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MacTavish New GM | Tambellini Fired | Howson Promoted to SVP

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Old
04-27-2013, 08:30 PM
  #326
Sheikyerbouti
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He either knew Nill wanted to be a boss, and chose his buddy

Or didn't know


Either possibility reeks of incestuous incompetence. Nill is a proven commodity; Dallas is lucky imo

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04-27-2013, 08:31 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Sheikyerbouti View Post
He either knew Nill wanted to be a boss, and chose his buddy

Or didn't know


Either possibility reeks of incestuous incompetence. Nill is a proven commodity; Dallas is lucky imo
That's pretty black and white.

You're ignoring an infinite number of possibilities.

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04-27-2013, 08:37 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Sheikyerbouti View Post
He either knew Nill wanted to be a boss, and chose his buddy

Or didn't know


Either possibility reeks of incestuous incompetence. Nill is a proven commodity; Dallas is lucky imo
he didn't know. he didn't want to know. he was hiring buddy from day one. it was the one and only consideration.

besides. Nil, be from the Wings organization, would immediately site inefficiencies in the Oilers organization and call for sweeping changes. this is something Kevin does not want; for him, everything is just fine and dandy the way it is.

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04-27-2013, 08:40 PM
  #329
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Having so many of these next great GMs and coaches in waiting not succeed, I find myself ambivalent in the Nill vs MacT debate. I would like to see this organization work on middling time structure, the coach hire last year was a bit long, the GM hire this year was a bit fast.

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04-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #330
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Having so many of these next great GMs and coaches in waiting not succeed, I find myself ambivalent in the Nill vs MacT debate. I would like to see this organization work on middling time structure, the coach hire last year was a bit long, the GM hire this year was a bit fast.
Just remember Tambo... He was supposedly "waiting in the wings".

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04-27-2013, 09:16 PM
  #331
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I'm willing to give MacT a chance. He has an eye for talent for sure. He said Roussel from Dallas was going to be a player and he has been. He said Canauton would be a player as well.

He's a smart guy, everyone says that.

I think in player acquisition he will be fine. Player development we will see. Nil definitely would have been better in this area as he has been involved with Detroits development system.

In any case, what is done is done. Time to move on

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04-28-2013, 07:08 AM
  #332
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Don't like MacTrainwreck's answer to the question asked on after hours last night about if anybody was considered untouchable on the team, he basically inferred that everybody is available without actually saying it...not good to hear...giving me bad vibes.

Goddammit, cant believe KbLowe didn't try to get Nill here. GD old boys club, it reminds me of politics, you get in and you give all the best jobs to your buddies, what a load of s***. Only difference is that at least you can vote politicians out once every 4 years. No such luck here though unfortunately. They should just build a carousel in the front office to save time.

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04-28-2013, 08:05 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by TimeForAnOilChange View Post
Don't like MacTrainwreck's answer to the question asked on after hours last night about if anybody was considered untouchable on the team, he basically inferred that everybody is available without actually saying it...not good to hear...giving me bad vibes.
He did say there were certain players that they would really really hate to part with. I believe the big 5 are not going anywhere pretty much ever, Yakupov especially after his comments.

Might find out some info on players other teams want to move through offers on your untouchables though. Doesn't mean you have to take it, but it can reveal who's available. Plus I don't think the players should ever become too comfortable because there is a huge attitude problem in this locker room.

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04-28-2013, 12:32 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by TimeForAnOilChange View Post
Don't like MacTrainwreck's answer to the question asked on after hours last night about if anybody was considered untouchable on the team, he basically inferred that everybody is available without actually saying it...not good to hear...giving me bad vibes.
I think you're putting words into his mouth... he basically said you can never say never, but it would have to be an amazing deal for him to move some guys. Come on... if Pittsburgh offered Crosby and Malkin, wouldn't you move Yak?

I really think what he was saying is that he's not afraid to pull the trigger on a deal if it will improve the team, something it always appeared Tabelinni would not do.

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04-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #335
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Regarding Nill... I know it's vogue to want everything connected to the Red Wings, but what are the amazing transactions the Wings have done recently (say the last ten years) to give him this Godly status?

Lucking out in the draft with Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg (both where they got them in the draft and that these guys were humble enough to accept discounts) has a lot to do with their success. Take those away and I don't see what separates them from a handful of other inconsistently successful teams.

Just playing devil's advocate. I don't know how we all know Nill is better than MacTavish off hand.

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04-28-2013, 12:54 PM
  #336
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That's pretty black and white.

You're ignoring an infinite number of possibilities.
I think your trying to over complicate a relatively simple situation in my opinion.

Rishaug has stated Lowe didn't interview anyone else. Then today, Jim Nill becomes GM of Dallas. A man who's helped construct the flagship franchise of the NHL.

I'll give MacT a chance, but a guy of Jim Nill's caliber doesn't come around too often.

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04-28-2013, 01:01 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Regarding Nill... I know it's vogue to want everything connected to the Red Wings, but what are the amazing transactions the Wings have done recently (say the last ten years) to give him this Godly status?

Lucking out in the draft with Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg (both where they got them in the draft and that these guys were humble enough to accept discounts) has a lot to do with their success. Take those away and I don't see what separates them from a handful of other inconsistently successful teams.

Just playing devil's advocate. I don't know how we all know Nill is better than MacTavish off hand.
This.
Those guys have lived off the avails of getting insanely lucky in the draft a long long time ago.

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04-28-2013, 01:09 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
I think your trying to over complicate a relatively simple situation in my opinion.

Rishaug has stated Lowe didn't interview anyone else. Then today, Jim Nill becomes GM of Dallas. A man who's helped construct the flagship franchise of the NHL.

I'll give MacT a chance, but a guy of Jim Nill's caliber doesn't come around too often.
Yeah cause thats how easy it was.

Maybe Detroit wouldn't give Oilers Permission.

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04-28-2013, 01:11 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
Regarding Nill... I know it's vogue to want everything connected to the Red Wings, but what are the amazing transactions the Wings have done recently (say the last ten years) to give him this Godly status?

Lucking out in the draft with Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg (both where they got them in the draft and that these guys were humble enough to accept discounts) has a lot to do with their success. Take those away and I don't see what separates them from a handful of other inconsistently successful teams.

Just playing devil's advocate. I don't know how we all know Nill is better than MacTavish off hand.
What amazing transactions have the Red Wings done? How about get into the playoffs for 21 straight years.

Or how about getting the most out of veterans? Bert has been more than serviceable for them, and considering how he was broken down, that's pretty fantastic.

Or how about developing prospects. They will let a prospect develop until that prospect is truly ready for the big leagues. Look what they did with Ericsson and Kindl. Took their sweet time with them, and now they've got a nice pair of second pairing D-man(at worst). Post Nik Lidstrom, this season that team gave up the least number of ES GA in the entire league.

I know HF is very 'what have you done for me lately', and the fact that they haven't found another Datsyuk or Lidstrom or Z is outrageous, this franchise kept up a level of success for the past 2 decades that has rarely been seen in sports. Jim Nill has been a big part of that. Obviously we won't know what parts intimately, but to say they haven't done much since after drafting Dats, Z and Nik is a little absurd.

Again, I'll give MacT a chance. No reason not to, but passing on Nill who ticked a ton of boxes for us, is tough to swallow. I honestly didn't think he'd be open to move.

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04-28-2013, 01:16 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by TimeForAnOilChange View Post
Don't like MacTrainwreck's answer to the question asked on after hours last night about if anybody was considered untouchable on the team, he basically inferred that everybody is available without actually saying it...not good to hear...giving me bad vibes.

Goddammit, cant believe KbLowe didn't try to get Nill here. GD old boys club, it reminds me of politics, you get in and you give all the best jobs to your buddies, what a load of s***. Only difference is that at least you can vote politicians out once every 4 years. No such luck here though unfortunately. They should just build a carousel in the front office to save time.
Funny, I took the exact opposite from the interview - I was quite reassured with the praise he had for players like Yakupov - it doesn't seem like they're going anywhere

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04-28-2013, 01:17 PM
  #341
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Again, I'll give MacT a chance. No reason not to, but passing on Nill who ticked a ton of boxes for us, is tough to swallow. I honestly didn't think he'd be open to move.
But we don't know that they passed on Nill. That's just an assumption being made.

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04-28-2013, 01:25 PM
  #342
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Me)=h. Give MacT a chance.

As far as the Red Wings go, I think it's easier to properly develop emerging players for them due to the depth of their team. For teams like the Oilers that are not so deep in the talent pool, they unfortunately have had to bring in under developed guys to the big team because they simply do not have the depth to do it the Red Wing way.

Just my opinion of course.

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04-28-2013, 01:36 PM
  #343
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When people say we should get Nill as GM or Tortellini or Ruff as coach they seemingly don't understand the king **** self appointed nature of KLowe, with his 6 rings, running things.

To put it blunt Lowe sees himself as better than Nill, I would guarantee this, and the last thing he would do is put somebody in a position where his own was ever threatened. Tambo was always the ideal hire for Lowe (and I said so at the time) because he was a perfect incapable stooge. A guy guaranteed to not be a threat. A spent Quinn was another. A spent Renney another. Howson absolutely another.

Anybody who thinks we are getting a prime alpha candidate in here either as coach or GM really doesn't understand K Lowes chicken nest catbird seat very well.

Dream on in technicolor.

Grand poobah won't have it.

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04-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #344
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What amazing transactions have the Red Wings done? How about get into the playoffs for 21 straight years.

Or how about getting the most out of veterans? Bert has been more than serviceable for them, and considering how he was broken down, that's pretty fantastic.

Or how about developing prospects. They will let a prospect develop until that prospect is truly ready for the big leagues. Look what they did with Ericsson and Kindl. Took their sweet time with them, and now they've got a nice pair of second pairing D-man(at worst). Post Nik Lidstrom, this season that team gave up the least number of ES GA in the entire league.

I know HF is very 'what have you done for me lately', and the fact that they haven't found another Datsyuk or Lidstrom or Z is outrageous, this franchise kept up a level of success for the past 2 decades that has rarely been seen in sports. Jim Nill has been a big part of that. Obviously we won't know what parts intimately, but to say they haven't done much since after drafting Dats, Z and Nik is a little absurd.

Again, I'll give MacT a chance. No reason not to, but passing on Nill who ticked a ton of boxes for us, is tough to swallow. I honestly didn't think he'd be open to move.
Keep in mind, you have to be winning to be able to nurture and develop said prospects. Winning usually keeps teams in status quo, meaning less roster movement and more development time for prospects. The fact that Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Yzerman carried this team for all these years isn't really a testament to the management but more to the players' talent. Granted the first 3, they lucked out drafting them.

And we haven't been winning haha

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04-28-2013, 02:06 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
What amazing transactions have the Red Wings done? How about get into the playoffs for 21 straight years.

Or how about getting the most out of veterans? Bert has been more than serviceable for them, and considering how he was broken down, that's pretty fantastic.

Or how about developing prospects. They will let a prospect develop until that prospect is truly ready for the big leagues. Look what they did with Ericsson and Kindl. Took their sweet time with them, and now they've got a nice pair of second pairing D-man(at worst). Post Nik Lidstrom, this season that team gave up the least number of ES GA in the entire league.

I know HF is very 'what have you done for me lately', and the fact that they haven't found another Datsyuk or Lidstrom or Z is outrageous, this franchise kept up a level of success for the past 2 decades that has rarely been seen in sports. Jim Nill has been a big part of that. Obviously we won't know what parts intimately, but to say they haven't done much since after drafting Dats, Z and Nik is a little absurd.

Again, I'll give MacT a chance. No reason not to, but passing on Nill who ticked a ton of boxes for us, is tough to swallow. I honestly didn't think he'd be open to move.
Okay, still just playing devil's advocate because people seem to be going over the top with this, but here goes...

Jim Nill apparently joined the front office in '94 and worked his way up through amateur scouting. The '97 deal for Shanny probably wasn't on him, he might have had a part in the '99 Chelios purchase, and he no doubt had a part in drafting guys like Z, Datsyuk, and Kronwall. So points for him, but the 21 year playoff streak cannot be attributed to him. That process started before he came on and was maintained mainly through Yzerman, Lidstrom, and the Russians. It was then helped along by a stanglehold on the pre-cap free agency market with guys like Hull, Robataille, Rafalski, Hasek, etc.

Having said all that, the playoff streak is not even a transaction; it is a feat or a legacy. The post salary cap years matter because they show how much Nill may have helped in continuing that good ol' Red Wing greatness without the pieces that were put in place before him (Fedorov/Yzerman/Lidstrom primarily), or the leg-up that franchises like Dallas, Colorado, Detroit, New York and Philly had over everyone else in attracting free agents before the last lock out.

Your examples don't say all that much to this effect. Bertuzzi the Red Wing is and has been the same player as Bertuzzi the Flame, but he's been playing with Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and Lidstrom, rather than Iginla and... Craig Conroy?

The slow-cooker method of Detroit is also overstated. Petry and Kindl are the same age and have followed a very similar development trajectory but we never talk about that with Petry while Kindl is trotted out as a golden example of the shiny Detroit system. Beyond that, him and Ericksson are serviceable, sure, but nothing special, and calling them second pairing guys at worst might be a bit of a stretch. It also remains to be seen if they are in fact better for having waited longer. Or if the team is. I would contend that needlessly burning a year off of Brendan Smith's ELC last year while paying the King's ransom for a redundant Kyle Quincey was very poor asset management.



From what I can see online, Nill's major contribution has been looking over the Griffins and amateur scouting. I'm not knocking what he's been doing there, it seems like a fine job. While they haven't really drafted any impact players since Franzen, they have a steady stream of Abdelkaders, Hudlers, Helms, and Kindls.

Tambellini had a similar MO coming out of Vancouver. He was in charge of amateur development and the farm, and showing up with roses like Burrows and Bieksa from the dungheap. He also tried to follow the Red Wing model of allowing players to develop and making no drastic moves (last big item for Detroit was probably signing Hossa back in 09). I don't see where Nill's checking all our boxes tbh.

Again, just playing devil's advocate.

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04-28-2013, 02:44 PM
  #346
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What amazing transactions have the Red Wings done? How about get into the playoffs for 21 straight years.

Or how about getting the most out of veterans? Bert has been more than serviceable for them, and considering how he was broken down, that's pretty fantastic.

Or how about developing prospects. They will let a prospect develop until that prospect is truly ready for the big leagues. Look what they did with Ericsson and Kindl. Took their sweet time with them, and now they've got a nice pair of second pairing D-man(at worst). Post Nik Lidstrom, this season that team gave up the least number of ES GA in the entire league.

I know HF is very 'what have you done for me lately', and the fact that they haven't found another Datsyuk or Lidstrom or Z is outrageous, this franchise kept up a level of success for the past 2 decades that has rarely been seen in sports. Jim Nill has been a big part of that. Obviously we won't know what parts intimately, but to say they haven't done much since after drafting Dats, Z and Nik is a little absurd.

Again, I'll give MacT a chance. No reason not to, but passing on Nill who ticked a ton of boxes for us, is tough to swallow. I honestly didn't think he'd be open to move.
Kinda playing devil's advocate here, but my response to your points would be:

- Getting into the playoffs for 21 straight years is remarkable, but it's also a bit of a fluke. Credit where it's due, but there was insane amounts of luck involved, especially with drafting. To go from Yzerman-Fedorov-Shanahan-Lidstrom to Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Lidstrom is a luxury a lot of teams don't get. Now that a piece has finally retired that they weren't able to place (Lidstrom) they're slipping. They're also no longer the promised land for UFAs who want a chance at a cup. The Red Wings are very much on the decline and Nill wasn't able to stop the bleeding this time around.

- I'm not sure we could give credit to Nill for Bertuzzi's resurgence (that might be more of a Babcock thing), although management does get kudos for giving him a shot in the first place.

- Developing prospects that way is something you can only really do if you're at the top of the standings. Even bubble playoff teams sometimes need to fill holes from within the system, and often prematurely. That never really seemed to be a need with Detroit at the top of the standings year after year.

- Todd McLellan was supposed to be a prime head coaching candidate because of his time with Detroit, but he's been kind of "meh" in San Jose.

I definitely don't think Nill would have been a bad choice by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think his #1 attribute is that he worked for the Red Wings when they were powerhouses. That makes me a bit nervous, because it's tough to specifically assign credit for certain moves to the assistant GM... and again, there were barrels of luck involved.

I guess what I like about MacT is that he's coached with a short bench before and he knows how important it is to get players who can actually play NHL minutes behind your first line. He also knows how hard it is to acquire guys like Yakupov and Hall. So even though Nill was available, I'm not necessarily sure that he was a superior choice to MacTavish.

Time will tell though - if Dallas wins a cup with Nill as GM before we do this will look pretty bad.

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04-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #347
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If the Stars make the playoffs next year then Nill's great.

If they miss, then he stinks.

Simple as that.

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04-29-2013, 02:27 AM
  #348
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I think you're putting words into his mouth... he basically said you can never say never, but it would have to be an amazing deal for him to move some guys. Come on... if Pittsburgh offered Crosby and Malkin, wouldn't you move Yak?

I really think what he was saying is that he's not afraid to pull the trigger on a deal if it will improve the team, something it always appeared Tabelinni would not do.
Wasn't putting words into his mouth, just reading between the lines. Him saying "never say never" is exactly what I meant, the question was "is anybody on the team untouchable?" and he didn't give a straight yes or no answer, I just didn't like the way that sounded. He had better not trade the wrong player(s), if he does, there will be no reason for me to back this team anymore, and these last 3 years of "rebuilding" will have been for nothing, an absolute waste of time IMO.

And c'mon man, those 2 players will never be offered up for Yak (I know it was hypothetical, but c'mon, lets live in the real world for a change).

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04-29-2013, 03:18 AM
  #349
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Wasn't putting words into his mouth, just reading between the lines. Him saying "never say never" is exactly what I meant, the question was "is anybody on the team untouchable?" and he didn't give a straight yes or no answer, I just didn't like the way that sounded. He had better not trade the wrong player(s), if he does, there will be no reason for me to back this team anymore, and these last 3 years of "rebuilding" will have been for nothing, an absolute waste of time IMO.

And c'mon man, those 2 players will never be offered up for Yak (I know it was hypothetical, but c'mon, lets live in the real world for a change).
I'm sorry but if Gretzky can be traded anyone can be. Why would he come out and say none of our top players will be traded? What if there was a chance to land a stud #1 defenceman, wouldn't you trade one of the kids? When has any manager for a NHL team came out and gave a straight yes or no answer?

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04-29-2013, 04:17 AM
  #350
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When people say we should get Nill as GM or Tortellini or Ruff as coach they seemingly don't understand the king **** self appointed nature of KLowe, with his 6 rings, running things.

To put it blunt Lowe sees himself as better than Nill, I would guarantee this, and the last thing he would do is put somebody in a position where his own was ever threatened. Tambo was always the ideal hire for Lowe (and I said so at the time) because he was a perfect incapable stooge. A guy guaranteed to not be a threat. A spent Quinn was another. A spent Renney another. Howson absolutely another.

Anybody who thinks we are getting a prime alpha candidate in here either as coach or GM really doesn't understand K Lowes chicken nest catbird seat very well.

Dream on in technicolor.

Grand poobah won't have it.
I simply cannot disagree with this post and that quite frankly is very very sad. In this case he may end up having to actually can MacT at some point or risk the both of them being run out of town (if things don't turn around and the core sours on our team).

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