kind of a wild card and I'm not really sure where he factors in on an NHL level, but he is currently looking like he is headed to a nice NHL career.

That being said, there is not room on this team for five centers. Even if you move one of these guys to wing, I don't think it very likely or wise to have Couturier or Laughton or Cousins on the fourth line (depending on who is moved to wing). This is why I feel that someone is going to be dealt.

This isn't a lack of patience. This isn't poor asset management. This isn't opening up a hole to try for a quick fix. This is looking at your team and saying, "Hey, we have a huge logjam at center. We also have no one in the system that really has the ability to be a consistent top four guy moving forward and our defense has been God-awful since Pronger went down. Maybe we should move one of these centers and try to fix the defense instead of holding on to all of these guys who in all likelihood will not be able to be on the NHL roster at the same time without moving at least one of them to wing and burying another on the fourth line."

Assuming they kept all these guys, best case scenario the team would look something like this when all these guys reached the NHL...

XXX-Giroux-XXX
Schenn-Couturier-XXX
XXX-Laughton-Cousins

That's if Cousins and Schenn can play on the wing. I honestly don't know how likely that is that they make that transition. If it is not a big deal and players switch positions all the time and no one complains about being asked to do this, then sure, keep everyone and try and develop a defenseman. But you risk stunting a guy's development or making someone unhappy by asking them to switch positions to make room for someone else. I'd rather deal from a position of depth to upgrade a position of weakness, than just horde all these centers and hope that we can convert them to wings.
Canuck fan...

I think you should assume Laughton won't be ready next season. Couturier is 20 heading into next season and can't really complain about the minutes he gets. They should spend the year figuring out what they have in he and Schenn. Both are valid trade candidates (as is Laughton) Whoever does not fit can be traded the following season. No rush. Their value is only going to increase.

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04-25-2013, 09:38 PM
  #222
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For everyone saying that skating can't be improved, I don't really have to go too far back in Flyers to find the counter to that point.

R.
J.
Umberger
And the sedins.

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04-25-2013, 10:00 PM
  #223
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I'm not one to overrate prospects around here, but I think it is safe to say that Laughton would make this team as the 3C if one of the centers gets traded. He almost made the team this year. And again, I have been saying this entire time I don't think he will do as well as Couturier. He won't. I agree. But Laughton (or whomever were to play 3C if Couturier is dealt) is not going to just go out there and flail about because its not Couturier. And you also have to factor in the upgrade on the blue line that you are getting.
Why not trade Laughton? Why not try him on the wing? If Bryz is indeed coming back next year, there is no goalie situation to resolve, which leaves the D. You need three of those, one established nhler, one nhl ready prospect, and one blue chip pick. Nurse could fill the pick requirement. Trade laughton for gormley. Pick up a player like Ballard after he's bought out, or try another offer sheet for a RFA.

Done.

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04-25-2013, 10:06 PM
  #224
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Why not trade Laughton? Why not try him on the wing? If Bryz is indeed coming back next year, there is no goalie situation to resolve, which leaves the D. You need three of those, one established nhler, one nhl ready prospect, and one blue chip pick. Nurse could fill the pick requirement. Trade laughton for gormley. Pick up a player like Ballard after he's bought out, or try another offer sheet for a RFA.

Done.
Nurse will probably be gone where we are drafting.

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04-25-2013, 10:10 PM
  #225
FLYERSFAN18
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If we aren't trading up to get Jones, I would rather just take best player available regardless of position and then fill our holes through FA, minor trades, and/or promotions from within the organization.

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