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04-22-2013, 07:45 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
Both of those teams have won a cup. They're competitive every year, but...

The 3 best defensemen of the last 20 years (Prongs, Niedermayer and Lidstrom for me) combined for 13 Finals appearances over their careers. They weren't the only stars on those teams, but neither would be Jones.

We've got the star forward, and more coming up the line. We've got a shot to close the circle if we're in place to pick Jones, IMO.
If Stamkos is our star forward, he's been nothing like it this year, despite what the stats may tell you.

Again, Lidstrom was one elite defenseman on the Wings those years (maybe Murphy in 1998-99). Pronger and Niedermayer were only together on the same team with the Ducks in one Finals appearance. The only arguments working in your favour is NJ who had Stevens and Niedermayer form a dynasty there and perhaps COL who had Blake and Foote.

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04-22-2013, 08:18 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
If Stamkos is our star forward, he's been nothing like it this year, despite what the stats may tell you.

Again, Lidstrom was one elite defenseman on the Wings those years (maybe Murphy in 1998-99). Pronger and Niedermayer were only together on the same team with the Ducks in one Finals appearance. The only arguments working in your favour is NJ who had Stevens and Niedermayer form a dynasty there and perhaps COL who had Blake and Foote.
Perhaps I haven't done a good job of making my stance clear. I'm not really arguing that we need an elite top pair, I'm arguing that if Jones has the potential to be that generational defenseman (which, as much as we all like Hedman, I don't think he'll get there), that's where you have a solid foundation for your dynasty. Guys like Stamkos and Hedman would not have to carry the team through the playoffs every year, and rather could be more of high-level contributors.

It's very possibly a moot point given that Jones is FAR from a lock to become that generational defenseman. But if you as a GM think he's got a good shot, I don't think anyone in this specific draft could possibly have more value.

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04-22-2013, 08:54 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
Perhaps I haven't done a good job of making my stance clear. I'm not really arguing that we need an elite top pair, I'm arguing that if Jones has the potential to be that generational defenseman (which, as much as we all like Hedman, I don't think he'll get there), that's where you have a solid foundation for your dynasty. Guys like Stamkos and Hedman would not have to carry the team through the playoffs every year, and rather could be more of high-level contributors.

It's very possibly a moot point given that Jones is FAR from a lock to become that generational defenseman. But if you as a GM think he's got a good shot, I don't think anyone in this specific draft could possibly have more value.
Eh hes still very young and playing at a very high level. Arguments could be made that he is not a number 1 yet in his career and you will probably have good footing to make that claim, however he isn't close to what he will become. Jones looks like he could very well be a better defensemen by the end of it all, but Hedman is going to be a star in his own right. Regardless if we get Jones or not, I think Hedman will be the defensemen we drafted him to be. It will be as if a team got both Lidstrom and Pronger. Logic will dictate that Lidstrom will be the better of the two, but it's not as if Pronger couldn't hold down the fort on any given night if needed.

Edit: Didn't see you put the Generational tag down there. Generational for me, their only has been three ever to grace the term Generational in my mind. Orr, Gretzky and Mario......Very elite players after that, but not generational. So I actually agree with that Statement. Hedmen isn't a Generational nor do I think he ever will be. Elite I'd be willing to toss at him however.

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04-22-2013, 09:19 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by 2 Weekes Notice View Post
Perhaps I haven't done a good job of making my stance clear. I'm not really arguing that we need an elite top pair, I'm arguing that if Jones has the potential to be that generational defenseman (which, as much as we all like Hedman, I don't think he'll get there), that's where you have a solid foundation for your dynasty. Guys like Stamkos and Hedman would not have to carry the team through the playoffs every year, and rather could be more of high-level contributors.

It's very possibly a moot point given that Jones is FAR from a lock to become that generational defenseman. But if you as a GM think he's got a good shot, I don't think anyone in this specific draft could possibly have more value.
I see what you mean now . I was going to state in my last post, Jones makes more sense if you believe that Hedman cannot be that elite level defenseman for us. Not really sure where I stand on him being an elite defenseman like Keith, Karlsson, Letang, Subban etc., but he's an amazing defenseman who continues to improve year after year and is by far the #1 guy out of our current group (whatever that's worth ).

However, as you said, there's no guarantee any of these current top 3 picks will be generational talents or elite level players. They all certainly have very high potential, but in some cases that potential is not ever fully realized. One could actually make the argument that MacKinnon or Drouin could also be that high-level contributor, since none of us know exactly how their careers will pan out. Nonetheless, we should obviously go BPA with our pick and we'll be lucky to get any of the top 3.

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04-22-2013, 09:36 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Bolt32 View Post
Eh hes still very young and playing at a very high level. Arguments could be made that he is not a number 1 yet in his career and you will probably have good footing to make that claim, however he isn't close to what he will become. Jones looks like he could very well be a better defensemen by the end of it all, but Hedman is going to be a star in his own right. Regardless if we get Jones or not, I think Hedman will be the defensemen we drafted him to be. It will be as if a team got both Lidstrom and Pronger. Logic will dictate that Lidstrom will be the better of the two, but it's not as if Pronger couldn't hold down the fort on any given night if needed.

Edit: Didn't see you put the Generational tag down there. Generational for me, their only has been three ever to grace the term Generational in my mind. Orr, Gretzky and Mario......Very elite players after that, but not generational. So I actually agree with that Statement. Hedmen isn't a Generational nor do I think he ever will be. Elite I'd be willing to toss at him however.
Maybe "hall of fame" would have been a better tag than generational. All the same, I don't think we're too far off in what we think here, just a matter of verbiage. I also think Hedman will be a #1 defenseman, but having 2 of those is a most excellent problem to have.

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04-22-2013, 09:38 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post

However, as you said, there's no guarantee any of these current top 3 picks will be generational talents or elite level players. They all certainly have very high potential, but in some cases that potential is not ever fully realized. One could actually make the argument that MacKinnon or Drouin could also be that high-level contributor, since none of us know exactly how their careers will pan out. Nonetheless, we should obviously go BPA with our pick and we'll be lucky to get any of the top 3.
Very true. I think I'm just splitting hairs at this point because...we don't have playoffs to talk about so we might as well go in depth for the hypotheticals about this stuff. And dream, while we're at it.

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04-23-2013, 03:48 AM
  #432
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I am not 100% sure about Jones, because he is a defender, so many high picked defenders never reach their potential, but after all the difference between them and Jones is, that Jones is the consensus #1 in a draft as deep as it gets, while Johnson, Hedman and others weren't in that deep drafts.
Otherwise if I look on our organization, I see Cooper as the coach that made crystals into diamonds, overall success at developing in the last few years and 2 perfect teachers for Jones in Salo and Hedman, that allow us, to get Jones in slowly (as a #3 at the beginning).
After all I am all for Jones and if not him Droiun or Nishuchkin (if we are out of the top3)

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04-27-2013, 10:16 PM
  #433
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Step 1)Trade top pick for established D
Step 2)???
Step 3)Profit (win games)

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04-27-2013, 11:16 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by str8shooter View Post
Step 1)Trade top pick for established D
Step 2)???
Step 3)Profit (win games)
There aren't many players out there that are worth a top 3 pick in this draft, and most of them would put us in cap hell. This is good, we take the player that falls to us and have an elite prospect to work with.

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04-28-2013, 12:54 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by str8shooter View Post
Step 1)Trade top pick for established D
Step 2)???
Step 3)Profit (win games)
I don't know where to post this so I'll put it here.

Just wondering what you guys think about trading the #3 for Erik Johnson? Obviously Florida would need to be willing to trade down to #2 or be planning to take Mackinnon anyways for Colorado to consider this. We'd need to be taking Jones with our pick.

EJ hasn't turned into Weber, but hes still got upside and would probably look pretty amazing next to Hedman. Colorado is pretty much wasting EJ's contract by not being able to get him a partner, and we're not nearly as close to being able to contend for a playoff spot as Tampa is.

Drouin fills our need for a top line winger obviously.

Just throwing it out there.

(This would also be assuming Florida wins the lottery)


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04-28-2013, 09:30 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I don't know where to post this so I'll put it here.

Just wondering what you guys think about trading the #3 for Erik Johnson? Obviously Florida would need to be willing to trade down to #2 or be planning to take Mackinnon anyways for Colorado to consider this. We'd need to be taking Jones with our pick.

EJ hasn't turned into Weber, but hes still got upside and would probably look pretty amazing next to Hedman. Colorado is pretty much wasting EJ's contract by not being able to get him a partner, and we're not nearly as close to being able to contend for a playoff spot as Tampa is.

Drouin fills our need for a top line winger obviously.

Just throwing it out there.

(This would also be assuming Florida wins the lottery)
This is a very intriguing trade offer. Still, if we're in the top 3, I don't think we trade away our chance at another elite prospect.

I would make this trade if we fell out of the top 3 though. EJ might not have lived up to being the #1 pick, but his cap hit is very reasonable for a top pairing defenseman, so it's just a matter of staying healthy...

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04-28-2013, 12:11 PM
  #437
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It would need to be EJ+ IMO. Nothing huge, but EJ+2nd round pick or something.

Just because the drop off after 3 (especially given the recent Nichushkin situation) is quite big.

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04-28-2013, 09:36 PM
  #438
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There aren't many players out there that are worth a top 3 pick in this draft, and most of them would put us in cap hell. This is good, we take the player that falls to us and have an elite prospect to work with.
True but the trick is that we make the other team take back Brewer and Malone as well

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04-28-2013, 09:40 PM
  #439
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Well everyone, Day 1 down. Only about 160 more to go. How was everyone's first day of Off-Season 2013?

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04-28-2013, 09:59 PM
  #440
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Not too bad with playoffs and draft coming up. July and August though -

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04-28-2013, 10:03 PM
  #441
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Not too bad with playoffs and draft coming up. July and August though -
Well at least we have Free Agency and trades in July. August is ****. September we get NHL 14 and training camps. And then hackey starts in October!

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04-28-2013, 10:06 PM
  #442
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It would need to be EJ+ IMO. Nothing huge, but EJ+2nd round pick or something.

Just because the drop off after 3 (especially given the recent Nichushkin situation) is quite big.
I could live with that, I'd probably try to negotiate it into a 3rd round pick instead though. There is risk on both sides with a trade like this but it could make some sense.

Thanks for the response, and no flaming lol.

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04-29-2013, 12:33 AM
  #443
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How many kids from Syracuse do you guys see making the team next year? Connolly, Johnson, Panik, and Palat all seem either ready or just about ready. And from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), guys who are coming off their entry level deals (Brown and Barberio) have to clear waivers to be sent down starting with their next contract.

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04-29-2013, 01:13 AM
  #444
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How many kids from Syracuse do you guys see making the team next year? Connolly, Johnson, Panik, and Palat all seem either ready or just about ready. And from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), guys who are coming off their entry level deals (Brown and Barberio) have to clear waivers to be sent down starting with their next contract.
No they don't have, I'm not sure about the waiver rule, but I know, that's not the rule So both will be back in SYR next year, unless Barberio gets a spot.

Killorn and Gudas are already "save", the rest will be determined by SY and his offseason moves, but after all all 4 would deserve a spot.

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04-29-2013, 01:41 AM
  #445
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No they don't have, I'm not sure about the waiver rule, but I know, that's not the rule So both will be back in SYR next year, unless Barberio gets a spot.

Killorn and Gudas are already "save", the rest will be determined by SY and his offseason moves, but after all all 4 would deserve a spot.
You're right. Not sure where I heard that from. I Googled around and finally found an overly complicated chart explaining the waiver rule.

It's going to be interesting to see what Yzerman does to address team needs, and how much trust he's going to put in rookies in filling the holes.

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04-29-2013, 09:26 AM
  #446
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You're right. Not sure where I heard that from. I Googled around and finally found an overly complicated chart explaining the waiver rule.

It's going to be interesting to see what Yzerman does to address team needs, and how much trust he's going to put in rookies in filling the holes.
Using this is the easiest method I've found to calculate waiver status.

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Old
04-29-2013, 09:36 AM
  #447
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It would need to be EJ+ IMO. Nothing huge, but EJ+2nd round pick or something.

Just because the drop off after 3 (especially given the recent Nichushkin situation) is quite big.
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, but what is the recent Nichushkin situation you're referring to?

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04-29-2013, 10:46 AM
  #448
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I've been mulling this over for a while, but if we're in a position to draft Drouin and Mackinnnon/Jones are already taken, do we trade MSL? Obviously he's been the face of the franchise for the last decade, but trading him may be best for both the team and Marty. He could get one last chance to play for a contender. On the other end, we'd be trading him at his highest value and we also avoid having the redundancy of having two elite playmaking wingers who can be a liability defensively.

I love MSL, he's my favorite player of all-time. As much as I want to see him play out his career with us, I'd also like to see him win one more cup. I would however only trade him if the right price was offered, as he is more valuable to us than he is to any other team. Just something to think about.

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04-29-2013, 10:47 AM
  #449
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I've been mulling this over for a while, but if we're in a position to draft Drouin and Mackinnnon/Jones are already taken, do we trade MSL? Obviously he's been the face of the franchise for the last decade, but trading him may be best for both the team and Marty. He could get one last chance to play for a contender. On the other end, we'd be trading him at his highest value and we also avoid having the redundancy of having two elite playmaking wingers who can be a liability defensively.

I love MSL, he's my favorite player of all-time. As much as I want to see him play out his career with us, I'd also like to see him win one more cup. I would however only trade him if the right price was offered, as he is more valuable to us than he is to any other team. Just something to think about.
No, you wait until the deadline.

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04-29-2013, 11:03 AM
  #450
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Using this is the easiest method I've found to calculate waiver status.
I use capgeek all the time, but somehow never used that calculator before. Thanks!

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