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Old
04-24-2013, 09:47 PM
  #751
redtitan20
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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
With all the talk, inuendo. conspiracy theory, maybe this is SMHA/GSHL/SBAAHL executives "master plan," .... Make the "sane" insane by talking about it so much.. lol. Folks, I need a break... This is too much already.
That can be your conspiracy theory, I never did care and still don't, just offering my thoughts.

Politics and egos have always been involved and always will be. Some volunteers are in it for the kids, some only for their kids.

Saskatoon 98 class not strong anyway. Don't believe it would've mattered one draft spot if they were playing in SBAAHL or GSHL. 99 and 00 class don't look much better so why does any of this matter?

Influential 2000 GSHL parents? That's funny! There's a couple crazies for sure!

SBAAHL AGM and vote is May 11. FACT.

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04-24-2013, 11:43 PM
  #752
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Sorry, but you said zone 4 has done poorly and has no where to draw from. The city of Yorkton has 16, 000 people. Have you seen their enrollment numbers? they've got 5 initiation, 4 or 5 novice, etc, etc... Their pee wee AA team has been the best team in the province two years in a row and will likely be the SBAAHL champs and western rep in two years.

I don't see anything as having to be revamped. Sask First is bloody well about the players first. The quality AA players make Sask First, period. When they get on their zone team, that's their time to shine. The tournament is absolutely and 100% nothing to do with the zones. Who cares who wins? It's the players. The players are representing the zone. The players are all looked at by scouts at Sask First. That's what the spirit of Sask First is for. To identify kids worth a closer look. People are placing way too much emphasis on "zone" and not enough on the kids that are on those teams.

What would you all want to do? Re-structure the whole province for the sake of a weekend tournament? What's the significance folks? Scouts are not concerned with the scoreboard there. In fact, I submit that scouts are more impressed with players who elevate their team mates game throughout the weekend then they are about the scores. They're not sipping back a pop in their hotel room talking about who waxed who. They're talking about who impressed them.
I was not talking about how Yorkton has done in peewees. I know they have dominated the league last year and this year. They have a strong crop of 99,2000 and a couple 2001's. Every area in the province goes through times where they have a strong age group. Yorkton 98's were not very strong this year as most of the scoring done on the team was done by 99's. What I am talking about is how certain zones have done over the past five years or so. Zone four has not won a game in that stretch and have been blown out a few times in the Sask First tournament. SHA should look at a different way to show case the provincial talent. Yes Yorkton has 16000 people and yes they do have lots of kids registered and yes they have half of Melville.LOL. Just go on the sha website and look at the populations in each zone and then you will know what I am talking about.

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04-25-2013, 08:17 AM
  #753
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I was not talking about how Yorkton has done in peewees. I know they have dominated the league last year and this year. They have a strong crop of 99,2000 and a couple 2001's. Every area in the province goes through times where they have a strong age group. Yorkton 98's were not very strong this year as most of the scoring done on the team was done by 99's. What I am talking about is how certain zones have done over the past five years or so. Zone four has not won a game in that stretch and have been blown out a few times in the Sask First tournament. SHA should look at a different way to show case the provincial talent. Yes Yorkton has 16000 people and yes they do have lots of kids registered and yes they have half of Melville.LOL. Just go on the sha website and look at the populations in each zone and then you will know what I am talking about.
Nothing needs to change folks. It is a single tournament. You have said it well right here, it's all cyclical. Forget about S'toon and Regina as a standard, they're up and down too. Here's some perspective, zone 7 has two small cities Kindersley and the Battlefords plus a handful of towns with 2, 500 +, with great enrollment numbers in those communities, they finished in what?... C side? So by all accounts would some consider this to be a failure? Based on what? Before people get all bent out of shape on re-structuring they first need to look inward at their own communities hockey programs and re-shape that. That's where things are going off the rails. If there was quality coaching available across the zones you would see potentially more players being developed and competing in your zone for Sask First. The reality is this is not happening. Folks plain and simple, there are only so many kids who can compete at AA, Sask First, AAA and junior. Re-structure all you want, that's the facts. By re-structuring and drawing more talent you'll never give that kid from a two horse town any glimmer of hope. Scouts look for raw talent at bantam. Something to work with. They have an eye for it. Pro hockey is full of lads who come from small town anywhere.

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04-25-2013, 09:54 AM
  #754
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My comments regarding SaskFirst re-drawing the zones have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the zones and everything to do with the best interest of the kids.

If you have one zone drawing from an area with enough kids to make 4 bantam AA teams, and another zone drawing from an area with enough kids to make one, there will inevitably be kids in the former that don't make SaskFirst even though they are more deserving than kids in the latter who DO make it.

Hockey needs to get rid of this mentality that everything is perfect as it is and that nothing can ever be improved. Things can always be improved, even things that are good already (like SaskFirst).

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04-25-2013, 10:21 AM
  #755
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Westerns... What's wrong with wanting to compete and show well? WC won bronze. Third best team in Western Canada, not bad folks. Not bad. Sure they blew it in playdowns and came in the back door. Still won bronze.
Nothing is wrong with wanting to compete at Westerns. However, I do see a lot wrong with revamping the entire provincial hockey system for the sole purpose of doing so, since pure facts dictate that no competitiveness is possible unless we go to 10 teams.

Using West Central's bronze as an example of our competitiveness is ignoring the fact that they lost 6-0 to the team they ended up beating in the bronze medal game. The Sask representatives at Westerns were outscored 38-10 in games against the other provincial reps.

Not taking anything away from West Central, but their Bronze was an exception to the rule, not evidence of a new trend.

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04-25-2013, 10:46 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Nothing is wrong with wanting to compete at Westerns. However, I do see a lot wrong with revamping the entire provincial hockey system for the sole purpose of doing so, since pure facts dictate that no competitiveness is possible unless we go to 10 teams.

Using West Central's bronze as an example of our competitiveness is ignoring the fact that they lost 6-0 to the team they ended up beating in the bronze medal game. The Sask representatives at Westerns were outscored 38-10 in games against the other provincial reps.

Not taking anything away from West Central, but their Bronze was an exception to the rule, not evidence of a new trend.
No arguments here... Same thing could happen to the Blades at the Mem Cup... Mess the bed in post season and back door their way as the host team. I don't like the host team automatically making it to Westerns but that's for another day. We don't need to re-vamp anything for the sake of Westerns. As I mentioned before that is nothing but the extra gravy for a season well played for our provincial champ. Nothing more than exposure and experience.

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04-25-2013, 10:58 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
My comments regarding SaskFirst re-drawing the zones have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the zones and everything to do with the best interest of the kids.

If you have one zone drawing from an area with enough kids to make 4 bantam AA teams, and another zone drawing from an area with enough kids to make one, there will inevitably be kids in the former that don't make SaskFirst even though they are more deserving than kids in the latter who DO make it.

Hockey needs to get rid of this mentality that everything is perfect as it is and that nothing can ever be improved. Things can always be improved, even things that are good already (like SaskFirst).
Can you provide me with the number of kids enrolled in the zones you are referring to please. From that number how many tried out for Sask First. I would like to debate this further but numbers and specific zones will help. As far as kids in one zone not making it due to numbers game, some examples please. As far as kids in the latter who are not deserving, I'm not asking for examples but perhaps elaborate. Are we talking tier II were taken because numbers were not strong enough from AA kids who geographically reside in the zone? Were those kids that "bad" or was it a case of they can play at that level but chose to place house that season? Because if that's the case, give me the house league players name(s) because if they played a whole season at tier II and played stride for stride with AA players then you've got something there. If he's mentally there as well, you've got a skilled player who was well coached. If you've got the skill, the mental and the obvious desire (obviously not intimidated by the AA players at the tryout) to compete, I'm sold.

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04-25-2013, 11:16 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
No arguments here... Same thing could happen to the Blades at the Mem Cup... Mess the bed in post season and back door their way as the host team. I don't like the host team automatically making it to Westerns but that's for another day. We don't need to re-vamp anything for the sake of Westerns. As I mentioned before that is nothing but the extra gravy for a season well played for our provincial champ. Nothing more than exposure and experience.
Disagree with the point about the Blades. The Blades are not facing any systemic barriers to success. They have the same ability to draw talented players as everybody else. In the SK vs. AB/BC/MB bantam scenario, the latter have much larger drawing pools, which is the systemic barrier to the SK rep winning. Totally not the same as the Blades in any way whatsoever.

It's the systemic barrier in this case that is not worth trying to overcome, because doing so would mean wrecking hockey in SK.

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04-25-2013, 11:21 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
Can you provide me with the number of kids enrolled in the zones you are referring to please. From that number how many tried out for Sask First. I would like to debate this further but numbers and specific zones will help. As far as kids in one zone not making it due to numbers game, some examples please. As far as kids in the latter who are not deserving, I'm not asking for examples but perhaps elaborate. Are we talking tier II were taken because numbers were not strong enough from AA kids who geographically reside in the zone? Were those kids that "bad" or was it a case of they can play at that level but chose to place house that season? Because if that's the case, give me the house league players name(s) because if they played a whole season at tier II and played stride for stride with AA players then you've got something there. If he's mentally there as well, you've got a skilled player who was well coached. If you've got the skill, the mental and the obvious desire (obviously not intimidated by the AA players at the tryout) to compete, I'm sold.
I don't really think any numbers are required for this discussion. I think if you consider the drawing areas for each zone, and then mentally overlay them on top of the drawing areas for the Bantam AA teams, you can see that the zones are a little lopsided.

Zone 1 draws from the same area that makes up Estevan, Weyburn, part of Melville and most of Balgonie. Usually these teams are strong if not dominant. Zone 4 draws from most of Yorkton and some of Melville. Sometimes these teams are strong, sometimes not, and there is maybe 1.5 teams in the latter group, and 3+ in the former.

I think it was 3 years ago where Zone 4 had half a team full of tier 2 players. I don't have any specific examples of kids in any zone that were better than those kids and missed out on the chance to play in another zone. All I'm saying is that it stands to reason that a zone drawing from 3+ competitive AA teams would leave some kids out that might make a zone drawing from 2 AA teams.

Regardless, there are many things that need to be fixed more than the SK First zones. But they're probably not perfect either.

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04-25-2013, 11:35 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
Disagree with the point about the Blades. The Blades are not facing any systemic barriers to success. They have the same ability to draw talented players as everybody else. In the SK vs. AB/BC/MB bantam scenario, the latter have much larger drawing pools, which is the systemic barrier to the SK rep winning. Totally not the same as the Blades in any way whatsoever.

It's the systemic barrier in this case that is not worth trying to overcome, because doing so would mean wrecking hockey in SK.
No Rink Rat, I was only referring to back dooring into a championship when potentially not deserving it ie) Being a host team.

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04-26-2013, 12:16 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
I don't really think any numbers are required for this discussion. I think if you consider the drawing areas for each zone, and then mentally overlay them on top of the drawing areas for the Bantam AA teams, you can see that the zones are a little lopsided.

Zone 1 draws from the same area that makes up Estevan, Weyburn, part of Melville and most of Balgonie. Usually these teams are strong if not dominant. Zone 4 draws from most of Yorkton and some of Melville. Sometimes these teams are strong, sometimes not, and there is maybe 1.5 teams in the latter group, and 3+ in the former.

I think it was 3 years ago where Zone 4 had half a team full of tier 2 players. I don't have any specific examples of kids in any zone that were better than those kids and missed out on the chance to play in another zone. All I'm saying is that it stands to reason that a zone drawing from 3+ competitive AA teams would leave some kids out that might make a zone drawing from 2 AA teams.

Regardless, there are many things that need to be fixed more than the SK First zones. But they're probably not perfect either.
For everyone's sake I've broken down all Sask First zone teams this year and the amount of AA players (plus AAA players) playing for each zone. This includes goalies. Out of 20 man rosters this is the break down:

Zone 1: 19
Zone 2: Regina AA 20
Zone 3: 18
Zone 4: 16
Zone 5: 17
Zone 6: Saskatoon AA 20
Zone 7: 17
Zone 8: 18

Zone 8 ended up on the D side, Zone 7 in the C, Zone 5 in the B and Zone 6 & 1 in the A... Can someone fill in the gaps with zones 2, 3, 4 please.

What I am saying is forget about the actual scores... If I had a kid living in zone 4 I would look at the positive in that maybe he has a better shot at making the zone team... This is cyclical. I'll go out on a limb here and say that next year and the following year, that zone 4 will be very strong (Yorkton based). Tougher to make for a small town kid. I think we all have to agree that aside from zone 2 and 6 this is fairly balanced as far as AA/AAA players picked up is concerned. Sure not perfect, but what is?

Zone 8: Majority are Humboldt, PA (two weakest teams in the north)
Zone 7: Majority are Battleford and West Central kids (WC best team, Battleford 4th)
Zone 6: Saskatoon AA
Zone 5: Majority are SV (SV ended up coming on strong in play offs)
Zone 4: Majority are Yorkton and Melville ( 4th and 7th in the south)
Zone 3: Majority Swift and MJ (2nd and last in the south)
Zone 2: Regina AA (1st, 5th, 6th in south)
Zone 1: Smattering of ND AAA's, Melville, PS (PS 3rd and Melville middle of pack)

So when we all look at the break downs and team dynamics, are we really surprised where each ended up? Perhaps with zone 7... Bad tourney perhaps? Are things really that broke?

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04-26-2013, 04:20 PM
  #762
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If Saskatoon is not voted into league I'd hope that Saskatoon would allow those who wish to try out with other teams the chance to. I know that won't happen but maybe if it did there would be a extreme push to get it done next year by both sides.

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04-26-2013, 04:23 PM
  #763
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If Saskatoon is not voted into league I'd hope that Saskatoon would allow those who wish to try out with other teams the chance to. I know that won't happen but maybe if it did there would be a extreme push to get it done next year by both sides.
That doesn't make any sense to me. You expect them to say "you don't want us in the league, but we're going to let you water down the quality of our own league by taking our players"?

As much as I'd like the two sides to find a way to get this done, I think the worst possible of all outcomes is to strip Saskatoon of more players.

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04-26-2013, 08:56 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
That doesn't make any sense to me. You expect them to say "you don't want us in the league, but we're going to let you water down the quality of our own league by taking our players"?

As much as I'd like the two sides to find a way to get this done, I think the worst possible of all outcomes is to strip Saskatoon of more players.
You just don't get it, propose with 5 see if your in your not? How stubborn can you get! Maybe if you'd change your no,no,no policy the fix would be easy.

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04-27-2013, 09:16 AM
  #765
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[QUOTE=SaskRinkRat;64634133]My comments regarding SaskFirst re-drawing the zones have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the zones and everything to do with the best interest of the kids.

I'm thinking that giving kids a chance when grown men can't figure out a simple solution is keeping the best interest of the kids in this matter. (regarding Stoon kids releases).

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04-27-2013, 09:52 AM
  #766
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[QUOTE=nah68;64749941]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskRinkRat View Post
My comments regarding SaskFirst re-drawing the zones have nothing to do with the competitiveness of the zones and everything to do with the best interest of the kids.

I'm thinking that giving kids a chance when grown men can't figure out a simple solution is keeping the best interest of the kids in this matter. (regarding Stoon kids releases).
Amen brother! Be careful stating that its a 'simple solution' .. Redtitan might ask you to prove that your opinion is a fact!

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Old
04-27-2013, 10:11 AM
  #767
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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
Forwards

Petruic
Gardner
Leschyshyn
Foster
Holt
Tuffs
Milligan
Bzdel
Antoniadias
McLeod

Goalies

Gryzbowski, Arps


Defense

Stratechuk
Johnston
Kustra
Prefontaine
Pachal
Sawatzky
Markevich

Size, speed, smarts, sandpaper, snipers and tenacious.
Wow enough people of Ukrainian origin is Saskatchewan?

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04-27-2013, 10:48 PM
  #768
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Wow enough people of Ukrainian origin is Saskatchewan?
We like our perogies in SK.... Make us big and strong. Thanks Wings5. You've been around for awhile. Are you an ex-pat perhaps? Check in once and a while..... Many more Ukes are up and coming

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04-27-2013, 10:58 PM
  #769
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I'm assuming no one is rebutting my post about five posts up regarding my break down on zones? I like the discussion folks but as you can clearly, clearly see, there is equal distribution. As equal as it's going to get. Here is a graver concern for me... Why is Moose Jaw simply not competing well at aa bantam. Anyone close to that situation? I would think a community that size should be competitive... How's enrolment numbers? Coaching? Politics? Bad year? All of the above? Even if they lost a few top players to ND surely their younger programs should be feeding their AA systems? I'm not from those parts. Anyone?

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04-28-2013, 05:41 PM
  #770
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Does anyone have an explanation as to why Zone 1 does not have a Midget AAA team? Seems odd considering that zone dominates at the zone tournament every year.

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04-28-2013, 05:52 PM
  #771
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Zone 1 Midget AAA

This area has tried on a number of occasions to have a team. Their was an unsuccessful group that had the infastructure in place to put a team in Midale which is a small town between Estevan and Weyburn. The league is not interested in expansion and the Zone is an excellent feeder system for all the other teams in the league. Hence for self interest reasons they vote against placing a team in this area.

Estevan has a brand new facility and the money necessary to finance and support a team but the above two barriers must go away either a change of heart by the other teams in the league and/or an existing team folding and the league looking for a place for relocation.

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04-28-2013, 06:31 PM
  #772
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Zones Breakdown and MJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
I'm assuming no one is rebutting my post about five posts up regarding my break down on zones? I like the discussion folks but as you can clearly, clearly see, there is equal distribution. As equal as it's going to get. Here is a graver concern for me... Why is Moose Jaw simply not competing well at aa bantam. Anyone close to that situation? I would think a community that size should be competitive... How's enrolment numbers? Coaching? Politics? Bad year? All of the above? Even if they lost a few top players to ND surely their younger programs should be feeding their AA systems? I'm not from those parts. Anyone?
Great breakdown on zones!! I like and agree with the attitude that it is all about the kids, however I dont see any problem with SHA tinkering with the zone config. Again it needs to be based on participation numbers per zone. I would assume SHA has these numbers so I dont see why they would not adjust accordingly. There is an imbalance that exists and I think your analysis points this out so I dont know why you have a reluctance for change. Sure there are ebs and flows year over year in talent levels zone to zone. Still I think there is an imbalance in the playing field that needs to be addressed. As someone said on these boards said " if they are not there to monitor these inequities then why do they even need to exist at all"

RE MJ I have talked about this before - they have a closed door mentality about their hockey program until PeeWee where they finally run A and AA programs.
They dont believe in Atom AA hockey.(they dont even run a Tier II program in Novice or Atom) If you look at places that have Atom AA programs such as Estevan,Weyburn and especially Yorkton they seem to have done a little better job of development. The problem may not be that they dont run a more elite stream at the younger ages per se ,rather it speaks to the philosophy of their entire minor hockey program. It is a model for the masses. Much like the city has a social leaning to the left politically, I think this philosophy has leaked into their minor hockey programs as well.
They also have an ageing population so I am sure their hockey numbers have been on the decline.
If I am in a rural minor hockey system or live in MJ I would ask the question as to why Regina and Saskatoon should be the only centers in the province to run tiered hockey programs at the younger ages. To me these systems motivate kids to work hard to try to get better in order to make these teams thus leading to better skills and development. They also definitely get better coaching and the coaches are able to run more high end drills and overall practices that leads to better development. Playing up level games of hockey against better players also causes better development because mentally kids know they have to step up their game to compete at the higher level.

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04-28-2013, 10:40 PM
  #773
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Just noticed something that I find interesting.

Only 3 of the top 17 assist getters was from the north, 14 from the south.

I can only assume that they are more generous with the 2nd assists down there? I wonder if/how much that skews total points.

I thought maybe that the south was higher scoring in general and that could account for the discrepancy, but that is not the case

North scored 4.346 goals/game
South scored 4.129 goals/game


Last edited by nosoup: 04-28-2013 at 10:58 PM. Reason: added gpg
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04-28-2013, 10:57 PM
  #774
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We like our perogies in SK.... Make us big and strong. Thanks Wings5. You've been around for awhile. Are you an ex-pat perhaps? Check in once and a while..... Many more Ukes are up and coming
Nope not an ex-pat just an avid follower of junior hockey. I'm from Ontario so I'm not too familiar with SSK hockey but I do follow the Dub closely. I will check in once and a while for sure thanks. Btw good to see Ukes like Klimchuk, progressing and Sawchenko coming up for Moose Jaw. Hopefully soon they can join the likes of Bozak, Johnny Boychuk etc in the NHL. At least here in Ontario they always seemed to have an athletic edge over others.

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04-29-2013, 01:19 AM
  #775
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Great breakdown on zones!! I like and agree with the attitude that it is all about the kids, however I dont see any problem with SHA tinkering with the zone config. Again it needs to be based on participation numbers per zone. I would assume SHA has these numbers so I dont see why they would not adjust accordingly. There is an imbalance that exists and I think your analysis points this out so I dont know why you have a reluctance for change. Sure there are ebs and flows year over year in talent levels zone to zone. Still I think there is an imbalance in the playing field that needs to be addressed. As someone said on these boards said " if they are not there to monitor these inequities then why do they even need to exist at all"

RE MJ I have talked about this before - they have a closed door mentality about their hockey program until PeeWee where they finally run A and AA programs.
They dont believe in Atom AA hockey.(they dont even run a Tier II program in Novice or Atom) If you look at places that have Atom AA programs such as Estevan,Weyburn and especially Yorkton they seem to have done a little better job of development. The problem may not be that they dont run a more elite stream at the younger ages per se ,rather it speaks to the philosophy of their entire minor hockey program. It is a model for the masses. Much like the city has a social leaning to the left politically, I think this philosophy has leaked into their minor hockey programs as well.
They also have an ageing population so I am sure their hockey numbers have been on the decline.
If I am in a rural minor hockey system or live in MJ I would ask the question as to why Regina and Saskatoon should be the only centers in the province to run tiered hockey programs at the younger ages. To me these systems motivate kids to work hard to try to get better in order to make these teams thus leading to better skills and development. They also definitely get better coaching and the coaches are able to run more high end drills and overall practices that leads to better development. Playing up level games of hockey against better players also causes better development because mentally kids know they have to step up their game to compete at the higher level.
Thanks for the insight on MJ. This is too bad and I agree whole heartedly with tiered hockey. It truly is the only way to get skilled players heading in the right direction.

We will agree to disagree on the zone re-structuring... Heh, we can revisit it again as the entire board seems to be an ebb and flow! lol. Back and forth, round and round we go.

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