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Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

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04-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #326
RandyHolt
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Tex do you think he remains injury prone, or not? That is really the only issue the OP has.

I know players as they age learn their bodies better, condition better, play smarter. Hopefully, learn to take hits.

No one has every questioned his offensive talents, especially when playing on the leagues top rated power play.

Are you saying leading the league in goals, he wouldn't fetch a monster return?

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04-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #327
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RH

The issue with the health concerns can apply to a bunch of players in the league.

The OP may say "trade him b/c of his health!" but is that wise?

Would the Penguins be wise to move both Malkin and Crosby? Both have had their fair share of injury issues. I'm sure they could get a "monster" return for either of them.

So in summary the thougt is this:

Health issues+potential monster return=Trade player

I think not.

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04-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
Tex do you think he remains injury prone, or not? That is really the only issue the OP has.

I know players as they age learn their bodies better, condition better, play smarter. Hopefully, learn to take hits.

No one has every questioned his offensive talents, especially when playing on the leagues top rated power play.

Are you saying leading the league in goals, he wouldn't fetch a monster return?
i am saying that if you are a sell high believer, now is the time. many here wanted green gone and have said that after that 70pt season he should have been traded.

well, now he is back. he is now again leading the league's defensemen in goal scoring. if you believed he should have been traded after the norris trophy nomination, here is a second chance to get it done.

my view on green is an unpopular one. nothing new for me. that he is an unreplaceable player. that his offensive gifts and skating ability are unmatched and what he brings at the level he can bring it is unique among nhl defenseman. i wouldnt let him go on a bet. my view is that the key to a caps stanley cup is in the pocket of 52 and the caps will go as far as mike green can take them.

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04-29-2013, 09:47 AM
  #329
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I said I do not want him moved. I am playing devils advocate somewhat.

Injuries are the wildcard.

All teams deal with health issues. But the teams mission critical players must be the durable ones. Yes, the pens can and have won without Sid. They have strong center depth. They have Malkin, we have Carlson and Oleksy. What is our teams record with Green out of the lineup? What is Pitts without Sid?

I suspect no one in the history of HF kind has ever proposed selling on a high without being heckled. Is it always wrong to hold and wait and see? If so, how long. What is the major injury count... or is there even one.

The return would presumably for someone near Green's pay grade. We would not be getting a schlub.

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04-29-2013, 10:07 AM
  #330
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The people who want Green traded, are the same who wanted Murphy and Gonchar gone from here and do not understand the importance of having a guy like that on the blueline. Putting him with our best stay at home defenseman was genius.

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04-29-2013, 10:14 AM
  #331
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The people who want Green traded, are the same who wanted Murphy and Gonchar gone from here and do not understand the importance of having a guy like that on the blueline.
And those who are saying it is because of injuries never said a word when Tinordi was missing 30% of the games the Caps played when he was here.

Green is Mr. Glass IMO but when on the ice he means too much to get rid of without a fantastic return but his injury history makes it very unlikely he would bring back enough.

It is what it is and I guess I am ok with it...

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04-29-2013, 10:14 AM
  #332
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I think the pure genius move was Oates unlocking his offense once again, finally. The Yzerman Snub Whisperer.

I believe, through the simple directive, join the rush, go try and score, but don't go below the dots, unlocked him.

The timing of Green's red hot run started right about when that news came out.

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04-29-2013, 10:44 AM
  #333
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And those who are saying it is because of injuries never said a word when Tinordi was missing 30% of the games the Caps played when he was here.

Green is Mr. Glass IMO but when on the ice he means too much to get rid of without a fantastic return but his injury history makes it very unlikely he would bring back enough.

It is what it is and I guess I am ok with it...
Tinner was a different kind of Dman. The ones fans usually hate on are the offensive D. Its true across pretty much every fanbase. No one hated Langway (even though he was soft ....) or Hatcher when he was a less risky more in your face dman.

Offensive/skill D have the puck more and take more risks. Instead of looking at the reward actions fans tend to look at the skrew ups. Then the hooting and scapegoating begin. Its easy to focus on negatives being a Caps fan due to our poor history and how it wears on and frustrates fans.

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04-29-2013, 11:58 AM
  #334
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Problem with Green is that he's never been able to bring offense or avoid punishment in playoffs. You can say he's not had the right partners, well, if you can't find the right way to use an asset, maybe that asset is not for you. I guess we'll see how he does this time around with Alzner and renewed confidence.

But right now I'm just thankful that at least he's been able to shake off the injuries that threatened the Caps with an anvil of a contract for a potentially ineffective player. The prospect of that debacle has made his historical playoff ineffectiveness (compared to salary) less of an issue by comparison, lol. Plus McPhee has made so many other dumb asset decisions that Green's salary has also slid down the list of potential things to improve upon

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04-29-2013, 12:08 PM
  #335
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so, green finishes the season leading the nhl defensemen in goal scoring after missing 20% of the games. looks like his game is back. time to sell high. trade him.
I mean, yes, it is. If you believe a trade is the right move because he's never going to stay healthy long-term, then this is exactly what you wanted to happen, for the sake of his trade value. If you thought a trade was the right move a few weeks ago, you should still think so, and should be very happy with how things have played out.

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04-29-2013, 12:11 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Problem with Green is that he's never been able to bring offense or avoid punishment in playoffs. You can say he's not had the right partners, well, if you can't find the right way to use an asset, maybe that asset is not for you. I guess we'll see how he does this time around with Alzner and renewed confidence.

But right now I'm just thankful that at least he's been able to shake off the injuries that threatened the Caps with an anvil of a contract for a potentially ineffective player. The prospect of that debacle has made his historical playoff ineffectiveness (compared to salary) less of an issue by comparison, lol. Plus McPhee has made so many other dumb asset decisions that Green's salary has also slid down the list of potential things to improve upon

I cant think of a time where Green was available in the playoffs, healthy. This will be new territory for sure.

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04-29-2013, 12:30 PM
  #337
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Problem with Green is that he's never been able to bring offense or avoid punishment in playoffs.
Define bring offense please.

Green's career regular season production of 277 points in 433 games is .64 points per game, which extrapolates out to 52 points per 82 games.

Green's career playoff production of 29 points in 50 games is .58 points per game, which extrapolates out to 48 points per 82 games.

I'll buy the can't avoid punishment part though.

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04-29-2013, 12:34 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
I cant think of a time where Green was available in the playoffs, healthy. This will be new territory for sure.
2008 against the Flyers. That's when Stevens discovered you could neutralize him by hitting him. That also explains why he hasn't ever been healthy in the postseason.

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04-29-2013, 12:39 PM
  #339
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I cant think of a time where Green was available in the playoffs, healthy. This will be new territory for sure.
Vespa accident impending.

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04-29-2013, 01:22 PM
  #340
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2008 against the Flyers. That's when Stevens discovered you could neutralize him by hitting him. That also explains why he hasn't ever been healthy in the postseason.
We didn't have the team toughness nor the gumption to protect him then.

BB wanted us the "turn the other" cheek and wait for the officials to do their thing.

Thats why Hartnell and Briere ran roughshot over Huet unchecked.

Caps carry a much different mentality this year and that is a direct result of coaching philosophy. The one thing BB and Hunter both shunned away from Oates is absolutely stressing.

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04-29-2013, 01:24 PM
  #341
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We didn't have the team toughness nor the gumption to protect him then.

BB wanted us the "turn the other" cheek and wait for the officials to do their thing.

Thats why Hartnell and Briere ran roughshot over Huet unchecked.

Caps carry a much different mentality this year and that is a direct result of coaching philosophy. The one thing BB and Hunter both shunned away from Oates is absolutely stressing.
We'll find out very soon.

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04-29-2013, 01:28 PM
  #342
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i am saying that if you are a sell high believer, now is the time. many here wanted green gone and have said that after that 70pt season he should have been traded.

well, now he is back. he is now again leading the league's defensemen in goal scoring. if you believed he should have been traded after the norris trophy nomination, here is a second chance to get it done.

my view on green is an unpopular one. nothing new for me. that he is an unreplaceable player. that his offensive gifts and skating ability are unmatched and what he brings at the level he can bring it is unique among nhl defenseman. i wouldnt let him go on a bet. my view is that the key to a caps stanley cup is in the pocket of 52 and the caps will go as far as mike green can take them.
Im fine with 52 if he produces....and he is...well, in the regular season. 52 is a guy that needs space.....which is exactly why teams go out of their way to hit him and not give him that space. In the playoffs there isnt much space and what space there is generally disappears quickly.

You say he is "back"....and in terms of regular season production it seems that may be the case. What he has never shown is the ability to bring that game to the playoffs...I know you want to post how he had a few assists and a goal here and there when they were getting beat in past springs......what he needs to do is be an offensive force in the playoffs, its that simple. If he can get to that point it will be great.....his poor play along the boards and risky stick moves in traffic with a man in his face could definitely be offset by offensive production

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04-29-2013, 01:28 PM
  #343
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the cant avoid punishment stuff. anyone notice what oates says is the first priority of his system? it protects his defensemen from punishment. that the defense is the launching pad for the rush and the forecheck.

take that as a comment of a bright analytical hockey mind. then look at bruce boudreau and you have to wonder if there was any thing about his system that helped mike green at all? could have been that boudreau actually hung him out to dry systematically?

i dont know enough about this stuff to know for sure but you would think if oates can create a system who's first tenant is to protect mike green wouldnt you think bruce would have thought boudreau would have tried the same?

if you are looking for a flaw in bb's game maybe that was it.

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04-29-2013, 01:30 PM
  #344
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In the playoffs there isnt much space and what space there is generally disappears quickly.

You say he is "back"....and in terms of regular season production it seems that may be the case. What he has never shown is the ability to bring that game to the playoffs...
iirc he was among the caps best players last playoffs even in that restrictive system.

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04-29-2013, 01:30 PM
  #345
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We'll find out very soon.
They didn't back down against the Sens or the Bs in two meaningless games. I seriously doubt they back down against the Rangers.

Oates has the pedal to the metal and there are no passengers in the lineup.

Erskine is actually getting a sweater this time around and we have Oleksy in place of Schultz.

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04-29-2013, 01:38 PM
  #346
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iirc he was among the caps best players last playoffs even in that restrictive system.
I'd say he was our third best dman after Hammer and Carlson.

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04-29-2013, 01:43 PM
  #347
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Define bring offense please.

Green's career regular season production of 277 points in 433 games is .64 points per game, which extrapolates out to 52 points per 82 games.

Green's career playoff production of 29 points in 50 games is .58 points per game, which extrapolates out to 48 points per 82 games.

I'll buy the can't avoid punishment part though.
Seems skewed to me. When 52 was making a run at the Norris he wasnt a .64 ppg player....in any case....when he is on his game he is skating and making things happen with assertive play. In the playoffs he always has seemed more tentative with the puck than normal games. Maybe thats mental and not processing the pressure well or maybe its because the pressure is picked up and teams target him more and he hasnt been able to shake that....hard to say.

History is filled with great regular season players that just didnt get it done at the same level in the playoffs

Are you suggesting that, because his career regular season/playoff numbers are in the same ballpark that he has essentially been the same type of player with the same sort of impact? Because that just isnt how I look at it.....

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04-29-2013, 01:45 PM
  #348
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iirc he was among the caps best players last playoffs even in that restrictive system.
well we just disagree on that

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04-29-2013, 02:10 PM
  #349
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I'd say he was our third best dman after Hammer and Carlson.
which is saying something considering that hunter's game and rules for defensemen took almost all of green's elite skills away from him.

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04-29-2013, 02:20 PM
  #350
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which is saying something considering that hunter's game and rules for defensemen took almost all of green's elite skills away from him.
That's a fascinating way of saying that he played worse than two less talented players and that he was a major culprit in the failure of a power play.

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