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Old
09-13-2006, 09:45 AM
  #1
BLACKBURN
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Grit?

Do we actually have some this year?

+Shanahan
+Ward
+Hall

Hollweg
Kasparitis
Ortemeyer
Orr

I posted several times leading up to last seasons play-offs that we did not have a gritty team that could grind out a play-off series. This year we have a couple of big forwards in Hall and Shanny and a solid, tough defenceman in Ward. Not only will these guys add grit but also a north american presence and leadership. I would still like a little more sandpaper but at least we have upgrade on last season. What do you guys think ofthe teams make up? Gritty enough, fast enough, young enough?

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09-13-2006, 10:16 AM
  #2
Fletch
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Compared to last season...

there is more grit. That should be a plus this year as the grit seems to have been added without losing anything.

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09-13-2006, 10:45 AM
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I think the speed of this team will be very deceptive. Not crazy fast but enough to take notice to. Cullen will bring a pace to the game that fans will love. Ward can fly now that his knee is ok. Straks is always a hustler. Pruchas got some zip. Even Betts shows a flash from time to time.

Rucchin was a stone out there and having Cullen go in for him is gonna be a huge change.

When youve got guys flying around it sets up well for the lurkers like Jagr, Shanahan and Nylander...

As far as grit goes, yes theyve added a bit more sandpaper to their game. But they have a unique type of tenaciousness (Prucha, Straka, Hollweg, Orts, Ward, Betts.... Hall remains to be seen) and guys like Jagr, Shanny and even Nylander intimidate in their own way by drawing attention and penalties which make up in some ways for grit.

What they can use is a Tikkanen/Barnaby like player who gets under the oppositions skin but can play. I am hoping that Hall (especially) or Ward can grow into that, or maybe even a Dubinsky or Dawes. They dont care how much punishment they take they just play and piss the other team off and that REALLY works for a team.

The addition of Ward will def help i love the north american flavor they put into this team. Kaspar will crunch, and hopefully Roszival or Rachunek will suprisingly grow a pair in response to that. Even Hossa is a big dude if he gets his act together.

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09-13-2006, 11:10 AM
  #4
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
I think the speed of this team will be very deceptive. Not crazy fast but enough to take notice to. Cullen will bring a pace to the game that fans will love. Ward can fly now that his knee is ok. Straks is always a hustler. Pruchas got some zip. Even Betts shows a flash from time to time.

Rucchin was a stone out there and having Cullen go in for him is gonna be a huge change.

When youve got guys flying around it sets up well for the lurkers like Jagr, Shanahan and Nylander...

As far as grit goes, yes theyve added a bit more sandpaper to their game. But they have a unique type of tenaciousness (Prucha, Straka, Hollweg, Orts, Ward, Betts.... Hall remains to be seen) and guys like Jagr, Shanny and even Nylander intimidate in their own way by drawing attention and penalties which make up in some ways for grit.

What they can use is a Tikkanen/Barnaby like player who gets under the oppositions skin but can play. I am hoping that Hall (especially) or Ward can grow into that, or maybe even a Dubinsky or Dawes. They dont care how much punishment they take they just play and piss the other team off and that REALLY works for a team.

The addition of Ward will def help i love the north american flavor they put into this team. Kaspar will crunch, and hopefully Roszival or Rachunek will suprisingly grow a pair in response to that. Even Hossa is a big dude if he gets his act together.
That about sums up what I was going to say. We have improved leaps and bounds over last season. Will the improvments that we made on paper transfer onto the ice, well that is yet to be seen, but I am willing to suggest that it will. Teams will have to go to great lengths to prepare for this team, for this season, and many more to come.

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09-13-2006, 11:28 AM
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As far as grit goes I don't think we have a lot. Of the players mentioned Shanny can fight pretty good but you really don't want him doing that a lot. Ward improves physical play of the D. Hollweg is a bodychecker but not much of a fighter. Orr can fight but can't skate. Ortmeyer might not be around. Kaspar is an agitator who hits hard. Hall I don't know--maybe he'll be a big grind it out forward for us but we'll have to wait and see. Overall on paper it does look like the makings of a better team and even a little tougher but it certainly doesn't look to me to be all that tough.

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09-13-2006, 12:14 PM
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The underlying problem here is in people's definition of "grit". For whatever reason, certain folks around here seem to lump in grit with physical play. The two are mutually exclusive. You can be gritty and not physical. Last year's squad was a gritty one. They were not physical and did not wear down the opposing team. This year's model appears to be built to be a more NA-type of team and should be more physical, while remaining gritty

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09-13-2006, 12:16 PM
  #7
HockeyBasedNYC
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Hall

I think how the teams toughness/grit/presence falls this season relies alot on what Hall brings.

He'll most likely be around the middle of the lineup subject to argument, but if he is the force we all hope he is it might make this team a little tougher to play... lets face it hes got size and can stand in front (another thing the team lacked last season).

IM not talking about dropping the gloves every other shift, because i think he can be much more valuable than that. We need Shanny to show him how its done the right way with skating, toughness in the corners, positioning and that Shanny "State of Mind"- and i think he will try to convey that.

The body work is key from Hall if hes not gonna top his career year last season. If he doesnt score the Rangers need his body to clear some space and antagonize.

From what ive seen and heard, im not quite sure if he initiates alot, but id like to see that controlled agression from him especially where he will fall in the lineup and im sure the coaching staff wants to see that too. If he palys that role well any extra offensive output will be a true bonus


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09-13-2006, 01:27 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
there is more grit. That should be a plus this year as the grit seems to have been added without losing anything.
Actually, and not to split hairs, but we added grit while losing some of that softness. Take away Poti, Moore and Sykora and you immediately get tougher. Add in the new guys and it is more so.

I like TB's assessment here. We had the grit, guys weren't afraid to get the job done, pull up their sleeves and work hard. Now we have some people that we make us physically tough to play. That adds up in a series. The thing I like best about the new guys is that it adds another dimension to our offense. We still have the east-west style, the finesse stuff, but now we have some North-South, drive to the net guys. Should be interesting to see how teams have to adjust to our diversity.

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09-13-2006, 03:30 PM
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I agree Mugerya...

I meant not losing anything in areas such as scoring, playmaking, faceoffs, etc.

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09-13-2006, 03:41 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Kaspar will crunch, and hopefully Roszival or Rachunek will suprisingly grow a pair in response to that.
Haha I couldn't stop laughing after I read that, yeah hopefully they will grow a pair. I was recently watching an ovechkin highlight reel and who does he lay out? None other then our big tough Roszival. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

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09-13-2006, 06:34 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by kasparaitis666 View Post
Haha I couldn't stop laughing after I read that, yeah hopefully they will grow a pair. I was recently watching an ovechkin highlight reel and who does he lay out? None other then our big tough Roszival. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
Should be, but, well,its not reality

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09-13-2006, 06:43 PM
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At 37, Shanahan can still kick the crap out of all comers. Okay, he might think twice about Georges LaRaque. If pissed off enough, Shanny could tear anyone apart.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/279

Shanny...Always entertaining and usually the winner.

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09-13-2006, 08:28 PM
  #13
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Shanahan isn't the wild man he once was, but he can still go. No bones about it.

He'll get his 2-4 fights in this season and players will still give him the room.

I do think the team is more physical, and that certainly has made them better.

Ideally I'd like to see a nasty stay at home guy on the defense, but we'll see who becomes available.

The real key, and probably an underrated one, will be the emergence of the young guys with physical tools.

If Hollweg can pop in 10 goals and 25 points while bringing his energy, that will be a great addition.

If Hall can consistently (or more consitently) but all of his ability together it's not out of this world to think he could net his 20-25 goals, 40-50 points while providing more consistent phyiscal play and the ability to both work the PP and PK.

I really do believe that if Hall can take the next step in his development, he could be a BIG key to really helping the team.

Shanhan's impact, even at 37 cannot be underestimated. Even if he's only a 30 goal scorer and 65 point player, his influence could be enormous.

But if you can develop and get 30 goals and 70 points out of Hall/Hollweg it'll just add a great dimension to the team. But they key word is "if".

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09-13-2006, 09:25 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post

If Hall can consistently (or more consitently) but all of his ability together it's not out of this world to think he could net his 20-25 goals, 40-50 points while providing more consistent phyiscal play and the ability to both work the PP and PK.

I really do believe that if Hall can take the next step in his development, he could be a BIG key to really helping the team.
I'm of the same opinion about Hall, I was very excited with that trade, and I think there's a lot of potential for him to take some further steps forward in his development while with the Rangers.

I hope that gets realized.

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09-14-2006, 08:32 AM
  #15
HockeyBasedNYC
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Of course i'd like to see Hall take the next step offensively also, but i'm much more concerned with his physical tools and his presence out there than his scoring. He's got some size (6'3 - 208) i'd rather see him muck, grind, hit and go to the net and gain attention - that alone will help the team.

There are scorers on this team and making room for them is more important in my mind. If he surpases his total of last year it will be an added bonus, especially even strength. If he combines the two aspects, great... but when you look up and down this lineup, the Rangers need a guy like him to fill a physical TYPE role rather than a offensive one.

If this team makes the playoffs they will need his body for sure and grooming him the correct way is key. If hes skating around hanging for goals all year and thinking about his stick too much its gonna put a damper on the lineup.

Now don't get me wrong here. He's not HUGE and going to trample opposition with ease. If you look at the roster you have similar size players up front - Ward 6'2 - 204 - Betts 6'3 - 207 - Hossa 6'3 -220 -

So i'm picturing a Graves type of role. Nasty, relentless garbage picker, can tustle and protects the others around him with solid body work and a little bit of a nasty streak that fires up his mates. If he happens to net 20-25 then fantastic, but he would be much more valuable to the team if he was more focused on other things.

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09-14-2006, 11:29 AM
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from what I've heard, Dubinsky can be a real son-of-a-***** to play against, which can only work in our favor once he gets up here.

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09-14-2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I do think the team is more physical, and that certainly has made them better.

Ideally I'd like to see a nasty stay at home guy on the defense, but we'll see who becomes available.

The real key, and probably an underrated one, will be the emergence of the young guys with physical tools.

If Hollweg can pop in 10 goals and 25 points while bringing his energy, that will be a great addition.

If Hall can consistently (or more consitently) but all of his ability together it's not out of this world to think he could net his 20-25 goals, 40-50 points while providing more consistent phyiscal play and the ability to both work the PP and PK.

Shanhan's impact, even at 37 cannot be underestimated. Even if he's only a 30 goal scorer and 65 point player, his influence could be enormous.

".
Edge, we've always been in peretty much agreement about the upside of Hollweg andf Hall...And having Shanny around can only help Hall (and Jessiman) in his growth..Also agree about the need for a mean stay at home D-man..Kinda why I wanted WItt or McKee over Ward, but I also think Ward will improve the D and the teams's "grit"..Just as Shanny and Hall will do.

Regarding physicality, I still think we will miss Orts more then some people think..He hit everything he could with no hesitation...Guys like Sahnny (now) and Hall pick their spots, we need a player to help Hollweg on a consistent basis.

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09-14-2006, 12:57 PM
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So by grit do we mean toughness? So let's put it this way--don't expect a lot of fights and don't expect that this group will outhit the other team every night--maybe not even most nights. Can they take a battering and still be resilient?--if last year is an indication--yes. Are they tougher or more North American than last year?--again Yes. Are we a tough team though as far as physical play? Not really. Do we have to have the toughest team to win? No--it's just nice sometimes.

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09-14-2006, 01:20 PM
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So by grit do we mean toughness? So let's put it this way--don't expect a lot of fights and don't expect that this group will outhit the other team every night--maybe not even most nights. Can they take a battering and still be resilient?--if last year is an indication--yes. Are they tougher or more North American than last year?--again Yes. Are we a tough team though as far as physical play? Not really. Do we have to have the toughest team to win? No--it's just nice sometimes.
I think that it boils down this:
1. On most nights, this team will have their hardhats on and work hard.
2. They are not afraid to get their noses dirty and dig in the corners.
3. They are more NA-oriented, but will not be the aggresors on most nights.
4. The hitting from the forwards groups will be improved from last year. They should be able to wear down the opposing defensemen much more than last year.
5. While they will not lead the league in fighting (or more accurately, they will drop the gloves amongst the least in the league), they will not back down and will have a few more incidents of gloves being dropped.

6. Here is the biggest problem. Despite the addittion of Ward, as a whole, the defensemen will not be the type to clear the crease of loose pucks and loose bodies. Especially given that once again, Malik & Rozsival will be woefully miscast as top-pairing defensemen. As such, they will have the most ice time. On the other pairs, Kasper & Ward can do the work of clearing the crease, but as Malik & Roszival will be on the ice the most, Henke will be on his own for most of the night.

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09-14-2006, 01:34 PM
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I think that it boils down this:
1. On most nights, this team will have their hardhats on and work hard.
2. They are not afraid to get their noses dirty and dig in the corners.
3. They are more NA-oriented, but will not be the aggresors on most nights.
4. The hitting from the forwards groups will be improved from last year. They should be able to wear down the opposing defensemen much more than last year.
5. While they will not lead the league in fighting (or more accurately, they will drop the gloves amongst the least in the league), they will not back down and will have a few more incidents of gloves being dropped.

6. Here is the biggest problem. Despite the addittion of Ward, as a whole, the defensemen will not be the type to clear the crease of loose pucks and loose bodies. Especially given that once again, Malik & Rozsival will be woefully miscast as top-pairing defensemen. As such, they will have the most ice time. On the other pairs, Kasper & Ward can do the work of clearing the crease, but as Malik & Roszival will be on the ice the most, Henke will be on his own for most of the night.
agreed this is why i wanted mckee as well in addition to ward. McKee would be an upgrade over Rozsival

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09-14-2006, 01:37 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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So by grit do we mean toughness? So let's put it this way--don't expect a lot of fights and don't expect that this group will outhit the other team every night--maybe not even most nights. Can they take a battering and still be resilient?--if last year is an indication--yes. Are they tougher or more North American than last year?--again Yes. Are we a tough team though as far as physical play? Not really. Do we have to have the toughest team to win? No--it's just nice sometimes.
Fights are a non-factor to me...Lovbe watching them, but they mean nothing these days...And yes, we are tougher then we were last season, but not in leaps and bounds....

As late last season and the POs showed, the game turned more physical and there was alot more hitting and grinding..And I know the Olymicc hangover hurt, but it was no coincedence that the Rangers were one of the worst teams in the league intthe last few weeks and in their meek PO outing..Guys like Shanny, Hall, Ward and Cullen should really help remedy this...Personally, I think we just need a little more (one player who hits---alot) with Orts being out.....

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09-14-2006, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Fights are a non-factor to me...Lovbe watching them, but they mean nothing these days...And yes, we are tougher then we were last season, but not in leaps and bounds....

As late last season and the POs showed, the game turned more physical and there was alot more hitting and grinding..And I know the Olymicc hangover hurt, but it was no coincedence that the Rangers were one of the worst teams in the league intthe last few weeks and in their meek PO outing..Guys like Shanny, Hall, Ward and Cullen should really help remedy this...Personally, I think we just need a little more (one player who hits---alot) with Orts being out.....
this is why we should get matt cooke, if the canucks match kesler 1.9. Cooke would help and he can PK well too.

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09-14-2006, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I think that it boils down this:
1. On most nights, this team will have their hardhats on and work hard.
2. They are not afraid to get their noses dirty and dig in the corners.
3. They are more NA-oriented, but will not be the aggresors on most nights.
4. The hitting from the forwards groups will be improved from last year. They should be able to wear down the opposing defensemen much more than last year.
5. While they will not lead the league in fighting (or more accurately, they will drop the gloves amongst the least in the league), they will not back down and will have a few more incidents of gloves being dropped.

6. Here is the biggest problem. Despite the addittion of Ward, as a whole, the defensemen will not be the type to clear the crease of loose pucks and loose bodies. Especially given that once again, Malik & Rozsival will be woefully miscast as top-pairing defensemen. As such, they will have the most ice time. On the other pairs, Kasper & Ward can do the work of clearing the crease, but as Malik & Roszival will be on the ice the most, Henke will be on his own for most of the night.
Well I can't argue with hardly any of that. I think is is close enough in spirit anyway to the comment it referenced. As far as the Malik-Roszival tandem I don't worry about Marek that much. He might not hit enough but he does play pretty well positionally in front of the net--much better anyway than his partner--and the other thing with Marek is hitting him may be easy but is usually not all that effective because of his great size.

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09-14-2006, 03:39 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
Fights are a non-factor to me...Lovbe watching them, but they mean nothing these days...And yes, we are tougher then we were last season, but not in leaps and bounds....

As late last season and the POs showed, the game turned more physical and there was alot more hitting and grinding..And I know the Olymicc hangover hurt, but it was no coincedence that the Rangers were one of the worst teams in the league intthe last few weeks and in their meek PO outing..Guys like Shanny, Hall, Ward and Cullen should really help remedy this...Personally, I think we just need a little more (one player who hits---alot) with Orts being out.....
Well Larry I'm in the waiting for Brodie Dupont mode. Maybe my expectations of him are too high but I see a Darren McCarty type of player in the making there. I don't know if fights are a non-factor--to me it's more fighters who can't play that are. Fortunately around the league at the moment there is not all that many guys who fight well who can play well but in the future I think we'll see teams focusing on just exactly that kind of player.

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09-14-2006, 03:53 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I think that it boils down this:
1. On most nights, this team will have their hardhats on and work hard.
2. They are not afraid to get their noses dirty and dig in the corners.
3. They are more NA-oriented, but will not be the aggresors on most nights.
4. The hitting from the forwards groups will be improved from last year. They should be able to wear down the opposing defensemen much more than last year.
5. While they will not lead the league in fighting (or more accurately, they will drop the gloves amongst the least in the league), they will not back down and will have a few more incidents of gloves being dropped.

6. Here is the biggest problem. Despite the addittion of Ward, as a whole, the defensemen will not be the type to clear the crease of loose pucks and loose bodies. Especially given that once again, Malik & Rozsival will be woefully miscast as top-pairing defensemen. As such, they will have the most ice time. On the other pairs, Kasper & Ward can do the work of clearing the crease, but as Malik & Roszival will be on the ice the most, Henke will be on his own for most of the night.
I agree.

This team will not lead the league in fights, but it's not going to be pushed around either.

The defense I'd still like to see a little tougher. Kaspar's advancing age and wear and tear is a bit of a concern and while Ward is gritty he doesn't really intimidate people. Ideally I'd like to add one more rugged defenseman, but we'll see how plausible that is.

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