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09-13-2006, 07:15 AM
  #26
mcphee
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
Good point. If they are going by era, Butch should go first. If a guy like Savard gets his number in the rafters, Bouchard should too. What about Tom Johnson? Jacques Laperriere? Guy Lapointe?

I don't see why Serge should have his number retired, sorry.

And I'm not a big Dryden fan either. I saw him play, I'm not impressed enough to say he should have his number retired. If he played for the Penguins, nobody would even know his name today.

Roy is a bit of a stretch for me too, but he does have those performances in 86 and 93. Any other goalie and we don't win. But his regular season numbers are inflated by playing on defensive teams and then showing up in Colorado at the right time. He didn't show the same level of play in the regular season with a few exceptions.

But I blame management for what happened in 1996. After a series of ridiculous trades, they then started messing with Roy. Roy was the star of the team and they hire a coach (Tremblay) who made a living blasting Roy on the radio. No question Roy has got to go up in the rafters.

What makes it even more insulting to Robinson is that Serge Savard shafted him out of his retirement bonus when Serge was GM. This is the crux of the argument and of Robinson's estrangement from the organization. I think he now wants to be paid to have his number retired because he believes (rightly so if you know the details) that the team owes him money.
I disagree with you on Savard. Calling him a stay at home d man is really just a comparison to the guys he played with. He was the 3rd offensive d man on that team. He was better than most teams had at the time. He was so sound positionnally, and strong in his own end that his partner had probably the most freedom of any d man in the league. During the lockout, watching a lot of classic games, re-affirmed just how good Savard was. He was always a name on that team, but I think his play is vastly underrated. Robinson , no matter his personal feelings, would admit that in a second. Playing with somebody else would've changed his career.

Dryden ? He won, he won once with a team that wasn't favored once and 5 times with a team that was. I don't believe he can be diminished or dismissed because the team in front of him was so great. IMO, he ranks with Plante,Roy and the others. I think there is always a level of criticism for him, because he was never 'one of the boys'. He went his own way, and thought up stuff that players seldom do, and had other interests. He was never part of the team in the way a Lapointe was and I think the fans may have held him apart too, maybe not,but I've always suspected that.

Regarding #19's leaving the team . Robinson was being represented by his buddy and business partner Donny Cape. I'm sure you read the same acct. I did, the add on chapter of his book. The problem was contract length. Savard wanted to limit it to 1 or 2 years, then he'd be paid for a year after retirement as they did for long term players. Cape said that he wanted to play 3 years plus the bonus, as he had no intention of retiring. Savard went public and accused Robinson of negotiating a retirement bonus that was in effect a reward, not a right.

LA made the offer and Robinson kept playing, and came out ahead financially. He was hurt and insulted by Savard painting him that way in the papers. To my knowledge, Savard has never adressed this again, though Cape was in the room with Savard, not Robinson, and there are always 2 versions to a story.

I don't think he has ever made a demand to appear at a ceremony, that would be contrary to everything I've ever seen and read of the guy. The last commnet I heard was on the radio last summer, when he was saying that so much time has passed that it would mean less now. He would've loved for it to happen sooner while his Dada was alive as it's family who often get the most out of these things.
I believe one of his daughters wrote a few letters wondering why he was ignored, and I think that got the back up of theteam's promotion people, then the team finally decided how they would go about all the jersey ceremonies.

I could be off on the # of years above, but it was a case of #19 wanting to play one more year than #18 wanted him to.

I'd hope that after this ammount of time, the 2 guys, neither working for the CH could get past this. It's not like either didn't go on to all kinds of successs.

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09-13-2006, 08:19 AM
  #27
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I'm with the Butch Bouchard Boosters.

The guy Maurice Richard referred to as "my captain" ought to be able to be in the house when the number goes up. An ultimate team guy, he was one of the first players to dare to use French when speaking with teammates who shared his first language.

Can't imagine any rookie of today cycling from Montreal to Ste Hyacinthe to attend training camp. Ultimate team guy whose contributions can't be measured by scoring stats. A steadying presence in a volatile dressing room for many years. Quiet and soft-spoken but with a great sense of humour. And yes, although it's no longer part of the job description for sports stars, he was as good a role model as anyone else of his era.

Spend a lot of time chatting with the guys who earned thousands of dollars a year, laying the foundation for the millionaires of today and find them a lot more fun to talk to and a lot more accessible and open than the players of today. When speaking to guys from the 40s and 40s, Bouchard's name keeps coming up in positive terms from both teammate and opponents.

Butch never walked out on a valid contract when the team refused to renegotiate and he certainly never walked out on his team in mid-game.

And then there's J-C, who ought to be piggy-backed even though the HHoF, in their wisdom, has seen fit to neglect him as well.

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09-13-2006, 08:25 AM
  #28
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I never saw Bouchard play, I'm much younger than you. [Sorry, I just like to say that, I seldom get the chance here]

My Dad always speaks fondly of him. He tells the story [ more than once] of Red Storey making a bad call and the Forum crowd going nuts. Bouchard, as captain skated over pointing his finger into Storey's chest and gave him what appeared to be a long stream of verbal abuse. Afterwards he admitted to playing to the crowd, and in fact he was just inviting Red for a meal at his steakhouse.

Whenever he makes an appearance I'm always struck by how he carries himself. He must be in his late 80's and he still seems to be a presence. Some guys just have that I guess.

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09-13-2006, 08:27 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
I don't think they do.

Dryden had a great run in the 1971 playoffs and was excellent in 1973, but he was overrated. The team in front of him did most of the work. Bernie Parent was better than him and Rogie Vachon probably was as well. Tony Espo and Dryden were about the same. I think we should have a higher standard.
Am I reading your post right, he was overrated after 73? Care to explain the 4 straight Vezina's he picked up from 76 to 79? The Canadiens were arguably the best team EVER during that stretch, but Dryden was a big part of that, he wasn't simply a passenger as you seem to be suggesting.

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09-13-2006, 08:39 AM
  #30
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This whole era they played in being the order the #'s get retired is stupid. Robinson should be next. Period. It's an insult that this unjustice has gone on this long, why carry it on any longer.

There is a reason why no hab has wore 19 since Robnison's departure, but players have wore 18, 29 and so on. The decision to retires Robinson's number was made it most peoples minds even before the Big Bird retired, so why does managment want to drag this out.

Retire #19 this year!!!!!!!

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09-13-2006, 08:43 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Am I reading your post right, he was overrated after 73? Care to explain the 4 straight Vezina's he picked up from 76 to 79? The Canadiens were arguably the best team EVER during that stretch, but Dryden was a big part of that, he wasn't simply a passenger as you seem to be suggesting.
BY that reasoning You'd have to include the Gilles Meloche's of the league. There was always the myth,imo, of the goalie who would've done just as well. Everyone thought Bunny Larocque was his equal if only he had the chance, we saw what happened when they brought Denis Heron in. I think Dryden's leaving had to be considered a part of the dynasty ending, just as much as Bowman/Polock/Lemaire.

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09-13-2006, 08:46 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
And I'm not a big Dryden fan either. I saw him play, I'm not impressed enough to say he should have his number retired. If he played for the Penguins, nobody would even know his name today.
In 1976-77 Dryden's habs lost a total of 8 games all season long {a record never matched since}. His team since 73 won the cup 4 years in a row, a feat matched only once before by Jacques Plante's Canadiens. He won FIVE Vezina trophy's during that period and was named to the first all-star team five times.

Well yeah, that certainly sounds like he was over-rated

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09-13-2006, 08:49 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
This whole era they played in being the order the #'s get retired is stupid. Robinson should be next. Period. It's an insult that this unjustice has gone on this long, why carry it on any longer.

There is a reason why no hab has wore 19 since Robnison's departure, but players have wore 18, 29 and so on. The decision to retires Robinson's number was made it most peoples minds even before the Big Bird retired, so why does managment want to drag this out.

Retire #19 this year!!!!!!!
There's always been a rivalry between Marvelville and Montreal, that's the real issue.

I think Robinson has said a few things that may not sit well with the pr staff, as uptight as they are. he's never sought out the media, but when he gets asked stuff at charity golf tournaments, he answers candidly, even if that involves being critical of the org. Never in an ignorant headline grabbing way, but I think they decided to do it this way out of a misguided notion not to be pushed around.

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09-13-2006, 08:54 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz View Post
This whole era they played in being the order the #'s get retired is stupid. Robinson should be next. Period. It's an insult that this unjustice has gone on this long, why carry it on any longer.

There is a reason why no hab has wore 19 since Robnison's departure, but players have wore 18, 29 and so on. The decision to retires Robinson's number was made it most peoples minds even before the Big Bird retired, so why does managment want to drag this out.

Retire #19 this year!!!!!!!
I think it's pretty evident that the Canadiens will be retiring Larry's number 19 in the next season or so (at the latest it will be put off until the centennial season 2009-2010).

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09-13-2006, 08:58 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves View Post
And I'm not a big Dryden fan either. I saw him play, I'm not impressed enough to say he should have his number retired. If he played for the Penguins, nobody would even know his name today.
You could say that about alot of players in my opinion. In most cases a players greatness has alot to do with the enviroment in which he played. There are very few players who, again in my opinion, who are no doubt hall of famer no matter where they played.

- Would Jari Kurri be remembered as anything special had he played with average at best centres his entire career.

- Would Clarke Gilles be in the hall of fame if he hadn't played for a team that won 4 Stanley Cups.

- Would Ray Bourque be considered a no doubt top 5 dman of all time if he would of played his entire career with Hartford and Winnipeg.

- Would Mark Messier be considered as great as he was if he played for weak NHL teams his entire career.

- Would Jacques Plante and Terry Sawchuk be cosidered as good as they were if they played for weaker teams there entire career.

.....and this can go on and on.

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09-13-2006, 09:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
There's always been a rivalry between Marvelville and Montreal, that's the real issue.

I think Robinson has said a few things that may not sit well with the pr staff, as uptight as they are. he's never sought out the media, but when he gets asked stuff at charity golf tournaments, he answers candidly, even if that involves being critical of the org. Never in an ignorant headline grabbing way, but I think they decided to do it this way out of a misguided notion not to be pushed around.
I don't see that as a big deal or a reason to delay such an honour as long as they have. I mean we are talking well over 10 years since Robinson hung up the skates.

The fact that #19 hasn't been wore since his departure shows that management (...and remember there have been more than a couple management teams since Robinson has left) always knew that his number would be retired, so why at this point do you drag on the obvious.

The same can't be said about Savard or Dryden, or anybosdy else for that matter.....maybe Roy, but that is a discussion for another day.




Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
I think it's pretty evident that the Canadiens will be retiring Larry's number 19 in the next season or so (at the latest it will be put off until the centennial season 2009-2010).
Agreed. I just don't see why you drag out the thing. I mean Robinson is the only ex-hab that 99.9% of hab fans agree should have his number retired. Why not make him the first, then move on with the others.

Just makes more sense, imo.

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09-13-2006, 09:12 AM
  #37
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Darz, if they only had room for one up top, I'd say it has to be #19, but I don't think they qualify who deserves it most. He'll be next, so I'm ok, I guess. The wait has become petty and the org. had become petty, but it seems to be changing, so while he's the guy I most want to see honored, I can wait another year,knowing he's next.

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09-13-2006, 11:13 AM
  #38
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I didn't agree with adding Geoffrion, Moore and Cournoyer last year and I certainly don't agree with adding Savard and Dryden this year.

I concur with raketheleaves. The only players who are in the same class as the seven legends already there are Larry Robinson and Patrick Roy.

Admitting all these other players is just diluting an honor that should be reserved only to the greatest Habs players of all time. Having you number retired should be one big step higher than being in the HOF.

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09-13-2006, 11:25 AM
  #39
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Dryden is the best goalie I've have ever seen play.

Period.

He had the best mind, the fastest legs, the best glove, and the mental toughness to stay alert and make big saves when the team got periodically peppered in their own end.Watch Game 4 against Philly in '76, and you'll see a great goalie rise to make the key saves.His only asterisk was that in some non NHL games, he took a night off.It's not like Roy, now is it? He took half seasons off, and was mentioned as trade bait in the early 90's.

That team was great because they had the best goalie in the NHL, behind the best D corps ever, fronted by the top line in the NHL.

As for Serge, well, as I've written elsewhere in this forum, he's the finest defensive d man I've ever watched.He made it look so effortless and at easy when he got control of the puck in his own end.Besides being so smart, he could skate, stickhandle, join the rush, make great passes from both sides, and he hit like a train.You rarely ever saw Serge take a night off.

Both men are deserving to have their jersey's retired.Robinson will join them in short order.

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09-13-2006, 11:55 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
I didn't agree with adding Geoffrion, Moore and Cournoyer last year and I certainly don't agree with adding Savard and Dryden this year.

I concur with raketheleaves. The only players who are in the same class as the seven legends already there are Larry Robinson and Patrick Roy.

Admitting all these other players is just diluting an honor that should be reserved only to the greatest Habs players of all time. Having you number retired should be one big step higher than being in the HOF.
While I respect your opinion, and agree that maybe the honr can get diluted, strictly as a member of the CH, I can't say yes to Roy and no to Dryden. I understand the arguements and agree that Roy was 'the man' in his 2 wins. You can give Dryden 71 in the same way though. I just can't clearly take 1 over the other, purely as a Hab.

Savard's play was so intertwined with Robinson's that it's hard to elevate Larry over Savard. He was more than just his partner. On the other hand, how do you take him over Lapointe ?

So, I support the honor to both players, but I wonder how the decision gets made. Lapointe and Lemaire in particular from the 70's teams, could be discussed, but if I had to yea or nay, I'd say nay to both, though I'm not that sure why. For no other reason than you have to stop somewhere.

In those days, Lapointe was my favorite of the 3. Put him in our lineup today, we'd see something.

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09-13-2006, 01:12 PM
  #41
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Robinson and Roy will be done in 2009 for the actual 100th anniversary IMO. That is why they are being held off.

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09-13-2006, 04:01 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
While I respect your opinion, and agree that maybe the honr can get diluted, strictly as a member of the CH, I can't say yes to Roy and no to Dryden. I understand the arguements and agree that Roy was 'the man' in his 2 wins. You can give Dryden 71 in the same way though. I just can't clearly take 1 over the other, purely as a Hab.

Savard's play was so intertwined with Robinson's that it's hard to elevate Larry over Savard. He was more than just his partner. On the other hand, how do you take him over Lapointe ?

So, I support the honor to both players, but I wonder how the decision gets made. Lapointe and Lemaire in particular from the 70's teams, could be discussed, but if I had to yea or nay, I'd say nay to both, though I'm not that sure why. For no other reason than you have to stop somewhere.

In those days, Lapointe was my favorite of the 3. Put him in our lineup today, we'd see something.

Including the playoffs, Roy won 702 games and 359 of them were in Montreal. Roy is the winningest goalie in NHL history. On that basis and considering his 3 Connie Smythe trophys (2 in Montreal) his 11 consecutive wins in OT during the playoffs (also in Montreal), I feel his number should be retired both in Colorado and in Montreal.

Dryden was also obviously a great goalie like Vezina, Hainsworth and Durnan but how many players should we honor. Perhaps Butch Bouchard, Toe Blake, Elmer Lach, Jacques Lemaire, Steve Shutt, and Guy Lapointe should also have their numbers retired. As you said, we have to stop somewhere.

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09-13-2006, 04:08 PM
  #43
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Congrats to Savard & Dryden

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09-13-2006, 04:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
Including the playoffs, Roy won 702 games and 359 of them were in Montreal. Roy is the winningest goalie in NHL history. On that basis and considering his 3 Connie Smythe trophys (2 in Montreal) his 11 consecutive wins in OT during the playoffs (also in Montreal), I feel his number should be retired both in Colorado and in Montreal.

Dryden was also obviously a great goalie like Vezina, Hainsworth and Durnan but how many players should we honor. Perhaps Butch Bouchard, Toe Blake, Elmer Lach, Jacques Lemaire, Steve Shutt, and Guy Lapointe should also have their numbers retired. As you said, we have to stop somewhere.
Granted, regarding Roy, but that sort of punishes Dryden for having a better team in front of him.

I think in terms of accolades, both have Conn Smythe's, you can make a case, but we agree that a line has to be somewhere, and if Moore and Cournoyer are in, so should these guys. I waffle on this one, but in the end, I'll enjoy the ceremony, so what the hell.

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