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Interesting goalie numbers...

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Old
12-28-2003, 09:06 PM
  #26
Ajacied
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
It would do you good to actually watch him play a game or two as opposed to just reading off the stat sheet. He could have a .900 save percentage and still be a great goalie just by the sheer fact that he wins more than any other goaltender, and wins when it really matters.
I couldn't care less. I don't consider wins or winning in general a goalie statistic. Its a team game, you play together in order to win, the goalie certainly helps but he isn't the sole reason. I find that rather hilarious why they consider things like that for netminders anyhow.

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Old
12-28-2003, 09:47 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
I couldn't care less. I don't consider wins or winning in general a goalie statistic. Its a team game, you play together in order to win, the goalie certainly helps but he isn't the sole reason. I find that rather hilarious why they consider things like that for netminders anyhow.
You can argue that every stat in hockey is a team stat. The points a skater gets in his career are heavily dependant on the players who played with him. The goals against and save percentage of a goalie is dependant on the skaters playing in front of him. Hockey is a team sport and a players overall individual success depends on his teammates. In the NHL today goaltender is the most important position and the teams that win the most tend to get the best play from their goalies. Why is Patrick Roy seen as the best goalie ever? Not because of his "stats"(Hasek has better stats) but because he has won more then anyone ever.

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Old
12-28-2003, 09:55 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings9
Brodeur is a good goalie, but his numbers are misleading big time. He is not close as good goalie as his numbers look like.
But how would you know? After all, you don't watch "boring" teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings9
The Devils just won the cup and are playing very well, but nevertheless the attendance at their games is terrible. There are just few teams in the league which struggle as much as the Devils to get the fans to watch their games.
And that has as much to do with Martin Brodeur's proficiency as a goalie as does the price of tea in China. Can you say "non-sequetor"? Bruins have a better attendance record than the Devils. Guess that makes Felix Potvin a superior goalie. :p

***

One can see it now. The year is 2010. The Devils have just won Cup #6 with the 36 y/o Brodeur in net. He now has four Vezinas, and two Conn Smyths to go along with two Olympic Gold Medals, five Jennings, etc.

Yet there will still be some arguing on HF for Tomas Vokoun as the better goalie, based on his "individual stats" of GAA and Sv% being more impressive during the regular season (While the Preds still are looking for their first-ever playoff birth)!


Last edited by Trottier: 12-28-2003 at 10:10 PM.
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Old
12-28-2003, 10:26 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
I couldn't care less. I don't consider wins or winning in general a goalie statistic. Its a team game, you play together in order to win, the goalie certainly helps but he isn't the sole reason. I find that rather hilarious why they consider things like that for netminders anyhow.
Then I guess Roy shouldn't be praised for his 500 win career? And Sawchuk shouldn't be praised for his shut out records too, after all that is a team effort also.

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Old
12-29-2003, 04:01 AM
  #30
Daryl Shilling
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Winning percentage isn't a very good way to try and see who the best goalies are. It could be that a very good goalie gets alot of wins, and it can also be that a very good goaltender does *not* get alot of wins. The amount of goals that a team scores correlate as well to winning percentage as a goalie's save percentage does:

Correlation to Winning Percentage:
GF to W%: 0.540
SV% to W%: 0.534

A team's offensive skill correlates as highly to the team's winning chances as the goaltender's ability does. A goaltender can be terrific, stop a huge number of shots that he faces, but if his teams doesn't score, he can't win. Also, it certainly isn't HIS fault that he can't go and score a goal in a 1-0 shutout game, thus avoiding a loss.

As an aid for viewing win/oss record, I wrote an essay called Cheap Wins and Tough Losses, for anybody that may be interested:
http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/

Daryl

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Old
12-29-2003, 09:17 AM
  #31
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Will simply submit that statistics period do not tell the story of a goalie.

I'll take the netminder who makes two great stops late in a game to preserve a 4-3 win (facing only 20 SOG total) over a goalie who stopped 45 shots on the other end of the ice but lost.

The stats don't tell that story.

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Old
12-29-2003, 09:35 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by PecaFan
I think that's the same set of numbers going around last year. I still don't trust them. Every other analysis (including the two above) shows that there are goalies with high save percentages that face low numbers of shots, and high numbers of shots, and the same for goalies with low save percentages. At best a very small correlation.
PM your email address and I'll be glad to send you the spreadsheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Offhand, I'd guess the reason would be the natural self selection of poor goaltending performances into the lower categories. Any goalie who stinks up the joint on any given night (like say 3 goals on the first 6-10 shots) will usually find themself opening the bench door for the second and third periods. Voila, a low save percentage game in a low shot game. But it wasn't the low shots that led to the low save percentage, yet that's the conclusion drawn.
Nope. I didn't want those games to skew the stats so I didn't include them unless the goaltender played 55+ minutes.

 
Old
12-29-2003, 10:25 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Will simply submit that statistics period do not tell the story of a goalie.

I'll take the netminder who makes two great stops late in a game to preserve a 4-3 win (facing only 20 SOG total) over a goalie who stopped 45 shots on the other end of the ice but lost.

The stats don't tell that story.
I certainly wouldn't..

Winning is the last stat I will connect to a goalie's credit. I'd rather have a stunning netminder who stops all but one of the 50 shots and loses, then a netminder that surrenders 5 on 12 shots in a 6-5 win. I'm blame someone else for the actual outcome of the game, namely the entire team in general.

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12-29-2003, 02:48 PM
  #34
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Something that's interesting to note is how the average shots/game has declined over the last 20 years. I don't have the numbers with me, but in the late 80s and early 90s there were about 68 shots on goal per game. Last year it was something like 56. The point is, teams are shooting less now than they used to. Why this is can be debated ad nauseum, but it's interesting to note there's a decent correlation between SOG/game and goals/game over those last 20 years.

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Old
12-29-2003, 02:55 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
I certainly wouldn't..

Winning is the last stat I will connect to a goalie's credit. I'd rather have a stunning netminder who stops all but one of the 50 shots and loses, then a netminder that surrenders 5 on 12 shots in a 6-5 win. I'm blame someone else for the actual outcome of the game, namely the entire team in general.
The two points are not mutally exclusive, but regardless...what we are saying, essentially is that you desire a goalie who takes home the Vezina Trophy. I place more emphasis on one who takes home the Stanley Cup.

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Old
12-29-2003, 09:16 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
Cechmanek .404 27
Dipietro .399 29
Lalime .392 26
Turco .391 20
Brodeur .390 4
You look at the goalies facing around the same amounts of shots as Brodeur and their Save Percentage rank. These stats just strengthen Brodeur's credibility. 4 quality netminders are not even close to him. He is heads and shoulders the best goalie in the league.

And with winning no one discredits Wayne Gretzky's numbers because he played with the great Edmonton team in the 80's. Gretzky made his team better just as Brodeur does. Now don't flame me because I'm comparing the two. But If Brodeur's consistency holds up he is going to shatter every record there is for goaltenders as Gretzky did for forwards.

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Old
12-29-2003, 09:29 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon84
You look at the goalies facing around the same amounts of shots as Brodeur and their Save Percentage rank. These stats just strengthen Brodeur's credibility. 4 quality netminders are not even close to him. He is heads and shoulders the best goalie in the league.

And with winning no one discredits Wayne Gretzky's numbers because he played with the great Edmonton team in the 80's. Gretzky made his team better just as Brodeur does. Now don't flame me because I'm comparing the two. But If Brodeur's consistency holds up he is going to shatter every record there is for goaltenders as Gretzky did for forwards.
Naw people still try to discredit Gretzky.

But really this thread just proves even more to me that goalie stats are completely irrelevant, they can manipulated to favour anyone they want. Therefore goalies should only be judged by what you watch on the ice IMO.

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Old
12-30-2003, 02:21 PM
  #38
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Or another question would be:

Would you take Brodeur before pretty much anyone else in your draft to build your best team?

He has proved he is one, if not the best with a defensive team, and god I would love to see brodeur with a strong forchecking team like Vancouver.

Brodeur is the best goalie to clear out the zone and to lauch a lightning fast pass to attackers. Personally I would like to see all goalies powerring the attack like Brodeur do so well. No more boring lag behind the net..

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Old
12-31-2003, 07:22 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meehan
Again, Brodeur's greatness is not about "numbers". It's about winning. No one would care that Brodeur has 72 career shutouts if he didn't have 3 Stanley Cup Championships.
I agree. Brodeur's a winner when it matters. Though the fact that Schwab has a .50 GAA makes me wonder whether the NJ D up front is inflating his numbers a tad...

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Old
12-31-2003, 07:29 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saa25
I agree. Brodeur's a winner when it matters. Though the fact that Schwab has a .50 GAA makes me wonder whether the NJ D up front is inflating his numbers a tad...
I don't know, Schwab is a pretty good backup. I remember there was a year in Toronto when Cujo went down and Schwab did well and kept the leafs in the race. Obviously, the Devils commitment to defense helps make goalie GAA numbers look better; but it's a double-edged sword as them keeping the shots down also lowers Brodeur's save percentage. He hasn't had too many years with very high save percentages so that does hurt his "reputation". I think the way the wild or ducks play is the best way to make goalies look good. They give up a ton of shots but keep them to the outside and do a good job clearing the rebounds. Thus their goalies numbers become inflated as they technically see alot of shots, but not high quality ones.

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Old
12-31-2003, 07:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justicex

He has proved he is one, if not the best with a defensive team, and god I would love to see brodeur with a strong forchecking team like Vancouver.
The Devils actually do have a pretty strong forechecking presence most nights with a healthy John Madden in the lineup. It would be a lot more aggressive with Langenbrunner in there though.

 
Old
12-31-2003, 07:53 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meehan
I don't know, Schwab is a pretty good backup. I remember there was a year in Toronto when Cujo went down and Schwab did well and kept the leafs in the race. Obviously, the Devils commitment to defense helps make goalie GAA numbers look better; but it's a double-edged sword as them keeping the shots down also lowers Brodeur's save percentage. He hasn't had too many years with very high save percentages so that does hurt his "reputation". I think the way the wild or ducks play is the best way to make goalies look good. They give up a ton of shots but keep them to the outside and do a good job clearing the rebounds. Thus their goalies numbers become inflated as they technically see alot of shots, but not high quality ones.
Good point. I revise my opinion accordingly.

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