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Old
04-29-2013, 03:03 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
No, his ability isn't. Stop over rating players just because they are Penguins.
This ^^^^^

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04-29-2013, 03:12 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Can Beau Bennett take a face wash?
Can a face wash take a Beau Bennett? Riddle me that.

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04-29-2013, 03:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
PS- Its nice to see Glass looking much better the last few games. Looks like he is finding his game finally.
I hope this is a joke.

Complain about Kennedy all you want, he adds a lot more to the lineup than Glass.

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04-29-2013, 10:28 AM
  #54
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While I don't disagree that BB is quite a bit better than TK....this entire thread is moot when Tanner FN Glass plays 100% of the games while either one of these guys are scratched. We are discussing meaningless decisions while the elephant in the room is completely ignored.

Tanner Glass is starting to garner more hate from me than the entire Flyers team. Until he loses his roster spot, we shouldn't be discussing any other roster decisions.

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04-29-2013, 10:47 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
While I don't disagree that BB is quite a bit better than TK....this entire thread is moot when Tanner FN Glass plays 100% of the games while either one of these guys are scratched. We are discussing meaningless decisions while the elephant in the room is completely ignored.

Tanner Glass is starting to garner more hate from me than the entire Flyers team. Until he loses his roster spot, we shouldn't be discussing any other roster decisions.
Would you rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line?

I'm not saying Glass is a better player than Bennett, but placing Bennett in Glass' role would not benefit him. Two totally different types of players, and I say this as one of the many people who said "Why hasn't Glass been scratched yet?"

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04-29-2013, 12:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Would you rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line?

I'm not saying Glass is a better player than Bennett, but placing Bennett in Glass' role would not benefit him. Two totally different types of players, and I say this as one of the many people who said "Why hasn't Glass been scratched yet?"
Just because Bennett is in the lineup doesn't mean he has to be a direct replacement for the player he displaces. I also completely hate the mentality that a 4th line has any other goal besides outscore your competition while out on the ice. Any player that helps you achieve this goal better than another, totally deserves to be on the ice.

Cooke should be on 4th line in Glass's "role" IMO. "Role" would not en-tale getting plastered in shot differential, give up a 5v5 goal against after getting stuck out by icing the puck, and skate for 2min of 4v5 time like Glass currently does.

"Role" would be lay effective body checks on star players, provide elite PK effort, get a 0 or + corsi, and chip in at 5v5 by either being a net 0 or slightly + in goal diff. I see Cooke, Jokinen, Sutter, Dupuis, and Adams all capable of playing the PK without Glass. Once again, I don't see any need for Glass on this team.

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04-29-2013, 01:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Would you rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line?

I'm not saying Glass is a better player than Bennett, but placing Bennett in Glass' role would not benefit him. Two totally different types of players, and I say this as one of the many people who said "Why hasn't Glass been scratched yet?"
Yes. I absolutely without hesitation want Bennett on the fourth line.

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04-29-2013, 01:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Just because Bennett is in the lineup doesn't mean he has to be a direct replacement for the player he displaces. I also completely hate the mentality that a 4th line has any other goal besides outscore your competition while out on the ice. Any player that helps you achieve this goal better than another, totally deserves to be on the ice.

Cooke should be on 4th line in Glass's "role" IMO. "Role" would not en-tale getting plastered in shot differential, give up a 5v5 goal against after getting stuck out by icing the puck, and skate for 2min of 4v5 time like Glass currently does.

"Role" would be lay effective body checks on star players, provide elite PK effort, get a 0 or + corsi, and chip in at 5v5 by either being a net 0 or slightly + in goal diff. I see Cooke, Jokinen, Sutter, Dupuis, and Adams all capable of playing the PK without Glass. Once again, I don't see any need for Glass on this team.
He could keep a seat in the press box very toasty. Addition by Subtraction

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04-29-2013, 01:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Would you rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line?

I'm not saying Glass is a better player than Bennett, but placing Bennett in Glass' role would not benefit him. Two totally different types of players, and I say this as one of the many people who said "Why hasn't Glass been scratched yet?"
Yes, I absolutely would rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line than Tanner Glass.

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04-29-2013, 02:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
Would you rather have Beau Bennett on the 4th line?

I'm not saying Glass is a better player than Bennett, but placing Bennett in Glass' role would not benefit him. Two totally different types of players, and I say this as one of the many people who said "Why hasn't Glass been scratched yet?"
I've said this dozens of times, but no winger on this team cleans up his own end better than BB. Maybe Dupuis and that's about it.

So ya, I want him out there on the fourth line protecting leads. I trust him way more than Glass who has poor anticipation of the play and gets caught out of position way too often.

BB has an uncanny ability to get to pucks in the slot and other dangerous areas, and quickly transition the play the other way. There is a reason the fourth line gets hemmed in its own end so damn often when Glass s it there.

It's not magic or luck that BB knows where to go to clean things up when it gets scrambly... it's anticipation and you can't teach it.

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04-30-2013, 12:03 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've said this dozens of times, but no winger on this team cleans up his own end better than BB. Maybe Dupuis and that's about it.

So ya, I want him out there on the fourth line protecting leads. I trust him way more than Glass who has poor anticipation of the play and gets caught out of position way too often.

BB has an uncanny ability to get to pucks in the slot and other dangerous areas, and quickly transition the play the other way. There is a reason the fourth line gets hemmed in its own end so damn often when Glass s it there.

It's not magic or luck that BB knows where to go to clean things up when it gets scrambly... it's anticipation and you can't teach it.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I'd love to see evidence of Kennedy blatantly misplaying his man in transition, be it on D or O. The guy knows where to be...Granted, he has hands of stone, but he's tenacious and, for his size, has quite a bit of fight, energy, insert-intangible-quality here.

Look, Bennett is definitely going to make Kennedy expendable, perhaps as soon as this offseason, but if you don't see the value of a guy who knows the system, and is willing to rip the puck (granted, not into the net often) EVERY time he gets it, and is not a defensive or transition liability, there is no argument to reach you.

Sure it can be argued that now that we have more shooters, his role is diminished, but you can't fault him for being developed as a shoot-first player...really, with Staal and Cooke (with whom he played most of his career) he was THE option for getting an O-zone freeze to bring in the 1st or 2nd line...and considering how often the aforementioned line had d-zone starts in their heyday, I don't have a problem with that.


Last edited by Dimetapppp: 04-30-2013 at 12:03 AM. Reason: EDIT- STAAAAAAAAAL, one L
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Old
04-30-2013, 12:35 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dimetapppp View Post
I don't disagree with this at all, but I'd love to see evidence of Kennedy blatantly misplaying his man in transition, be it on D or O. The guy knows where to be...Granted, he has hands of stone, but he's tenacious and, for his size, has quite a bit of fight, energy, insert-intangible-quality here.
I've been pointing out his missed assignments all season. There is a reason DB, a man loath to bench vets, finally scratched him and even benched him in a game. You really have to play like complete **** as a vet before DB will bench you.

Quote:
Look, Bennett is definitely going to make Kennedy expendable, perhaps as soon as this offseason, but if you don't see the value of a guy who knows the system, and is willing to rip the puck (granted, not into the net often) EVERY time he gets it, and is not a defensive or transition liability, there is no argument to reach you.
TK has become a liability at both ends and it is obvious even to people who don't know the game well.

There literally is no argument to defend his play, unless you want to play the "what if" game. As in what if he gets his head out if his ass, could he help thus team? Yea... if if if.

There is no what if with BB. He is playing head and shoulders above TK right now at both ends.

Quote:
Sure it can be argued that now that we have more shooters, his role is diminished, but you can't fault him for being developed as a shoot-first player...really, with Staal and Cooke (with whom he played most of his career) he was THE option for getting an O-zone freeze to bring in the 1st or 2nd line...and considering how often the aforementioned line had d-zone starts in their heyday, I don't have a problem with that.
I've watched TK from the Hounds up to the NHL. He was one of my favorite prospects and players until he started playing like complete ass. Just because I liked the guy, doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to his poor play.

If you want to make a case for TK over Glass, I can get on board with that. But saying TK deserves to play over BB is blatantly false. The only reason BB will be sitting is because he is a rookie, which is BS, because I can list dozens upon dozens of rookies who played big parts in helping their teams win a SC over the years.

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04-30-2013, 01:48 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've been pointing out his missed assignments all season. There is a reason DB, a man loath to bench vets, finally scratched him and even benched him in a game. You really have to play like complete **** as a vet before DB will bench you.
I agree with everything you said in the rest of your post and your views of TK in general, but I wouldn't read anything into the above, about TK being scratched (unless there is some quote about DB not being happy with his play or something that I missed). I think that move the other night was simply to give TK a night off, but more importantly to give Beau Bennett and some of the other guys who haven't been playing as regularly (Engelland, for example) a chance to get into the line-up so they would be as fresh as possible, because these guys are very likely to be in the opening line-up; or at least be ready as the probable first guys to get in, in their respective positions, if they aren't in the first game.


But I, too, cannot figure out for the life of me why -- in a contract year, no less -- TK has gone from being a pretty steady performer and actually a spark plug for the team in the past, to a guy who has been sub-par, and at times piss poor, all season. I gave him the benefit of the doubt a little bit at the beginning of the season, attributing his poor play to the rust of not playing elsewhere in the lockout. But that excuse vanished after the first 10-12 games when he should have been back in full game shape. Perhaps it's because he sees the writing on the wall and knows, contractually, that he doesn't fit on this team going forward, or perhaps it's something else...


But whatever the reason, TK has not been great, and certainly has not been better than Beau Bennett, or even Joe Vitale most of the time. I do think he will have a very short leash if he is in the starting 12 and I do think he has the ability (because he has shown it in the past and does have playoff/Cup experience on his side) to raise his game to another level. But he better do just that, or he'll find himself in the pressbox. And that won't be great for us when we're trading him at the draft, because a productive TK who plays every playoff game vs. one who sits out will probably be the difference of whether we get a 2nd round pick or a 5th round pick for his rights. Other than that issue, there's no question that Beau Bennett is the better player right now. let's see how each of these guys handles their opportunity in the playoffs when the stakes get higher, however.

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04-30-2013, 02:04 AM
  #64
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the only time this year that our fourth line actually looked like a threat to score. only time they actually maintained some offensive zone pressure was when beau was on it. so yes put beau on the fourth line and sit glass

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04-30-2013, 02:10 AM
  #65
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the only time this year that our fourth line actually looked like a threat to score. only time they actually maintained some offensive zone pressure was when beau was on it. so yes put beau on the fourth line and sit glass

I fully agree, although I would like to see a line of Adams-Vitale-Bennett, or Adams-Jeffrey-Bennett, because I think Jeffrey and Vitale (and Jokinen) are all better than Glass, and would give that line legitimate scoring depth. But hey, it's not going to happen like that. Glass will play, and Vitale and Jeffrey probably won't, unless there's injury. Oh well...

I just hope we are able to keep Jeffrey in our top-12 for next year and he won't ask for a trade due to (rightfully) feeling like he won't get the opportunity. We have to play this guy next year and develop him, because he could develop into a very significant trade asset for us, and/or significantly help contribute going forward for a year or two before her merits a raise we can't afford (and gives us immediate centre depth in the event of injury for next year, which Sundqvist and Blueger are not ready to provide for a while)

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04-30-2013, 02:15 AM
  #66
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I agree with everything you said in the rest of your post and your views of TK in general, but I wouldn't read anything into the above, about TK being scratched (unless there is some quote about DB not being happy with his play or something that I missed). I think that move the other night was simply to give TK a night off, but more importantly to give Beau Bennett and some of the other guys who haven't been playing as regularly (Engelland, for example) a chance to get into the line-up so they would be as fresh as possible, because these guys are very likely to be in the opening line-up; or at least be ready as the probable first guys to get in, in their respective positions, if they aren't in the first game.


But I, too, cannot figure out for the life of me why -- in a contract year, no less -- TK has gone from being a pretty steady performer and actually a spark plug for the team in the past, to a guy who has been sub-par, and at times piss poor, all season. I gave him the benefit of the doubt a little bit at the beginning of the season, attributing his poor play to the rust of not playing elsewhere in the lockout. But that excuse vanished after the first 10-12 games when he should have been back in full game shape. Perhaps it's because he sees the writing on the wall and knows, contractually, that he doesn't fit on this team going forward, or perhaps it's something else...


But whatever the reason, TK has not been great, and certainly has not been better than Beau Bennett, or even Joe Vitale most of the time. I do think he will have a very short leash if he is in the starting 12 and I do think he has the ability (because he has shown it in the past and does have playoff/Cup experience on his side) to raise his game to another level. But he better do just that, or he'll find himself in the pressbox. And that won't be great for us when we're trading him at the draft, because a productive TK who plays every playoff game vs. one who sits out will probably be the difference of whether we get a 2nd round pick or a 5th round pick for his rights. Other than that issue, there's no question that Beau Bennett is the better player right now. let's see how each of these guys handles their opportunity in the playoffs when the stakes get higher, however.
I don't think you have to read into much to know DB and Shero are unhappy with him.

Shero called out TK for his poor play already this season:

Quote:
"With TK, and I know the coaches have talked to him, he's a guy that needs to pick up his play and it's important for him to do so," Shero told reporters, according to The Hockey Writers' Mike Colligan.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...-sidney-crosby

He was benched in-game for his poor play and has responded to his coach and GM being unhappy with his play by... Putting up paltry numbers and being a train wreck at both ends.

Every stat shows BB is the better player; every eyeball test shows BB is the better player.

Unfortunately BB is a rookie and TK helped DB win a cup four yrs ago, so its likely he gets to play because "what if", not actually based on his current play.

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04-30-2013, 02:49 AM
  #67
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The fact that we even have to make this thread is.... Disappointing...

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04-30-2013, 03:13 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've said this dozens of times, but no winger on this team cleans up his own end better than BB. Maybe Dupuis and that's about it.
Bennett has been much, much better defensively than anyone could have hoped for, but that is one major exaggeration based on way too small a sample size to mean anything. Seriously.

I do very much agree with the conclusion just the same though. Bennett definitely should be in our starting lineup.

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04-30-2013, 08:49 AM
  #69
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It is not hard to come to the conclusion that BB is better than TK.

According to GVT/G, Bennett has been better than Cooke, Sutter, Morrow(although DAL stats bringing him down), and Adams. He is right at Igilna and Jokinen's level of GVT/game. This level is "top 9" on this team or "top 6" on most teams.

All I know is that Glass has played an entire season below replacement level (ie below the best WBS players) and hasn't been scratched once. Trevor Smith and Vitale have contributed more (not by much though). Trevor fn Smith. Once again, he is the elephant in the room compared to TK/BB decision.

The thought of BB not starting in the playoffs will be proof of how moronic this organization can be. Do they not want to play their best hand?

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04-30-2013, 10:27 AM
  #70
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I mean really, a FOURTH line of Adams-Jokinen-Bennett is just flat out scary.

Because you know that Morrow/Sutter/Cooke will make up the 3rd line.

We could legitimately state a case that we have the best 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines in hockey at that point.

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04-30-2013, 10:39 AM
  #71
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Shero is such a boss. Love him calling out TK like that

I bet he is starting to influence the lineups a bit since HCDB is so incompetent at that

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04-30-2013, 10:52 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
I mean really, a FOURTH line of Adams-Jokinen-Bennett is just flat out scary.

Because you know that Morrow/Sutter/Cooke will make up the 3rd line.

We could legitimately state a case that we have the best 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines in hockey at that point.
Along the lines of having the best 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines...I think we legitimately have a chance to -- on paper at least -- run the four best lines in hockey.

I believe that if we run...

Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Jokinen-Bennett
Cooke-Sutter-Adams

OR

Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Sutter-Cooke
Bennett-Jokinen-Adams

...then EITHER of our top two lines are right there with ANY other top line in the playoffs, our 3rd line is as good if not better than any other 3rd, and our 4th line is as good if not better than any other 4th.

BUT -- benching Bennett, and inserting Kennedy into the lineup takes whatever line Kennedy is on down a notch. Worse, insert Glass, and the line becomes instantly mediocre, in my opinion -- he is THAT MUCH of a liability, in my mind, at least from an offensive point of view.

The WORST thing that could be done to the lineup IMO (and I fear it will be), would be to bench Bennett, AND put Jokinen at wing. NOT that I think Jokinen would be a bad wing, but he's a better center than anyone else we have not named Crosby or Malkin, and maybe Sutter. With Bennett sitting, and Jokinen at wing, it leaves the 3rd and 4th lines something like this:

Morrow-Sutter-Jokinen
Cooke-Adams-Glass/Kennedy

Still a very good third line, but now, the 4th line is a MUCH weaker unit. Unfortunately, that is a very real possibility. A Cooke-Adams-Glass or Cooke-Adams-Kennedy 4th line is SO much inferior to a Cooke-Sutter-Adams, a Cooke-Jokinen-Adams, a Bennett-Jokinen-Adams, or a Bennett-Sutter-Adams line.

Some would take the two lines above, and suggest moving Cooke up and Jokinen down --

Morrow-Sutter-Cooke
Jokinen-Adams-Glass/Kennedy

Again, a very good third line, but a screwed-up (IMO) 4th line. Jokinen needs to play with more skilled players, IMO. He isn't properly used in a purely defensive/checking role, which is what an Jokinen-Adams-Glass line would be. That is mis-use of personnel, IMO.

Bottom line -- bench Kennedy and Glass, and play Bennett (and keep Iggy OFF OF MALKIN'S LW), and you really can't screw things up, IMO. The good news is, I actually have SOME shred of hope that each of these things may happen -- at least for SOME of the games...


Last edited by steveg: 04-30-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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04-30-2013, 11:23 AM
  #73
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Bennett has been much, much better defensively than anyone could have hoped for, but that is one major exaggeration based on way too small a sample size to mean anything. Seriously.
It's far from an exaggeration. This is based on THIS season. And for THIS season, there is enough of a sample size to say BB is the second best defensive winger on this team.

Dupuis is probably the best defensive winger on this team. After him, please tell me another winger that has been as responsible with the puck, as consistent with his assignments, has the same instincts for finding loose pucks, and takes the proper BC angles, than BB?

Not Neal. He has struggled in his own end all season and while he is a BC force when he is on his game, he has never been special playing behind his blueline.

Not Kunitz. His play in his own end is usually above avg, but he has had an up and down season, especially taking care of the puck.

Not Cooke. He is the closest guy after Dupuis, but he doesn't have BB instincts for finding loose pucks when things break down.

Not TK. I'm not even going here.

Not Iggy. He is a willing BC, but is just avg in his own end.

Not Morrow. He is positionally sound, but struggles covering his zone when the puck is moved up high. He also struggles at times when guys kick out from dead stops... Several times he has fallen straight down trying to defend it.

Glass... Please.

If you think any of the wingers above, THIS season, have played more consistent in their own end and been as responsible with the puck than BB, cool. I disagree.

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04-30-2013, 11:29 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's far from an exaggeration. This is based on THIS season. And for THIS season, there is enough of a sample size to say BB is the second best defensive winger on this team.

Dupuis is probably the best defensive winger on this team. After him, please tell me another winger that has been as responsible with the puck, as consistent with his assignments, has the same instincts for finding loose pucks, and takes the proper BC angles, than BB?

Not Neal. He has struggled in his own end all season and while he is a BC force when he is on his game, he has never been special playing behind his blueline.

Not Kunitz. His play in his own end is usually above avg, but he has had an up and down season, especially taking care of the puck.

Not Cooke. He is the closest guy after Dupuis, but he doesn't have BB instincts for finding loose pucks when things break down.

Not TK. I'm not even going here.

Not Iggy. He is a willing BC, but is just avg in his own end.

Not Morrow. He is positionally sound, but struggles covering his zone when the puck is moved up high. He also struggles at times when guys kick out from dead stops... Several times he has fallen straight down trying to defend it.

Glass... Please.

If you think any of the wingers above, THIS season, have played more consistent in their own end and been as responsible with the puck than BB, cool. I disagree.
Jigg -- I have to agree with you here. When they are having a good game, I see Cooke, Kunitz, Morrow, or Iggy capable of being roughly as good OVERALL in a defensive zone/back-checking role as BB. But, I still might give the nod to BB even when either of these other four are having very good games. There is something "intangible," as you point out, that BB has -- a sense of what to do when a puck is loose. He very, very rarely makes a mistake, and almost ALWAYS, instictively, makes the simple, safe play...

I'm with you, Mr. Jiggfly. If I'm the coach, BB is one my top defensive forwards (and amazingly, the package that is BB includes not only his defensive ability, but also comes with a pretty impressive offensive repertoire, as well... )

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04-30-2013, 11:35 AM
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jmelm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I don't think you have to read into much to know DB and Shero are unhappy with him.

Shero called out TK for his poor play already this season:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...-sidney-crosby

He was benched in-game for his poor play and has responded to his coach and GM being unhappy with his play by... Putting up paltry numbers and being a train wreck at both ends.

Every stat shows BB is the better player; every eyeball test shows BB is the better player.

Unfortunately BB is a rookie and TK helped DB win a cup four yrs ago, so its likely he gets to play because "what if", not actually based on his current play.

Ahh, I never did see that quote before. There's no question that BB is the better player, at both ends of the ice, right now. He's also got that kind of game-breaking creativity you want in the playoffs.

Also, I believe where there's smoke there's fire: 3 teams over the last 3 or 4 years, TSN (McKenzie, Dreger, or LeBrun) mentioned on their trade deadline show that certain players were available. 3 years ago they said Max Talbot could be had; last year they said that about Tangradi; and this year they said that about TK. IN each of those first 2 cases, the guys were gone within a year. There's no question the writing is on the wall for TK, though it would be nice if we could extract as much as possible for his rights in a trade.

But with all that said, and with virtually everyone agreeing on here that Bennett should be in the starting line-up over TK and perhaps even some others, I still hope that if TK does get the nod, he can elevate his game for us, because if he keeps playing the way he has been, he's not going to be much help for us at all. He is capable of performing better, so I hope he does just that if he gets the nod. If he doesn't, he'll be on a short leash and find himself in the pressbox pretty quickly, IMO.

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