HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-09-2013, 09:39 AM
  #101
Dom
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 651
vCash: 500
I think that to reach everybody's goals, the simplest would be:

- Start with a top 100 forwards list and complete it.
- That will yield a list with (lets say) 55 centers, 20 left wingers and 25 right wingers. This means you got the top 100 forwards list done and a top 50 centers list.
- Continue the top wingers until it reaches the 50 wingers. You have your top 50 wingers list with (lets say) 23 left wingers and 27 right wingers. The top 25 right wingers list is also done.
- Continue the top left wingers list until it reaches 25.

You end up with top 100 forwards, top 50 centers, top 50 wingers, top 25 left wing, top 25 right wing list adding only a minimal amount of rounds for each.

The position differentiation discussion can occur at the end of the top 100 when the sub lists are populated.

Dom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 10:50 AM
  #102
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom View Post
I think that to reach everybody's goals, the simplest would be:

- Start with a top 100 forwards list and complete it.
- That will yield a list with (lets say) 55 centers, 20 left wingers and 25 right wingers. This means you got the top 100 forwards list done and a top 50 centers list.
- Continue the top wingers until it reaches the 50 wingers. You have your top 50 wingers list with (lets say) 23 left wingers and 27 right wingers. The top 25 right wingers list is also done.
- Continue the top left wingers list until it reaches 25.

You end up with top 100 forwards, top 50 centers, top 50 wingers, top 25 left wing, top 25 right wing list adding only a minimal amount of rounds for each.

The position differentiation discussion can occur at the end of the top 100 when the sub lists are populated.
This is the approach I agree with, as I noted before.

Although as I said, for consistency I think it would be better to have the separate center/all winger lists match up (40 centers/60 wingers) with the defensemen and goalies.

As an aside, I think it would be interesting and informative to do projects like this devoted to particular eras; getting a good feel for the top 30 forwards/20 defensemen/10 goalies for the league during particular times would help with future "best all-time lists, as newer people with less access to information (or knowledge of how to find information) would be able to see the discussions and how they turned out, and what informational sources people turned up (such as online scans of newspaper articles from the mid-70s referencing Lafleur at center). If this is something people are interested in, I submit the high-scoring period (6.9+) from 1978-79 through 1992-93 as the "first" project.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:16 AM
  #103
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom View Post
I think that to reach everybody's goals, the simplest would be:

- Start with a top 100 forwards list and complete it.
- That will yield a list with (lets say) 55 centers, 20 left wingers and 25 right wingers. This means you got the top 100 forwards list done and a top 50 centers list.
- Continue the top wingers until it reaches the 50 wingers. You have your top 50 wingers list with (lets say) 23 left wingers and 27 right wingers. The top 25 right wingers list is also done.
- Continue the top left wingers list until it reaches 25.

You end up with top 100 forwards, top 50 centers, top 50 wingers, top 25 left wing, top 25 right wing list adding only a minimal amount of rounds for each.

The position differentiation discussion can occur at the end of the top 100 when the sub lists are populated.
The point of separating forwards is that it's more straight forward to compare wings to wings and centers to centers, and can therefore get you a more "accurate" list. Doing all the forwards together, then artificially separating them does not accomplish this. Those of us who want to compare Mike Bossy to Bill Cook without worrying about what centers get in the way are not going to be satisfied with this approach.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:18 AM
  #104
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I think there is still more research to be done, but how about this idea for the guys that end up being too close to call...

I think we can all agree that center is the deepest position of all forward positions, followed by RW, and then LW. What if we rank centers first, with all of the borderline guys available...whoever doesn't make the list can be eligible for the RW list (if they played RW too), if they don't make that list, they can be eligible for the LW list (if they played there).

Frank Foyston is a guy who would be eligible for each list if it got that far. Syd Howe on the other hand would not be eligible for RW if he missed the centers list, but would be eligible for LW.
I'd rather try to slot guys into a specific position if possible, before doing something like this. But for close calls, I think I would rather do the shallower positions first to give more guys a chance to make those lists.

Quote:
EDIT: Another idea is to just let those guys be eligible for all lists they qualify for.
But then you run the problem of whether to take a guy's whole career into account, or just what he did at a certain position. And I don't think it's fair to ignore Sid Abel or Alex Delvecchio's time at wing and judge them both only on what they did at center.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:26 AM
  #105
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,836
vCash: 500
Here's how hockey-reference lists Syd Howe each year...

30: LW/C (12GP)
31: LW/C
32: C (3GP)
33: LW/C
34: LW/C
35: LW/C
36: LW/C
37: LW/C
38: C
39: LW
40: C
41: C
42: LW
43: C
44: C
45: C
46: C


Here's where Syd Howe received AS votes...

1940: 1 pt 2nd Team LW
1941: 9 pts 2nd Team LW
1942: 1 pt 2nd Team LW
1943: 2 pts 2nd Team C
1944: 34pts (0-3) C, 7 pts (0-1) RW, 6pts (0-1) LW (no more separate 1st and 2nd Team voting from here on)
1945: 103.5pts (2-4) LW, 7 pts (0-1) C


We may not be able to come to a decision on this one...he may have to be eligible for both lists.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:28 AM
  #106
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
But then you run the problem of whether to take a guy's whole career into account, or just what he did at a certain position. And I don't think it's fair to ignore Sid Abel or Alex Delvecchio's time at wing and judge them both only on what they did at center.
I definitely agree with this...if players are going to be eligible for multiple positions then their entire career should count for both. I would rather have these guys make 2 lists than get shortchanged.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:35 AM
  #107
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,879
vCash: 500
Looks like Howe had six full seasons as a center, just three as a winger, and six in a switch hitting role. You'd think that means I would call him a center, but considering the hr positions aren't gospel and the all star votes in three of these seasons directly contradict them, I feel calling him a winger would be erring on the side of caution.

His bio in The Trail lists a lot of his linemates, over his career. That might shed more light on this.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:47 AM
  #108
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Looks like Howe had six full seasons as a center, just three as a winger, and six in a switch hitting role. You'd think that means I would call him a center, but considering the hr positions aren't gospel and the all star votes in three of these seasons directly contradict them, I feel calling him a winger would be erring on the side of caution.

His bio in The Trail lists a lot of his linemates, over his career. That might shed more light on this.
Howe is a very nasty case to try and pigeonhole; he often switched positions even within games, playing wing, center, and even switching from forward and defense in the same game.

He's the kind of player who is the reason I support an "all-forwards" list. Others include more recent guys like Rod Brind'Amour (played a lot of LW early on before becoming a full-time center), Rick Tocchet (was a center with the Flyers in the 80s, converted to RW and had his best season there, but often switched wings depending on who was healthy later in his career), Kirk Muller, Russ Courtnall, and Vincent Damphousse (I believe we discussed them already), Henrik Zetterberg. Zetterberg has a very interesting career accomplishment; having played the 2007-08 season entirely at center, yet he was named to the second team LW while his primary LW (Pavel Datsyuk) was a close third in center voting (Zetterberg also finished sixth in center voting and 12th in RW voting with a couple second and third place votes that came his way).

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:53 AM
  #109
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Ed Litzenberger

h-r player positions:

1953: C (only a few games)
1954: C (only a few games)
1955: RW
1956: RW
1957: RW
1958: C
1959: RW
1960: RW
1961: RW
1962: RW
1963: RW
1964: RW

All Star votes:

1955: Listed as a C when he won the Calder
1956: 3 points as a LW in 1956
1957: 2nd Team AS C (43 points); 3 points as a RW
1959: Listed as a RW when he received 7 points for the Hart Trophy

Based on H-R, he seems like a RW, but H-R has him as a RW in 1957, when he was a 2nd Team AS at C, so I would like more.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:54 AM
  #110
Hawkman
Moderator
 
Hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
...But then you run the problem of whether to take a guy's whole career into account, or just what he did at a certain position. And I don't think it's fair to ignore Sid Abel or Alex Delvecchio's time at wing and judge them both only on what they did at center.
Agreed. That's why we should obviously do a forwards list. Trying to artificially separate forwards just creates problems as your Abel/Delvecchio example of players who played both C & W proves and as I previously stated.

Hawkman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 11:58 AM
  #111
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd rather try to slot guys into a specific position if possible, before doing something like this. But for close calls, I think I would rather do the shallower positions first to give more guys a chance to make those lists.
Why not slot them in their "primary" position, and then make an all forwards list which includes them, listed alongside all of their positions.

Such as this:

PlayerPos
MessierC/LW
AbelC/LW
ModanoC/RW
DelvecchioC/LW
TkachukLW/C
AndreychukLW/C
BureRW/LW
MogilnyRW/LW
LindenC/RW
etc.

Quote:
But then you run the problem of whether to take a guy's whole career into account, or just what he did at a certain position. And I don't think it's fair to ignore Sid Abel or Alex Delvecchio's time at wing and judge them both only on what they did at center.
Which is all the more argument in favor of "all forwards". If you are saying "judge what the player did as a forward" then their time at wing won't be discounted.

Some recent notable players this would affect include Henrik Zetterberg and Dany Heatley; Zetterberg *should* probably be ranked pretty close to Datsyuk on an "all forwards" list, and Heatley's career is split pretty much in half between the wings. He had some excellent years on the left and some good ones on the right too, but he drops considerably if you don't count them all as a package. Or perhaps he goes up considerably, as almost all of his LW time has been with Ottawa, on the Pizza line. Maybe he gets the Bossy treatment and as he has nothing but stellar numbers on that side, he rockets up the charts?

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 12:02 PM
  #112
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ed Litzenberger

h-r player positions:

1953: C (only a few games)
1954: C (only a few games)
1955: RW
1956: RW
1957: RW
1958: C
1959: RW
1960: RW
1961: RW
1962: RW
1963: RW
1964: RW

All Star votes:

1955: Listed as a C when he won the Calder
1956: 3 points as a LW in 1956
1957: 2nd Team AS C (43 points); 3 points as a RW
1959: Listed as a RW when he received 7 points for the Hart Trophy

Based on H-R, he seems like a RW, but H-R has him as a RW in 1957, when he was a 2nd Team AS at C, so I would like more.
I PM'd pappyline about Litzenberger during the ATD when I was thinking about selecting him. I'm almost positive he said that most of his time was at RW. I wish I had the message saved, but I accidentally deleted it.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 12:08 PM
  #113
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ed Litzenberger
NHL.com lists him as a C.

hockeydb.com has him at RW (and therefore, so does Wikipedia).

This article suggests he was primarily a center.

And LOH has him listed at both, with center first.

From this, I would be inclined to put him at center; although he did seem to have some excellent years at RW.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2013, 12:10 PM
  #114
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I PM'd pappyline about Litzenberger during the ATD when I was thinking about selecting him. I'm almost positive he said that most of his time was at RW. I wish I had the message saved, but I accidentally deleted it.
Yeah, this is one place where I would definitely value pappy's opinion highly.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-10-2013, 09:34 AM
  #115
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,833
vCash: 500
FYI, HFRangers board had just started a preliminary discussion thread for the NYR Top 10 Centers of All-Time list. If any of you are interested in participating, please consider this an open invitiation.

Link to the preliminary discussion thread is here.

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-10-2013, 09:44 AM
  #116
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Why not slot them in their "primary" position, and then make an all forwards list which includes them, listed alongside all of their positions.

Such as this:

PlayerPos
MessierC/LW
AbelC/LW
ModanoC/RW
DelvecchioC/LW
TkachukLW/C
AndreychukLW/C
BureRW/LW
MogilnyRW/LW
LindenC/RW
etc.



Which is all the more argument in favor of "all forwards". If you are saying "judge what the player did as a forward" then their time at wing won't be discounted.

Some recent notable players this would affect include Henrik Zetterberg and Dany Heatley; Zetterberg *should* probably be ranked pretty close to Datsyuk on an "all forwards" list, and Heatley's career is split pretty much in half between the wings. He had some excellent years on the left and some good ones on the right too, but he drops considerably if you don't count them all as a package. Or perhaps he goes up considerably, as almost all of his LW time has been with Ottawa, on the Pizza line. Maybe he gets the Bossy treatment and as he has nothing but stellar numbers on that side, he rockets up the charts?
on the other hand, i don't think anyone is suggesting that dany heatley's LW years don't count if we're considering him as a RW, or vice-versa.

here's what i said at the beginning of the thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
and probably we wouldn't have the red kelly problem where it would be a big debate whether his time at forward does or does not contribute to his legacy as a defenseman. if a guy played 2/3 of his career at center and the rest at wing, not too much of a stretch to count those wing years to his legacy as a forward right?
to which i would add: it's expected of a forward at any of the three positions that sometimes he may have to play a different forward position due to injuries, team/personnel needs, chemistry issues, etc. sometimes malkin and crosby are going to have to play together when the stakes dictate that; it's part of the job description of a center and i'd argue that that ability to adapt to the wing when necessary should in fact be seen as part of what makes him a great center, not a gray area that makes him less of a center. so even though guys modano and sundin spent whole years on the wing early on, that body of work should contribute to their career value as centers-- ditto messier way back, and tyler seguin today.

whereas, i don't think there's any reasonable expectation that a forward is going to have to play D at some point (except maybe on the point on the PP), nor for a d-man to have to sometimes play forward.

i agree with you that zetterberg, heatley, and a few others could go either way. but even though those decisions will be hard ones and may even be bitterly contested by some, why throw out a ranking system that unequivocally works for the vast majority of forwards for the benefit of being 100% accurate on a very very very small minority of players?

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-10-2013, 10:55 AM
  #117
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
why throw out a ranking system that unequivocally works for the vast majority of forwards for the benefit of being 100% accurate on a very very very small minority of players?
Assuming you are referring to the suggestion of voting "all forwards" and then categorizing...

I'll bring up a very simple example to show you why:

Often players receive All-Star votes at multiple positions. But sometimes we'll see more than one player voted at two or more positions (in 2010, about ten or twelve wingers were voted to both sides) but the order will be different.

If we're making a list of "which player is better?" and defining them into lists by their position, either we should vote all forwards together and then "fill out" the lists, or we should take the effort to consider what years each player spent at C, LW, and RW. There are, of course, interesting situations like Zetterberg's 2008 (where he played almost no wing, but was the second-team LW while linemate Datsyuk was third in center voting).

Because if we've voting say LaFontaine v. Modano in one poll, maybe it goes Modano. But add in perhaps Bure, Selanne, Kariya, and LeClair... and perhaps it goes the other way?

And what if the player who was on top in one list ends up well below on the other? Say Fedorov finishes as the #11 center on the centers list, but on the "all-forwards" list he ends up as the 19th center?

Those are odd results at best; credibility damaging (given how close together the voting is/would be on mostly-retired players). I don't know how often it would occur, but I am certain it would happen multiple times as I have seen it occur over various similar polls on HoH in the past few years.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-11-2013, 12:07 PM
  #118
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,879
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, this is one place where I would definitely value pappy's opinion highly.
it's not a matter of opinion, but I know what you're saying.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-11-2013, 07:47 PM
  #119
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,785
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I definitely agree with this...if players are going to be eligible for multiple positions then their entire career should count for both. I would rather have these guys make 2 lists than get shortchanged.
On the top 60 Dmen project, I took guys like Kelly and Schmidt and judged what tehy did on D and laso considered the rest of their career as well to make for one "whole player". Many also did this. If we "split up a guys career" then it would need to be split up entirely wouldn't it?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-24-2013, 11:29 PM
  #120
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,785
vCash: 500
thought I would give this a bump.

wondering where we are on this, timeline, format ect...

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-24-2013, 11:35 PM
  #121
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
thought I would give this a bump.

wondering where we are on this, timeline, format ect...
Thanks for giving this a bump. Hopefully interest picks up here (perhaps from ATDers itching to do research after their teams get eliminated?)

I would like to have a vote on whether to do all forwards together or separately towards the end of the NHL playoffs.

After that, it really depends on if we can find people to administer the project. FissionFire expressed interest in administering this summer, but he seems to be MIA until then.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-24-2013, 11:41 PM
  #122
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I PM'd pappyline about Litzenberger during the ATD when I was thinking about selecting him. I'm almost positive he said that most of his time was at RW. I wish I had the message saved, but I accidentally deleted it.
pappy forwarded me the message he sent you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline
RW is his dominate position. here is what I sent Hockeytown


Regarding Litz, he was my favorite player as a kid so I followed his career closely. RW was his usual position but he did play a lot of C and some LW. He played mostly C in 56-57 and made the 2nd AS team. He also played a lot of C in the cup year of 60-61. The rest of his time in Chicago he was mostly a RW. He didn't make more AS teams at his peak because that was a very strong era for RW's and he was competing with Howe, Richard, Geoffrion and Bathgate. In his time with Detroit he centred Howe & Delvecchio. With Toronto he played all 3 forward positions. I know in the 62 playoffs he played a LW defensive role on a line with Pulford & Stewart. That should tell you that his defensive game was pretty good. He was a second team AS at LW with Montreal Royals in 1953-54.

Not known as a physical player per se but certainly could handle a physical game. Probably middle of the road in this regard.

Played point on the power play a lot in his prime from 1954 to 1959.

Seemed to lose a step and a lot of his goal scoring touch after that terrible car accident he was in in 59-60 and only had flashes after that.. However he did start off like gangbusters with Detroit in 61-62 but for some reason fell out of favor with Jack Adams & was let go. He was outscoring both Howe & delvecchio in the early going.

let me know if you have any more questions.

pappyline.
That's good enough for me to call Litz a RW for the purposes of this project

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2013, 06:04 PM
  #123
Cadienhomme
Rookie User
 
Cadienhomme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 22
vCash: 500
the best players at that postion i go with

c beliveau

rw richard

lw hull

d orr and harvey

goalie plante

Cadienhomme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-02-2013, 12:31 AM
  #124
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,714
vCash: 500
Any ideas on how to move forward after the death of this thread? Do we just do all forwards together?

Also, if you would like to help admining the project, send me a PM. I will not be one of the main admins of the next project.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-02-2013, 07:45 AM
  #125
Crease
Registered User
 
Crease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,833
vCash: 500
I like the idea of separating centers from wingers, because generally speaking their on-ice responsibilities are different. If you combine LW and RW into one project (which I think would reduce headaches), it would make sense to have the winger project be larger than the center project.

Crease is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:40 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.