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Old
04-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #51
Heaton
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I don't buy this "injuries are going to happen."

It took an incredible amount of injuries for rookies to the get their shot.

But fortunately, Holland likes to waste roster spots on 37 year olds with recent injury trouble.
Not just injuries, but players would've gotten shots. It's not feasible to think that injuries never would've happened and the Wings never would've called up players for a shot.

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04-28-2013, 03:40 PM
  #52
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Not just injuries, but players would've gotten shots. It's not feasible to think that injuries never would've happened and the Wings never would've called up players for a shot.
It took 3 regulars being out all season, one waiver wiring, + another injury to get guys into the lineup

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04-28-2013, 04:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
It was not a successful season.
Clinching the playoff spot in the final day of the season isn't a success when you've got a healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall and Howard all year long.

Transition from Lidstrom wasn't that hard because we've been transitioning away from Lidstrom for 5 years.

We finished right where most people thought we'd finish.

You think Babcock deserves Jack Adams recognition?

Babcock's indefensible idiocy (Lashoff/Andersson/Cleary) nearly cost this team a playoff spot.
How many games did we lose because of Abby cleary dats line? How about tartar being sent down? He cost us the number four slot.

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04-28-2013, 04:47 PM
  #54
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How many games did we lose because of Abby cleary dats line? How about tartar being sent down? He cost us the number four slot.
That's a pretty impressive skill you have to determine exactly who would have won the games.

I think the team has lacked offensive punch, and Tatar would have helped that aspect, but there's zero guarantee he would have helped actually win more games. The defense first system the Wings are running, while unpopular, worked tremendously well down the stretch and is well-suited for playoff hockey.

The constant assertions that doing X or Y would suddenly change the fates of the team is, at best, tremendously optimistic. At worst, it becomes a steady drone of criticism about the coaching that rears its way into every thread, even those regarding a 22-year-old playoff streak.

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04-28-2013, 07:51 PM
  #55
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How many games did we lose because of Abby cleary dats line? How about tartar being sent down? He cost us the number four slot.
Or Brian ****ING Lashoff on the first pairing...

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04-28-2013, 09:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
It took 3 regulars being out all season, one waiver wiring, + another injury to get guys into the lineup
I'm not disagreeing with that, but it still happened.

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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Or Brian ****ING Lashoff on the first pairing...
Still a red herring argument. Players needed to play better, once they finally did we saw the results. The team had a lack of skill the entire season, the system needed to be tweaked, but we've seen what can happen when we play a system with the talent we have that is without our means. I look forward to next season once our current talent continues to develop and hopefully Holland adds on.

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04-28-2013, 09:47 PM
  #57
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I'm not disagreeing with that, but it still happened.



Still a red herring argument. Players needed to play better, once they finally did we saw the results. The team had a lack of skill the entire season, the system needed to be tweaked, but we've seen what can happen when we play a system with the talent we have that is without our means. I look forward to next season once our current talent continues to develop and hopefully Holland adds on.
Red Herring? Lashoff on first pairing cost us points. End of story.


I expect next season will be more of the same.

The major problem for the Red Wings continues to be this -- Our elite player are on the decline.

It's not a sure thing we have any more elite players in the system.

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04-28-2013, 09:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Red Herring? Lashoff on first pairing cost us points. End of story.


I expect next season will be more of the same.

The major problem for the Red Wings continues to be this -- Our elite player are on the decline.

It's not a sure thing we have any more elite players in the system.
That's not a fact, though. Blaming that one instance is ignoring all other factors of a hockey game. If Howard lets in a soft goal in overtime, that doesn't mean the team didn't have other chances. Great teams find ways to win when things aren't perfect, blaming one thing like a rookie on the 1st pairing as a reason why the team lost games is really short sighted.

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04-29-2013, 01:13 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
You're talking to the guy who has been saying that Red Wings defenses have been over rated for 20 years.

The strength of the Red Wings has been European/Russian style puck possession/very good defensive centers (despite Babcock's best efforts to move away from that).

That's why Chelios has a Norris type year for the first time in 5 years as 39 years old.
That's why Lidstrom has Norris type years into his 40s/
That's why guys like Duchense and Wooley and Murphy continued to fit here until the very end.... And why Schneider looked like an absolute bum as soon as he left.

Name for me a defenseman who played regular minutes in Detroit and then went to a new team and suddenly looked much improved?
I agree about the Wings system where the centers help defence, Fedorov, Yzerman, Datsyuk, Z all won Selke. No doubt about it.

Much improved Dmen? Aaron Word and Quincey are the 2 I can name. I do not remember many others.
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Red Herring? Lashoff on first pairing cost us points. End of story.


I expect next season will be more of the same.

The major problem for the Red Wings continues to be this -- Our elite player are on the decline.

It's not a sure thing we have any more elite players in the system.
We might have some good prospects, but as you say we have none elite prospect. The only one might be DD.

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04-29-2013, 01:25 AM
  #60
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That's not a fact, though. Blaming that one instance is ignoring all other factors of a hockey game. If Howard lets in a soft goal in overtime, that doesn't mean the team didn't have other chances. Great teams find ways to win when things aren't perfect, blaming one thing like a rookie on the 1st pairing as a reason why the team lost games is really short sighted.
Makes. No. Sense.

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04-29-2013, 01:26 AM
  #61
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I agree about the Wings system where the centers help defence, Fedorov, Yzerman, Datsyuk, Z all won Selke. No doubt about it.

Much improved Dmen? Aaron Word and Quincey are the 2 I can name. I do not remember many others.

We might have some good prospects, but as you say we have none elite prospect. The only one might be DD.
And Ward wasn't really much better than he was here.

KQ never really even played here.

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04-29-2013, 10:38 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Red Herring? Lashoff on first pairing cost us points. End of story.


I expect next season will be more of the same.

The major problem for the Red Wings continues to be this -- Our elite player are on the decline.

It's not a sure thing we have any more elite players in the system.
How are our elite players declining? 13 and 40 both where ppg and solid 2 way centers. Both counting their time overseas in the lockout played the equivilent of full seasons.

Howard is the main reason we are not a lottery team this year. Kronwall while I admit needs a dependable 1st line def d mate did ok for playing out of position. Franzen stepped up and produced pretty good this year given that he wasn't always attached to either 13 or 40 all year.

Don't get me wrong we as a team still have our faults but all considered the year could have been quite a bit worse. I have had faults with babs "realgud" lineup decisions. But for whatever reason it seems like our team is heating up at the perfect time.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the possible no franchise types in the system. We have maybe 2-4 atm that I hope turn out to be 1st/2nd pairing d men or top 6 centers. But we still develope our players well. The true test to me will be when/if nill leaves to see if we can still draft well.

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04-29-2013, 10:59 AM
  #63
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How are our elite players declining? 13 and 40 both where ppg and solid 2 way centers. Both counting their time overseas in the lockout played the equivilent of full seasons.

Howard is the main reason we are not a lottery team this year. Kronwall while I admit needs a dependable 1st line def d mate did ok for playing out of position. Franzen stepped up and produced pretty good this year given that he wasn't always attached to either 13 or 40 all year.

Don't get me wrong we as a team still have our faults but all considered the year could have been quite a bit worse. I have had faults with babs "realgud" lineup decisions. But for whatever reason it seems like our team is heating up at the perfect time.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the possible no franchise types in the system. We have maybe 2-4 atm that I hope turn out to be 1st/2nd pairing d men or top 6 centers. But we still develope our players well. The true test to me will be when/if nill leaves to see if we can still draft well.
No doubt this year could have been worse. especially if one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg was hurt.

But Datsyuk and Zetterberg are on the wrong side of 30. Datsyuk has already lost some explosiveness in his skating at 34.
Zetterberg was never fast to begin with, but he used to be fast enough to beat guys on the outsite with that little backhand-forehand move'
Still great players, but these guys are absolutely past their prime.

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04-29-2013, 11:04 AM
  #64
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No doubt this year could have been worse. especially if one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg was hurt.

But Datsyuk and Zetterberg are on the wrong side of 30. Datsyuk has already lost some explosiveness in his skating at 34.
Zetterberg was never fast to begin with, but he used to be fast enough to beat guys on the outsite with that little backhand-forehand move'
Still great players, but these guys are absolutely past their prime.
Is Martin St. Louis past his prime at age 38 winning his second Art Ross?

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04-29-2013, 11:08 AM
  #65
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Still great players, but these guys are absolutely past their prime.
Lidstrom was past his prime in 08, St. Louis just won the Art Ross.

Prime is something very subjective, and I don't think you can make a case that Zetterberg/Datsyuk hit a point a while ago where they're just getting worse and worse. It goes up and down, and I think both of them had very good seasons. The difference is in the general depth of the team, obviously that affects the few star players that we have.

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04-29-2013, 12:10 PM
  #66
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Congrats on pulling off a strong finish. Glad the Wings made and kept the streak going, any accomplishments in the playoffs is just gravy coming from this roster. Their play down the stretch run is something to be proud of.

Hopefully, this doesn't further goad Holland into thinking there is many redeeming qualities about the makeup of this roster.

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04-29-2013, 01:54 PM
  #67
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Lidstrom was past his prime in 08, St. Louis just won the Art Ross.

Prime is something very subjective, and I don't think you can make a case that Zetterberg/Datsyuk hit a point a while ago where they're just getting worse and worse. It goes up and down, and I think both of them had very good seasons. The difference is in the general depth of the team, obviously that affects the few star players that we have.
Lidstrom doesn't win a cup in 08 if Zetterberg and Datsyuk aren't elite players in their prime.
Prime isn't all that subjective.

All you need to do is look at the stats. There's a pretty serious trend line that's well established

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04-29-2013, 01:55 PM
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Is Martin St. Louis past his prime at age 38 winning his second Art Ross?
Yes.

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04-29-2013, 03:27 PM
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All you need to do is look at the stats. There's a pretty serious trend line that's well established
I for one don't *purely* look at the stats, sure, both have declined in strict points since 2008, especially Datsyuk, but you gotta remember that both these guys are pulling a heavier load these days, and on a less skilled team. Did Z and Dats have a much better team around them in 2008? They certainly did. Do you score more points on a better team? Almost always, yes - it's a team game. Zetterberg is now the captain and he plays a dominant role in all parts of our game, boxplay, even strength, powerplay.

I know you never said they were trash players, I just think it's a bit unfair to say they're past their prime in a significant way.

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04-29-2013, 03:56 PM
  #70
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Lidstrom doesn't win a cup in 08 if Zetterberg and Datsyuk aren't elite players in their prime.
Prime isn't all that subjective.

All you need to do is look at the stats. There's a pretty serious trend line that's well established
And Datsyuk/Z don't win a cup in '08 without a past his prime Lidstrom.

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Yes.
Makes. No. Sense.

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04-29-2013, 04:00 PM
  #71
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And Ward wasn't really much better than he was here.

KQ never really even played here.
Ward was #7 with us, top 4 with Canes.
Quincey could not break into the lineup with the Wings, and was a top Dman with the Kings.
And there were not many Dmen I can come up with anyhow.
Dandenault.

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04-29-2013, 05:13 PM
  #72
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I for one don't *purely* look at the stats, sure, both have declined in strict points since 2008, especially Datsyuk, but you gotta remember that both these guys are pulling a heavier load these days, and on a less skilled team. Did Z and Dats have a much better team around them in 2008? They certainly did. Do you score more points on a better team? Almost always, yes - it's a team game. Zetterberg is now the captain and he plays a dominant role in all parts of our game, boxplay, even strength, powerplay.

I know you never said they were trash players, I just think it's a bit unfair to say they're past their prime in a significant way.
Jesus.
You don't need stats to know that Zetterberg isn't as good as he was 5 years ago.

It's plain as day to anyone who watched games then and watched games now.

The Wings have almost always had world class players in key positions over the last 20+ years.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk took the reigns from Yzerman and Fedorov better than anyone could have imagined.

Still, both those guys played with Yzerman and Fedorov. So if the next ones to take the baton are in the organization, it's time to show themselves.

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04-29-2013, 05:18 PM
  #73
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Ward was #7 with us, top 4 with Canes.
Quincey could not break into the lineup with the Wings, and was a top Dman with the Kings.
And there were not many Dmen I can come up with anyhow.
Dandenault.
Dandenault sucked in Montreal.
Quincey never played here, so you can't say he went somewhere and showed he was better. Because he never showed anything here.

The point is to say-- the Wings defense is made to look better by our two-way centers and Selke caliber forwards, plus a puck possession and defensively responsible system preached since the Bowman days

That allows defensemen to look a lot better than they might on other teams.

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04-29-2013, 05:26 PM
  #74
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And Datsyuk/Z don't win a cup in '08 without a past his prime Lidstrom.
Well duh.

The point is, if you actually bothered to think about it instead of trying to be clever... that it took Datsyuk and Zetterberg hitting their prime to get us to the cup finals.

Those 3 years 07 to 09, were their zenith in a Wings uniform.
And we've declined ever since.
Datsyuk 87-97-97 (*best scoring years)
Zetterberg 68(63 games)-92(career high)-73

Quote:
Makes. No. Sense.
Martin St Louis is past his prime. If that Makes No Sense to you, not much I can do to help you.
Good for him that he's getting lots of assists on Stamkos' goals as they finished second last in the east.

While still a good player, he's not as good as he once was.

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04-29-2013, 05:43 PM
  #75
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Well duh.

The point is, if you actually bothered to think about it instead of trying to be clever... that it took Datsyuk and Zetterberg hitting their prime to get us to the cup finals.

Those 3 years 07 to 09, were their zenith in a Wings uniform.
And we've declined ever since.
Datsyuk 87-97-97 (*best scoring years)
Zetterberg 68(63 games)-92(career high)-73
The decline of the Wings has nothing to do with Datsyuk and Z.

Quote:
Martin St Louis is past his prime. If that Makes No Sense to you, not much I can do to help you.
Good for him that he's getting lots of assists on Stamkos' goals as they finished second last in the east.

While still a good player, he's not as good as he once was.
Yeah, anyone who played with Stamkos would've won the Art Ross. St. Louis did something no one has ever done in the history of the league (win the Art Ross at his age and win the art ross two times in the span that he did). St. Louis did something that no Wing has done since Fedorov.

If St. Louis isn't as good as he used to be, I don't know what St. Louis you were watching.

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