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04-29-2013, 02:21 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Yea because Holmgren has done a fantastic job. He traded all of our draft picks for years and then had to trade his two star players to reload. He then signed and above average goalie to an elite level contract to solve the goalie problem. Many around here knew it wouldn't work including myself and now he is stuck with yet another cap hit that doesn't produce as it should.
Hold on a second there boss. There weren't a lot of people here that were thrilled about the length of the contract, but everyone thought the goaltending problem was fixed for at least the next 5 years after he signed. People here were targeting Bryz well before that season ended.

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04-29-2013, 02:22 PM
  #402
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Hold on a second there boss. There weren't a lot of people here that were thrilled about the length of the contract, but everyone thought the goaltending problem was fixed for at least the next 5 years after he signed. People here were targeting Bryz well before that season ended.
If he means "around here" in the broad sense, there were several Phoenix fans who told us it wouldn't work. I blissfully ignored them.

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04-29-2013, 02:27 PM
  #403
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There were some from the Phoenix board as beef said and there were people like me who wanted us to stick with Bob and sign a cheaper vet like Theodore or Vokoun. I watched Bryz a little while he was in Phoenix and watched a lot of him the Olympics and other international play and dint show me anything special. He was also absolutely dreadful in the Playoffs in 2010 if I remember correctly


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04-29-2013, 02:31 PM
  #404
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I was one of those people that wanted the Vokoun/Bob tandem, but I never for a second thought Bryz would not be a top goalie. He had been a very good player for 3 out of 4 years.

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04-29-2013, 02:38 PM
  #405
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It does seem like the ranks of those who "knew" Bryzgalov would never work have multiplied over the past 18 months.

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04-29-2013, 02:41 PM
  #406
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I didn't like the contract right off the bat but I didn't think Bryz would be this average. Thank God for us the new CBA gave us compliance buy-outs.

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04-29-2013, 02:50 PM
  #407
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I was one of the folks that wanted Bob & Vokoun too, however I was still happy they got Bryzgalov. I want Bryz to succeed so much.

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04-29-2013, 02:52 PM
  #408
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Dont get me wrong, I would love to see Bryz be one of the top goalies in the league. I also really like him as a person, but he just hasn't provided anything that makes us have to keep him and that contract

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04-29-2013, 02:55 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Dont get me wrong, I would love to see Bryz be one of the top goalies in the league. I also really like him as a person, but he just hasn't provided anything that makes us have to keep him and that contract
With this, I agree. Cap going down really screwed the Flyers in that regard. I like the guy a lot too, however, if you can get similar production for less money and improve other areas of the team, you pretty much have to. That's really the tough pill to swallow here. I still don't amnesty him til next summer.

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04-29-2013, 02:57 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
With this, I agree. Cap going down really screwed the Flyers in that regard. I like the guy a lot too, however, if you can get similar production for less money and improve other areas of the team, you pretty much have to. That's really the tough pill to swallow here. I still don't amnesty him til next summer.
I agree that we will wait until next off-season to amnesty him. Lets just hope that Mason can keep up his play for next season and beyond so that we can finally solve this goalie issue

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04-29-2013, 03:02 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
It does seem like the ranks of those who "knew" Bryzgalov would never work have multiplied over the past 18 months.
I wanted Vokoun and hated Bryz's contract from the start, but I did not expect him to be this bad and I did not expect Bobs to be this good. I just expected Vokoun to be the better of the three.

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04-29-2013, 03:34 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
I agree that we will wait until next off-season to amnesty him. Lets just hope that Mason can keep up his play for next season and beyond so that we can finally solve this goalie issue
The million dollar question though is who out there is better if the Flyers buy out Bryzgalov? The rest of the market isn't too appealing. On top of it, are you comfortable enough with Mason's 7 game trial to give him the starter's job? Honestly, I'm not comfortable with buying out Bryzgalov and resting on the laurel's of Steve Mason's 7 game tryout. If Mason can put together 30 good games in a Flyers uniform, then next season, use the buy out Bryzgalov.

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04-29-2013, 03:36 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The million dollar question though is who out there is better if the Flyers buy out Bryzgalov? The rest of the market isn't too appealing. On top of it, are you comfortable enough with Mason's 7 game trial to give him the starter's job? Honestly, I'm not comfortable with buying out Bryzgalov and resting on the laurel's of Steve Mason's 7 game tryout. If Mason can put together 30 good games in a Flyers uniform, then next season, use the buy out Bryzgalov.
I think that's what he was saying.

I don't believe anyone thinks that the Flyers are buying out Bryzgalov this season--unless there's some massive other deal in the works.

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04-29-2013, 03:42 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
I wanted Vokoun and hated Bryz's contract from the start, but I did not expect him to be this bad and I did not expect Bobs to be this good. I just expected Vokoun to be the better of the three.
I don't think anyone was really happy with the contract. I thoguht Bryz would be better than Vokoun. Bob I wasn't really sold on. At the time he had one good season and a terrible playoffs. It really made sense to go after a long-term solution in Bryzgalov. Sticking with Bob and getting a Vokoun for two years wasn't a long term solution. It was a possibility of a long-term solution, but also could have left us in a a situation where we still had no goalie moving forward. Bryzgalov at least looked like a safe bet. Yes it was an overpayment, but to secure something the Flyers haven't had since Hextall, the overpayment seemed worth it. No one thought Bryz would be this bad. This was a move that backfired on the Flyers, but at the time, it really was the safest choice.

You have three choices:

1) Go with a young kid who put up good numbers in his first regular season, followed up by an atrocious playoffs.

2) Go with a stop-gap for a year or two in hopes that the young kid rebounds

3) Go with the top UFA goalie and former Vezina Trophy finalist

People may have different preferences, but I think that all other things being equal, the safe choice there was the top UFA goalie. All three chocies have their risks. 1) you risk having a kid with very little experience take over as the #1 goalie. He may be fine, but he may look like he did in the playoffs. 2) you get a veteran that is nearing the end of his career who should be able to hold down the fort for a year or two (if, and that's a big if, if he signs with you). After that you have to either start the goalie-finding process all over again, or go with the young kid if he is capable of taking over. 3) you sure up the goalie position for the foreseeable future. The only thing you risk really is overpaying. I know that he imploded, but that isn't really a risk you factor in at the time because the guy was coming off back to back + .920 save percentage years and a Vezina nomination. Sure it is possible that any player will implode, but when signing a UFA of that caliber that is not really somethign you factor in. Maybe it should be, but I don't think it really happens with guys of that caliber (see all the huge UFA contracts that were given out over the past few years to high caliber guys). This wasn't like signing Ville Leino to a huge a deal. This was signing an established goalie. It backfired. I wish they hadn't done it. But I think looking back, the same thing happens again and again.

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04-29-2013, 03:53 PM
  #415
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The reality began to kick in when Vokoun signed for dirt (1.5) and still posted .917 SV%.

Bryz posted .909 -- which is deceiving because he pulled that stat up late in the year. Then rocked a .898 this year.

There are plenty of metrics showing the Flyer's defense is decent. They play well and then have sudden, catastrophic collapses. Same defense Mason played in front of-- and teams play a little worse for backups when you crunch the numbers-- and he pushes out a .936 (granted it is a small sample size and he was definitely in the zone).

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04-29-2013, 04:07 PM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
The million dollar question though is who out there is better if the Flyers buy out Bryzgalov? The rest of the market isn't too appealing. On top of it, are you comfortable enough with Mason's 7 game trial to give him the starter's job? Honestly, I'm not comfortable with buying out Bryzgalov and resting on the laurel's of Steve Mason's 7 game tryout. If Mason can put together 30 good games in a Flyers uniform, then next season, use the buy out Bryzgalov.
Trying to steer this back onto the topic of overhauls and away from another pure goaltending discussion;

You certainly bring up a Gordian Knot for the team. Or Goalian Knot, if you're into bad history/hockey puns. Based on what Bryz has shown, he's not the guy. His cap hit is not ideal for his performance, assuming he carries his last 2 years into a 3rd season. Having a Huet around in a possible 1a/1b situation hamstrings the team's ability to build depth in a year when the cap is dropping.

On the other hand, what's the alternative? We can't trust Mason yet. Do we risk Thomas after a Bryz buyout? If that fails and Mason reverts, the team is boned. On the other hand, the team is in a poopy situation if they have 2-3 million in dead space tied to Bryz while Bryz struggles.

There isn't a clear solution, and both have risks. I doubted Thomas' ability to come back from hip injuries when he was in his mid/late 30s, and he proved me wrong. I don't know if he'll disprove my doubts at 39 after taking a year off, but it's not impossible. It's also not impossible that Bryz plays well next year, but he might also be an anchor again. While it might be good to wait until next year to amnesty Bryz, for the sake of waiting for more options to arise, we might/will feel foolish if Thomas could be had and he plays well.

What other reliable goalies will be available for minimal price? I'd prefer FA. We already spent a pick on Mason, I'd rather not spend another pick to get him reliable support if Bryz is bought out earlier than expected.

Edit: Hm. Looks like I steered it back to goaltending. Modfail.

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04-29-2013, 04:12 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Trying to steer this back onto the topic of overhauls and away from another pure goaltending discussion;

You certainly bring up a Gordian Knot for the team. Or Goalian Knot, if you're into bad history/hockey puns. Based on what Bryz has shown, he's not the guy. His cap hit is not ideal for his performance, assuming he carries his last 2 years into a 3rd season. Having a Huet around in a possible 1a/1b situation hamstrings the team's ability to build depth in a year when the cap is dropping.

On the other hand, what's the alternative? We can't trust Mason yet. Do we risk Thomas after a Bryz buyout? If that fails and Mason reverts, the team is boned. On the other hand, the team is in a poopy situation if they have 2-3 million in dead space tied to Bryz while Bryz struggles.

There isn't a clear solution, and both have risks. I doubted Thomas' ability to come back from hip injuries when he was in his mid/late 30s, and he proved me wrong. I don't know if he'll disprove my doubts at 39 after taking a year off, but it's not impossible. It's also not impossible that Bryz plays well next year, but he might also be an anchor again. While it might be good to wait until next year to amnesty Bryz, for the sake of waiting for more options to arise, we might/will feel foolish if Thomas could be had and he plays well.

What other reliable goalies will be available for minimal price? I'd prefer FA. We already spent a pick on Mason, I'd rather not spend another pick to get him reliable support if Bryz is bought out earlier than expected.

Edit: Hm. Looks like I steered it back to goaltending. Modfail.
Go the Euro route. I'd like a Mason/Raanta tandem.

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04-29-2013, 04:13 PM
  #418
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I wanted Vokoun and hated Bryz's contract from the start, but I did not expect him to be this bad and I did not expect Bobs to be this good. I just expected Vokoun to be the better of the three.
Yea, I fully expected the Flyers to get Vokoun. Would've made much more sense, he was cheaper, and older. He would've been the perfect guy for Bobrovsky to work behind for a few years, but no. We got stuck with a great interview who can't stop pucks.

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04-29-2013, 04:24 PM
  #419
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i dont remeber exactly when i was officaly off the Bryz-wagon, but i def. do remember saying at some point during his first year here, that what we were seeing is basicly how he would be during his entire tenure.

basicly the sub-par bryz is the guy we have, not the March-Bryz that everyone wanted fulltime..

sadly i just dont think he's ever gunna be any different stats/play wise that what we have seen already. esp. over the course of an entire season or seasons in a row.. but i REALLY dont think Bryz is here for long, or at all going forward.

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04-29-2013, 04:31 PM
  #420
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Go the Euro route. I'd like a Mason/Raanta tandem.
Or Eriksson, the perpetual dream of all Flyers fans. Well, aside from DFF

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04-29-2013, 04:39 PM
  #421
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I wouldn't be comfortable handing over an NHL roster spot to Euro goalie right away. Sure there's guys like Fasth but most of these guys who come over after putting up crazy numbers in Europe usually bottom out. That said I wouldn't mind signing one of them and seeing what happens but I rather them earn it over here than just give them a spot right away based off their play in Europe.

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04-29-2013, 05:23 PM
  #422
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Hindsight is 20/20...but if we're going to go back and question Homers offseasons, the one to look at is 2010.

I really dont have a problem with the moves Homer made in 2011 and 2012 because I can understand where he was coming from...but 2010 was a complete disaster.

Your team came with in two games of winning the cup, and came up short largely because of goaltending. So you go get a goalie, right? WRONG. It still astonishes me that the organization was ok with going into the 2011 season with Leighton/Boucher as their goalies. It still infuriates me.

The thing to do that offseason was to trade Carter to LA for Quick and Brown. Quick was a young goalie signed to a friendly cap hit for several years...he was exactly what the Flyers needed. Rumors were out there that LA was interested in Carter after losing out to Kovy, and it seemed like they were desperate to make a splash. Brown and Quick came up in rumors, and I think this is a deal the Flyers could have gotten done (Brown and Quick in 2010 were less value then they are now). Carter was not a factor in the 2010 run...he was a player the Flyers did not need and he had a lot of value.

This couldve been their 2011 roster:

Gagne-Richards-Brown
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-FA
Caricllo-Powe-Nodl

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Coburn
Mcdonald-FA

Quick
Boucher

That team probably wins you a cup.

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04-29-2013, 05:27 PM
  #423
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There's no way Carter would have fetched us Brown and Quick in a trade even back then. LA was trying to add finishing pieces to a contending team roster. Maybe they would have parted with just Brown (he was rumored to be available at the deadline that year) in a package but moving both of them together would have been counter productive for them.

One bad season isn't going to make me change my stance on the Richards and Carter trades. We got great value for both players and I would do it all over again even with hindsight. You can argue the Flyers should have tried harder to get Voynov included in the Richards deal but LA was pretty adamant about not moving him from my understanding.


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04-29-2013, 05:29 PM
  #424
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Go the Euro route. I'd like a Mason/Raanta tandem.
This is the best option.

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04-29-2013, 05:47 PM
  #425
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I wouldn't be comfortable handing over an NHL roster spot to Euro goalie right away. Sure there's guys like Fasth but most of these guys who come over after putting up crazy numbers in Europe usually bottom out. That said I wouldn't mind signing one of them and seeing what happens but I rather them earn it over here than just give them a spot right away based off their play in Europe.
I'll take the unknown in this case. We know what we have with Bryz, and he's not the answer. What's the worst case scenario with Raanta, he puts up around a .900 save percentage?

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