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Is KHL slowly becomming the european NHL?

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04-29-2013, 03:12 AM
  #26
pakovits
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
maybe 2 or 3, not more, and after a few years these clubs wont be in KHL.
really? chelyabinsk, ekaterinburg, novokuznetsk, spartak, yugra, chekhov, aren't they all below those numbers? and few others are there or there about as well.



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That has make sense but it is not a solution for KHL. Ask yourself, why does not NHL have 6 or 10 clubs?
the purpose of nhl is to make money for its owners and 30 teams make more money than 6 or 10. what is the purpose of khl? if it is to create a high quality league that can hold on to at least a good proportion of the best eastern-european players then an 18 team league serves that goal better than a 28 team league. the territory that the league covers (ex soviet union and ex czechoslovakia) cannot support a larger number of teams that can sustain top-level hockey. even 18 is a stretch.


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04-29-2013, 03:21 AM
  #27
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really? chelyabinsk, ekaterinburg, novokuznetsk, spartak, yugra, chekhov, aren't they all below those numbers? and few others are there or there about as well.

bold + maybe Spartak


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the purpose of nhl is to make money for its owners and 30 teams make more money than 6 or 10. what is the purpose of khl? if it is to create a high quality league that can keep at least a good proportion of the best eastern-european players then an 18 team league serves that goal better than a 28 team league. the territory that the league covers (ex soviet union and ex czechoslovakia) cannot support a larger number of teams that can sustain top-level hockey. even 18 is a stretch.
therefore are almost all NHL clubs in red, great policy.

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04-29-2013, 03:57 AM
  #28
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bold + maybe Spartak
i don't think any of those, as well as a few others, have a place in a khl that strives for excellence.


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therefore are almost all NHL clubs in red, great policy.
that's not true, they all like to complain about losing money so they get a better deal when negotiating with the players. most of them make good money.

anyway that has nothing to do with my point. what is the goal of khl? is it to create a league of the highest possible quality or is it something else?

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04-29-2013, 05:19 AM
  #29
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i don't think any of those, as well as a few others, have a place in a khl that strives for excellence.
LOL. So the KHL should get rid of the Gagarin Cup finalist Traktor Chelyabinsk that has a solid budget, new arena and one of the best player development systems in Russia?

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04-29-2013, 06:11 AM
  #30
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LOL. So the KHL should get rid of the Gagarin Cup finalist Traktor Chelyabinsk that has a solid budget, new arena and one of the best player development systems in Russia?

no, i would have it as an 18 team league with promotion and relegation which would allow all the clubs which perform well to be a part of the league, while raising the overall level of play.

i admit i got a bit ahead of myself with that list. but the point is that 27 or 28 teams is too much if the priority is quality of hockey and the overall attractiveness of the league.

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04-29-2013, 06:15 AM
  #31
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no, i would have it as an 18 team league with promotion and relegation which would allow all the clubs which perform well to be a part of the league, while raising the overall level of play.

i admit i got a bit ahead of myself with that list. but the point is that 27 or 28 teams is to much if the priority is quality of hockey and the overall attractiveness of the league.
One of the objectives of the KHL is to grow the game. In order to achieve that the game has to be brought to new cities, to new areas and in some cases to new countries.

This will make the level of play watered down for a while, but if hockey succeeds in these new cities it will eventually benefit the KHL and the sport in general.

For example if Vladivostok is turned into a hockeytown in a decade it was well worth the expand there.

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04-29-2013, 06:20 AM
  #32
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One of the objectives of the KHL is to grow the game. In order to achieve that the game has to be brought to new cities, to new areas and in some cases to new countries.

This will make the level of play watered down for a while, but if hockey succeeds in these new cities it will eventually benefit the KHL and the sport in general.

For example if Vladivostok is turned into a hockeytown in a decade it was well worth the expand there.
is it really necessary to expand the top level to achieve that? what about contracting khl while allowing for new clubs to come up through the promotion/relegation system?

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04-29-2013, 06:31 AM
  #33
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is it really necessary to expand the top level to achieve that?
Yes. The only way to generate interest in hockey in cities such as Vladivostok is to bring a new KHL team there.

If the economic conditions and infrastructure are there the hockey pyramid (the junior and farm teams) can be built later.

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what about contracting khl while allowing for new clubs to come up through the promotion/relegation system?
That is possible if there are existing KHL teams that do not meet the conditions to play in the KHL. But no team should be relegated to the VHL just for the sake of contracting the league. All the teams that are financially capable and meet other conditions should be allowed to play in the KHL.

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04-29-2013, 07:12 AM
  #34
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Yes. The only way to generate interest in hockey in cities such as Vladivostok is to bring a new KHL team there.

If the economic conditions and infrastructure are there the hockey pyramid (the junior and farm teams) can be built later.


That is possible if there are existing KHL teams that do not meet the conditions to play in the KHL. But no team should be relegated to the VHL just for the sake of contracting the league. All the teams that are financially capable and meet other conditions should be allowed to play in the KHL.

the question is how high do you want to set the financial and other conditions? what is the ambition and what is realistic?

i would set them quite low but contract the league on the basis of on-ice performance and leave it open to entry through promotion and relegation based on sporting success. but i guess the russians want to copy the north-american model without considering the differences in sports landscape in north-america and europe.

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04-29-2013, 07:29 AM
  #35
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the question is how high do you want to set the financial and other conditions? what is the ambition and what is realistic?

i would set them quite low but contract the league on the basis of on-ice performance and leave it open to entry through promotion and relegation based on sporting success. but i guess the russians want to copy the north-american model without considering the differences in sports landscape in north-america and europe.
That is not true. Yes, they copy what works in NA, but they are aware of euro/russian enviroment. Look, do you know how sport works in Russia? I dont have time to educate you, try to google.

KHL has conditions - sporting, financial, infrastructure etc. Lets say worst KHL club relegates. What do you do with its players? Who will replace this relegated club? Winner of VHL which has 2-4 players of KHL caliber? Worst KHL russian club has budget of cca 16-20 mil. euro. How many VHL teams have such budget? None IMO. Rubin can be close. Arenas/airports/hotels etc. Does VHL cities have them in KHL level?

KHL is not dveloping league like ALL european leagues inluding Elitserien/SM-Liiga. Like it or not. KHL can not work like these leagues.

Btw, there is ONE, again ONE, club from VHL which has KHL ambitions - Rubin Tyumen. Do you know why they are not in KHL? Because of arena. When they enter KHL, they will be like Vladivostok, money are there. I dont count Lada, it is never ending story.

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04-29-2013, 07:44 AM
  #36
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That is not true. Yes, they copy what works in NA, but they are aware of euro/russian enviroment. Look, do you know how sport works in Russia? I dont have time to educate you, try to google.

KHL has conditions - sporting, financial, infrastructure etc. Lets say worst KHL club relegates. What do you do with its players? Who will replace this relegated club? Winner of VHL which has 2-4 players of KHL caliber? Worst KHL russian club has budget of cca 16-20 mil. euro. How many VHL teams have such budget? None IMO. Rubin can be close. Arenas/airports/hotels etc. Does VHL cities have them in KHL level?

KHL is not dveloping league like ALL european leagues inluding Elitserien/SM-Liiga. Like it or not. KHL can not work like these leagues.

Btw, there is ONE, again ONE, club from VHL which has KHL ambitions - Rubin Tyumen. Do you know why they are not in KHL? Because of arena. When they enter KHL, they will be like Vladivostok, money are there. I dont count Lada, it is never ending story.
there would be more clubs able to handle promotion if the khl had fewer clubs.

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04-29-2013, 07:46 AM
  #37
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Why do we discuss something what wont happen? KHL has its goals, promotion is not among them. End of story.

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04-29-2013, 07:54 AM
  #38
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with or without promotion, 28 teams is far too much if the goal is to have the league of highest quality.

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04-29-2013, 08:13 AM
  #39
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with or without promotion, 28 teams is far too much if the goal is to have the league of highest quality.
You have to make small sacrifices in the level of play to reap benefits in the future.

Let's say there is a 10 year old kid that has a talent level of Evgeni Malkin what was born in Vladivostok. He becomes a fan of the new KHL club and starts to play hockey. At 15 he makes the Vladivostok's MHL club and plays for their KHL team at age 17. Then he will become the #1 center for the Russian national team for a whole decade.

This would not happen without KHL expansion to Vladivostok. The idea of the expansion is to grow the base for hockey and talent pool.

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04-29-2013, 08:46 AM
  #40
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Yes, they are important from an image and point of view, so KHL has them, dont need more.
This is nonsense even by your broad standards. Especially since KHL has more than a few Russian clubs with no market like Vityaz, Yugra, Neftekhimik and maybe even Cherepovets and Novokuznetsk.

Pakovits was on the right trach when he listed low-budget KHL clubs but more important than that is the size of the market team is located in. For example Yakaterinburg could be a great hockey city if the right steps were taken. But these artificial teams in Khanty-Mansyisk and Nizhnekamsk spell trouble if the league grows. Vorky's always bragging about new arenas with more and more seats but here's the question: who would fill 10-15k arena in these cities? Replacing these clubs with the marketable ones will have to happen sooner or later.

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This would not happen without KHL expansion to Vladivostok. The idea of the expansion is to grow the base for hockey and talent pool.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea but same can be done by expanding VHL which, long-term, is probably a right place for the teams in cities of population around 500k and less. I think the sooner Russians will recognize VHL as a good league the better for them.


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04-29-2013, 08:50 AM
  #41
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This is nonsense even by your broad standards. Especially since KHL has more than a few Russian clubs with no market like Vityaz, Yugra, Neftekhimik and maybe even Cherepovets and Novokuznetsk.
And you forgot to add: "which still have bigger budget that any euro club"

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04-29-2013, 05:26 PM
  #42
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I don't know what all you people are talking about but even the aforementioned marginal clubs are only marginal compared to top KHL teams only. Cherepovets was just in the playoffs, and neftekhimik and yugra are constant playoff contenders. And we won't get into the same discussion again about how I think vityaz can easily make the SEL playoffs.

Pakovits, I'm sorry but you sound like your out to lunch. Minimum 8 teams for playoffs per conference makes it 16 in total so you suggesting that by 18 teams pretty much everyone makes the playoffs in a league geographically larger than the NHL(and not lacking in population) and the rest get relegated? That would get messy especially with non Russian teams and at that point it's like the old RSL... Not to mention the playoffs being meaningless; there need to be at least 8 teams in total that don't make it. In the NHL almost half the teams in the conference don't make the playoffs but you don't hear anyone screaming relegation( even just from a sporting perspective). In fact it makes it more interesting.

There are countless obvious reasons why 2nd tier teams have a hard time making the big league and more importantly staying in it aside from even securing funding for 1st tier level while in the farm league to get promoted. A bad run in the khl one year could end up shafting you and screwing you and your new arena/investments for years just like Malmo Redhawks.
May I remind you all that there are many top tier teams in Sweden and Switzerland for example that operate in towns of around 60-70k? And quite successfully. I'm not advocating teams in podolsk or khanti-mansi, but a minimum population of 500k for a successful franchise is nonsense. Hershey averages 10000 viewers annually in the AHL and ambi-piota in the Swiss NLA was in a town of less than 15k !!!!!

I completely fail to see how the competitiveness would increase with a smaller relegation type tournament and to the contrary thing it won't do anything good at all for hockey.

Anybody can figure out that if you disband the KHL and make a 6 team league instead it would become some ultra-allstar league for a little while but in general it doesn't make the sport any healthier.

If they can afford/manage having 28 teams all over the continent it will increase exposure and interest collectively raising the competitiveness of the league over time.

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04-29-2013, 05:34 PM
  #43
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I'm not saying it's a bad idea but same can be done by expanding VHL which, long-term, is probably a right place for the teams in cities of population around 500k and less. I think the sooner Russians will recognize VHL as a good league the better for them.
Whether the population of a KHL city is 500k or 1000k is irrelevant.

Only four things matter:

1. Is there enough money for hockey
2. The quality of the arena
3. How much interest can the team generate in the city
4. Is there enough kids playing hockey within the city to create a talent pool for the KHL team to get players from.

Even a city with less than 100k people can play in the KHL if all these criterias are met.

Of course large cities have more people and thus more money, fans and kids who wish to play hockey, but let's not forget that a small Swedish town of Örnskoldsvik and small Russian town of Voskresensk have both produced more NHL players than Leningrad/St.Petersburgh.

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04-29-2013, 06:22 PM
  #44
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Whether the population of a KHL city is 500k or 1000k is irrelevant.

Only four things matter:

1. Is there enough money for hockey
2. The quality of the arena
3. How much interest can the team generate in the city
4. Is there enough kids playing hockey within the city to create a talent pool for the KHL team to get players from.

Even a city with less than 100k people can play in the KHL if all these criterias are met.
At least 5 Russian teams still wouldn't meet the criteria.

But more importantly, it's.. let's say disputable. Because if these are the criteria there shouldn't be a team in for example Yakaterinburg, which is great, large city with a lot of potential, Pavel Datsyuk and so on.

And I can't see how the forth is important at all.

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04-29-2013, 07:25 PM
  #45
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Pakovits, I'm sorry but you sound like your out to lunch. Minimum 8 teams for playoffs per conference makes it 16 in total so you suggesting that by 18 teams pretty much everyone makes the playoffs in a league geographically larger than the NHL(and not lacking in population) and the rest get relegated? That would get messy especially with non Russian teams and at that point it's like the old RSL... Not to mention the playoffs being meaningless; there need to be at least 8 teams in total that don't make it. In the NHL almost half the teams in the conference don't make the playoffs but you don't hear anyone screaming relegation( even just from a sporting perspective). In fact it makes it more interesting.

who said anything about 16 teams in the play-off. that would be ridiculous. an eight team play-off would be appropriate for an 18 team league.

what's geographical size got to do anything? khl-area is smaller in population than north america, but much more importantly, it's a lot shorter on money, which is crucial.


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May I remind you all that there are many top tier teams in Sweden and Switzerland for example that operate in towns of around 60-70k? And quite successfully. I'm not advocating teams in podolsk or khanti-mansi, but a minimum population of 500k for a successful franchise is nonsense. Hershey averages 10000 viewers annually in the AHL and ambi-piota in the Swiss NLA was in a town of less than 15k !!!!!
i don't care about setting some arbitrary population requirement. anyone who earns it on the ice should have a chance to compete in the top league. but if you want to have a 28 team khl, most of the league won't be any better than the top teams in sweden and switzerland.



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If they can afford/manage having 28 teams all over the continent it will increase exposure and interest collectively raising the competitiveness of the league over time.
the level of exposure in russia would not drop significantly (if at all) if you had a league with 10-12 russian clubs. most of the biggest cities would still have teams. in fact, the concentration of quality would make it a more attractive competition and probably more popular in russia. the clubs that would lose their place in the khl would have the opportunity to play in a competitive league on a decent level with a place in the khl as the prize for winning it.

it would also make the league a lot more attractive for teams and fans outside of russia.

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04-29-2013, 11:06 PM
  #46
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I'm not saying it's a bad idea but same can be done by expanding VHL which, long-term, is probably a right place for the teams in cities of population around 500k and less. I think the sooner Russians will recognize VHL as a good league the better for them.
Got to agree with SoundandFury on this one,exactly my thoughts you really dont need a khl club a VHL club would be just fine in say a city like Vladivastok.

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04-30-2013, 12:11 AM
  #47
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Of course large cities have more people and thus more money, fans and kids who wish to play hockey, but let's not forget that a small Swedish town of Örnskoldsvik and small Russian town of Voskresensk have both produced more NHL players than Leningrad/St.Petersburgh.
Just to clarify, there were more NHL players from the City of Saskatoon than from the entire Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. But will there ever be an NHL team from Saskatoon? I highly doubt it.

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04-30-2013, 05:09 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by metmag View Post
I don't know what all you people are talking about but even the aforementioned marginal clubs are only marginal compared to top KHL teams only. Cherepovets was just in the playoffs, and neftekhimik and yugra are constant playoff contenders. And we won't get into the same discussion again about how I think vityaz can easily make the SEL playoffs.

Pakovits, I'm sorry but you sound like your out to lunch. Minimum 8 teams for playoffs per conference makes it 16 in total so you suggesting that by 18 teams pretty much everyone makes the playoffs in a league geographically larger than the NHL(and not lacking in population) and the rest get relegated? That would get messy especially with non Russian teams and at that point it's like the old RSL... Not to mention the playoffs being meaningless; there need to be at least 8 teams in total that don't make it. In the NHL almost half the teams in the conference don't make the playoffs but you don't hear anyone screaming relegation( even just from a sporting perspective). In fact it makes it more interesting.

There are countless obvious reasons why 2nd tier teams have a hard time making the big league and more importantly staying in it aside from even securing funding for 1st tier level while in the farm league to get promoted. A bad run in the khl one year could end up shafting you and screwing you and your new arena/investments for years just like Malmo Redhawks.
May I remind you all that there are many top tier teams in Sweden and Switzerland for example that operate in towns of around 60-70k? And quite successfully. I'm not advocating teams in podolsk or khanti-mansi, but a minimum population of 500k for a successful franchise is nonsense. Hershey averages 10000 viewers annually in the AHL and ambi-piota in the Swiss NLA was in a town of less than 15k !!!!!

I completely fail to see how the competitiveness would increase with a smaller relegation type tournament and to the contrary thing it won't do anything good at all for hockey.

Anybody can figure out that if you disband the KHL and make a 6 team league instead it would become some ultra-allstar league for a little while but in general it doesn't make the sport any healthier.

If they can afford/manage having 28 teams all over the continent it will increase exposure and interest collectively raising the competitiveness of the league over time.
Ambri and Piotta have a combined number of inhabitants of 1'002 (in december 2011)

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05-21-2013, 11:42 AM
  #49
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NHL was founded in 1917, 96 years of development against 5 years of KHL.

I think the golden ages of KHL will be in 40-50 years from now though...
You cannot compare the prestige of these 2 leagues.

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05-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #50
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Ambri and Piotta have a combined number of inhabitants of 1'002 (in december 2011)
Well, then low population wouldn't be a problem if a kind of Helvetics happened

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