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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XXXV

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Old
04-28-2013, 07:39 PM
  #701
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I fully anticipate Sherman pulling a big trade.

You can't finish 29th and go into the following season with the exact same line-up, plus an 18 year old first round pick and expect better results, even with a new coach.

The change has to come via trade since the Avs already have 22 players signed to next season, not including Malone, Vincour, Palushaj (RFAs) and Kobasew and Bordeleau (UFAs).

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04-28-2013, 08:02 PM
  #702
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With the Sacco firing and the addition of another top 3 pick + a UFA signing or two, I think we should be close to a playoff team as is next year.


If it were me, I would put our 2014 1st on the table to bring in either a top line Winger or a top Defender from rebuilding teams or teams needing to move salary.

Giordano, Josi, Erriksson, Myers/Ehrhoff, etc.

If any of those guys became available this summer, I would definitely consider moving our 1st for any of them.

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04-28-2013, 08:25 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
With the Sacco firing and the addition of another top 3 pick + a UFA signing or two, I think we should be close to a playoff team as is next year.


If it were me, I would put our 2014 1st on the table to bring in either a top line Winger or a top Defender from rebuilding teams or teams needing to move salary.

Giordano, Josi, Erriksson, Myers/Ehrhoff, etc.

If any of those guys became available this summer, I would definitely consider moving our 1st for any of them.
WE ARE NOT MOVING OUR 1st ROUND PICK!!!
















(Oh... it's 2014, well since we are going to win the cup next year. It won't have any value. Sacco's firing ensures this.)

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04-28-2013, 08:46 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Everyone needs someone to play better. Crosby at 100 points or 150 points is the difference between his linemates.
While I agree with your first statement, the example you give isn't applicable in this case given the quality of player we're discussing.

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04-28-2013, 08:53 PM
  #705
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While I agree with your first statement, the example you give isn't applicable in this case given the quality of player we're discussing.
Ok, Shea Weber without Suter was pointless until Josi finally adapted to his role. Suter without Weber was terrible before Brodin filled in the gap.

Both needed a talented partner to help them make their talents blossom, are they both not Norris candidates as well? EJ needs his Josi or Brodin to shine, otherwise he's good but not great.

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04-28-2013, 09:31 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
WE ARE NOT MOVING OUR 1st ROUND PICK!!!


(Oh... it's 2014, well since we are going to win the cup next year. It won't have any value. Sacco's firing ensures this.)
yea haha, not a chance in hell I would move our 2013 1st. Unless Crosby, Malkin, or Stamkos was a part of the deal.


But I have an extremely hard time believeing we'll be a Bottom 10 team next year with the team we have now, PLUS a capable Coach who can run a system, PLUS Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin.


But it would be a risk, and given where were picking this year it probably has a fair amount of value, especially to the rebuilding teams like CGY and BUF and NSH. Or the teams in Cap trouble like MIN, NYR, VAN.

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04-28-2013, 09:45 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
yea haha, not a chance in hell I would move our 2013 1st. Unless Crosby, Malkin, or Stamkos was a part of the deal.


But I have an extremely hard time believeing we'll be a Bottom 10 team next year with the team we have now, PLUS a capable Coach who can run a system, PLUS Jones/Mackinnon/Drouin.


But it would be a risk, and given where were picking this year it probably has a fair amount of value, especially to the rebuilding teams like CGY and BUF and NSH. Or the teams in Cap trouble like MIN, NYR, VAN.
Everyone saw how we fleeced the Caps with that idea though. NO WAY another team falls for that.

This team needs to trade the next 5 years worth of 1st round picks so they don't have an excuse to tank anymore. Who's up for offer-sheets this season that would be close to being worth 4 first rounders?


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04-28-2013, 09:51 PM
  #708
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A team that's been in the bottom three in the league three times in the last five years can't keep trading first rounders during the summer. Avs dodged a bullet with the first they had to give Columbus for Foote (one game away from being the Duchene pick) and somehow wedged the Varly pick between 29th and 29th years.

Enough. Keep the first rounders. Once Avs have proven they are a good team, then it's something you can use as a trade chip.

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04-28-2013, 09:54 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Ok, Shea Weber without Suter was pointless until Josi finally adapted to his role. Suter without Weber was terrible before Brodin filled in the gap.

Both needed a talented partner to help them make their talents blossom, are they both not Norris candidates as well? EJ needs his Josi or Brodin to shine, otherwise he's good but not great.
You're comparing perennial All-Star defensemen to a guy who struggles with game-to-game consistency, and exaggerating the effect their young defensive partners have had on them.

Shea Weber has been prone to slow offensive starts before, and Ryan Suter's "terrible" start (4 points with a -5 rating in 7 January games, totals nearly identical to that of Johnson's entire season) was likely due to him playing on a new team, in a new system, after a locked-out off-season.

I understand the concept of supporting Erik Johnson with a quality player to enhance his performance. But I don't think it'll have the effect that many do.

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04-28-2013, 09:56 PM
  #710
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You're comparing perennial All-Star defensemen to a guy who struggles with game-to-game consistency, and exaggerating the effect their young defensive partners have had on them.

Shea Weber has been prone to slow offensive starts before, and Ryan Suter's "terrible" start (4 points with a -5 rating in 7 January games, totals nearly identical to that of Johnson's entire season) was likely due to him playing on a new team, in a new system, after a locked-out off-season.
We should offer sheet Pietrangelo for like 7M per for 7 years, then we get a good player and we don't have anymore excuses to tank.

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04-28-2013, 10:00 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Ok, Shea Weber without Suter was pointless until Josi finally adapted to his role. Suter without Weber was terrible before Brodin filled in the gap.
.
An amazing leap of conjecture there. The guys who've done it for years needed first(ish) timers to unleash their suddenly forgotten potential?

Or, they simply started slowly, and picked themselves up? As many quality players do?

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04-28-2013, 10:03 PM
  #712
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An amazing leap of conjecture there. The guys who've done it for years needed first(ish) timers to unleash their suddenly forgotten potential?

Or, they simply started slowly, and picked themselves up? As many quality players do?
Honestly I think there is merit to both sides of the argument. We as Avs fans need to stop hoping EJ starts producing 40-50 points a season though. With a good offensive partner that can think the game well hes still very valuable.

EJ is a top pairing defender, Kirk is not and nor will he ever be.

I still think Yandle would be a fairly good partner for EJ, but the plus needed to be added to Stastny would hurt. Other than Yandle, I really don't see very many options out there though. It's hard to trade for high end prospects as well.

We really do need Jones, and badly... I don't see where else we're going to get another offensively gifted top pairing defender (Even a potential one).


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Old
04-28-2013, 10:09 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
EJ is a top pairing defender
A lot of people in here keep repeating that verbatim, but what happens on the ice often shows something quite different.

When he consistently plays that way, I'll agree with that statement 100%. Until then, I won't.

And aside from - at the VERY most - 10-12 or so games this season, he didn't show it. Wish he did. Sorry, but he simply didn't.

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04-28-2013, 10:11 PM
  #714
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An amazing leap of conjecture there. The guys who've done it for years needed first(ish) timers to unleash their suddenly forgotten potential?

Or, they simply started slowly, and picked themselves up? As many quality players do?
I could post anything here and there would be an argument against it. The sky is blue, no it is really all the colors lf the visible spectrum, we just don't observe them.

My argument is a simple one that I provided examples in favor of the best I could. I don't expect EJ to be as good as them, but I do expect a similar impact to occur by playing with a reliable and skilled partner. Just like people here expect from Landeskog playing with O'Reilly or Duchene with PAP.


Quote:
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You're comparing perennial All-Star defensemen to a guy who struggles with game-to-game consistency, and exaggerating the effect their young defensive partners have had on them.

Shea Weber has been prone to slow offensive starts before, and Ryan Suter's "terrible" start (4 points with a -5 rating in 7 January games, totals nearly identical to that of Johnson's entire season) was likely due to him playing on a new team, in a new system, after a locked-out off-season.

I understand the concept of supporting Erik Johnson with a quality player to enhance his performance. But I don't think it'll have the effect that many do.
He was hated far longer than seven games in Minnesota. There's plenty of reasons for each of their struggles, but the pairing with young talented blue liners is a significant reason for their turnarounds. It is not a leap to expect a strong turnaround from EJ if he gets to play with Barrie, Elliott or Seth all season.

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04-28-2013, 10:16 PM
  #715
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I could post anything here and there would be an argument against it. The sky is blue, no it is really all the colors lf the visible spectrum, we just don't observe them.
Uh...OK.

But the (rather massive) flaw I find in your argument, is that you place playing success at the feet of (relatively) first time players, rather than years-long proven players, including a multiple-time Norris finalist. The shelling of Shattenkirk at the feet of Corsi stats was worthy of all-star homerism, but now we're taking on Shea Weber? This is even worse than the "EJ is playing well now because Hunwick is" stuff that was posted last month. Much worse.

I realize every one if us has our homer moments to try and make our players look as good as possible, particularly in dire times. And sometimes the homer moments get a bit out of hand. But this? Come on, guys. Seriously.

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04-28-2013, 10:18 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
EJ is a top pairing defender, Kirk is not and nor will he ever be.
And yet Shattenkirk is miraculously the better of the two players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
He was hated far longer than seven games in Minnesota. There's plenty of reasons for each of their struggles, but the pairing with young talented blue liners is a significant reason for their turnarounds. It is not a leap to expect a strong turnaround from EJ if he gets to play with Barrie, Elliott or Seth all season.
The consensus amongst fans is often outweighed by facts, especially in hindsight. With the crazy minutes Ryan Suter logs, there is no way his 12 game, 8 assist, +1 performance in February was anything but outstanding.

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04-28-2013, 10:18 PM
  #717
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A lot of people in here keep repeating that verbatim, but what happens on the ice often shows something quite different.

When he consistently plays that way, I'll agree with that statement. Until then, nope.

And aside from - at the VERY most - 10 or so games this season, he didn't show it. Wish he did. Sorry, but he simply didn't.
Well, there was the concussion, and then there was the fact that Sacco never really gave him consistent minutes in the 23-26 minute range. Honestly I don't feel like he played badly on the defensive side, obviously the offense wasn't there. But he did give us top pairing level defense, all while having Zannon, Hunwick, and O'Brien next to him.

EJ was -3 on a team that was -36, Weber was -2 and put up 28 points. Weber had 12 power play points which means he had 16 points total to EJ's 4 even strength points.

Which means Weber was on the ice for quite a few more even strength goals against.

Don't take this as me saying EJ is as good as Weber, but at least give EJ credit for how good he is on the defensive side of the puck. He absolutely is a top pairing defender.

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04-28-2013, 10:19 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
A lot of people in here keep repeating that verbatim, but what happens on the ice often shows something quite different.

When he consistently plays that way, I'll agree with that statement 100%. Until then, I won't.

And aside from - at the VERY most - 10-12 or so games this season, he didn't show it. Wish he did. Sorry, but he simply didn't.
I believe EJ CAN be a top pairing defender and showed it at times this season but I also agree with ABasin that he only showed it about 10-12 games this season.

I have a theory on that that AB doesn't buy anyways, so there's no point in getting into it but I think we'll all have our answer next season.

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04-28-2013, 10:22 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Well, there was the concussion, and then there was the fact that Sacco never really gave him consistent minutes in the 23-26 minute range. Honestly I don't feel like he played badly on the defensive side, obviously the offense wasn't there. But he did give us top pairing level defense, all while having Zannon, Hunwick, and O'Brien next to him.

EJ was -3 on a team that was -36, Weber was -2 and put up 28 points. Weber had 12 power play points which means he had 16 points total to EJ's 4 even strength points.

Which means Weber was on the ice for quite a few more even strength goals against.

Don't take this as me say EJ is as good as Weber, but at least give EJ credit for how good he is on the defensive side of the puck. He absolutely is a top pairing defender.
Again, you "absolutely" repeat that again and again, and I keep pointing to what happened on the ice this season, which wasn't 48 games (or even 24 games) of 1st pairing play.

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04-28-2013, 10:23 PM
  #720
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Again, you "absolutely" repeat that again and again, and I keep pointing to what happened on the ice this season, which wasn't 48 games (or even 24 games) of 1st pairing play.
And I disagree with that statement.

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04-28-2013, 10:24 PM
  #721
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Uh...OK.

But the (rather massive) flaw I find in your argument, is that you place the playing success at the feet of (relatively) first time players, rather than years-long proven players, including a multiple-time Norris finalist. The shelling of Shattenkirk at the feet of Corsi stats was worthy of all-star homerism, but now we're taking on Shea Weber? This is even worse than the "EJ is playing well now because Hunwick is" stuff that was posted last month. Much worse.

I realize every one if us has our homer moments to try and make our players look as good as possible, particularly in dire times. And sometimes the homer moments get a bit out of hand. But this? Come on, guys. Seriously.
Yes, I'm a homer. But the fact you find a flaw in my argument makes me seriously question your motives for responding to me. Because my argument was one thing, that EJ would play better with a competent partner. There is no flaw in that logic, it is a generally true statement that any player performs better with better linemates.

I get it, you don't believe in EJ and you either don't like him or think you're doing yourself a service by trying to distance your jaded opinion of him in some unbiased manner with how you write on here.

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and logically prove to me EJ would not do better with one of the defenders I mentioned before you get on your high horse.

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04-28-2013, 10:24 PM
  #722
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I believe EJ CAN be a top pairing defender and showed it at times this season but I also agree with ABasin that he only showed it about 10-12 games this season.
No question he CAN be. But as of this point in time, he's not.

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I have a theory on that that AB doesn't buy anyways, so there's no point in getting into it but I think we'll all have our answer next season.
Well, we certainly shall see. Because an awful lot of you placed EJ's "substandard" (for him) play at Sacco's feet. We'll have our answer for sure by midseason next year. I sure hope you guys were all correct.

So, enough of EJ, Bender. How goes the Sayonara Sacco party at the Bender residence tonight?

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04-28-2013, 10:32 PM
  #723
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lol I can't believe the lengths some of you guys go to protect EJ. The dude blew balls for a majority of this season. He got outscored by a midget with a long beard. The fact that he needed Matthew Hunwick as his partner to look even somewhat decent for a stretch of 10 games is pathetic.

I hope a new coach can bring out the best in him, but as of right now, we got absolutely destroyed in that trade. Things can definitely change though.

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04-28-2013, 10:33 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
A lot of people in here keep repeating that verbatim, but what happens on the ice often shows something quite different.

When he consistently plays that way, I'll agree with that statement 100%. Until then, I won't.

And aside from - at the VERY most - 10-12 or so games this season, he didn't show it. Wish he did. Sorry, but he simply didn't.
The evidence is there to see for anyone bothering to lift their eyes beyond the four points he scored this year.

In the 31 games he played with Avs this year, Avs outshot the opposition 31.5-30.2 per game on average. In the 17 games he didn't play Avs were outshot 25.7-33,4 on average.

He draws the toughest competition and Avs outshoot the opposition by quite a bit when he's on the ice.

This is on a team that placed 29th in the league and was outscored and outshot as a whole.

Any analysis that's free from bias suggest he indeed is a top pairing guy.

Meanwhile, the eye reports by posters here reveal their bias when they tell us how terrible he is and giving D-F in season grades and continually bemoan how we lost the trade.

This is not to say EJ doesn't deserve criticism. He has to provide more offense. He has to be better on the power play. He needs to get his shots through. But this board has completely lost it's marbles when it comes to EJ and it now seems to be a competition in being most unimpressed with him.

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04-28-2013, 10:33 PM
  #725
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Yes, I'm a homer.
I'm not.

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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
But the fact you find a flaw in my argument makes me seriously question your motives for responding to me. Because my argument was one thing, that EJ would play better with a competent partner. There is no flaw in that logic, it is a generally true statement that any player performs better with better linemates.

I get it, you don't believe in EJ and you either don't like him or think you're doing yourself a service by trying to distance your jaded opinion of him in some unbiased manner with how you write on here.
I'm not entirely sure what you just wrote there, but I'm actually a fan of EJ. Or rather, of his talent. It's absolutely obvious, IMO. He has immense skills. His play, however, was not very good this season. All of this "he plays 1st pairing defense" is nonsense. He played quite well for 10-12 games or so defensively, then was quite average after that. His offensive game was 3rd pairing quality all season.

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Perhaps you should reread what I wrote and logically prove to me EJ would not do better with one of the defenders I mentioned before you get on your high horse.
My horse is no higher or lower than yours.

Any player will perform better with other players around him - that's a given. But highlighting Weber's/Suter's slow start and then attributing their (NORMAL level play and EXPECTED level of play and PROVEN level of play) finish to their first-timer partners is simply silly. Sorry, but it is. They started slowly, but played as they were expected to play for the majority of the season. They played to their talent level for the majority of the season.

Why is it such a sin for me (or anyone) to expect the same from Colorado players?

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