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Blues v. Kings Comprehensive Preview/Prediction

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Old
04-30-2013, 10:12 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
And the majority of that came from one unreal run. I'm not trying to detract from Doughty's play in the playoffs last year, but he hasn't been nearly consistent enough in the regular season to justify saying you build a team around him and not Pietro. Pietro's greatest asset last year was that he played the best defense in the NHL while putting up a PPG for half the season. A great deal of the Blues' second place finish can be attributed to just how spectacular he was last season, and it even showed in how the team simply crumbled when he went down. Make no mistake, these St. Louis Blues are built around Alex Pietrangelo, and coming on to these boards and saying he's not a #1 defenseman yet is an absurd statement.
I put a lot more weight on Hitch's coaching and the blues system than Pietra being THE shut-down dman for the Blues last year. dont get me wrong, Pietra had an unreal season but Doughty has been doing this since juniors...

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04-30-2013, 10:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I put a lot more weight on Hitch's coaching and the blues system than Pietra being THE shut-down dman for the Blues last year. dont get me wrong, Pietra had an unreal season but Doughty has been doing this since juniors...
And the past 2 seasons has he's been out-produced by Petro. You have some clear bias, but I can't lay my finger on why.

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04-30-2013, 10:29 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I put a lot more weight on Hitch's coaching and the blues system than Pietra being THE shut-down dman for the Blues last year. dont get me wrong, Pietra had an unreal season but Doughty has been doing this since juniors...
Has Pietro not? Pietro also outperformed Doughty in his rookie season (and first 11 or so games last season) under Davis Payne. Hitch's system is good, but without Pietro playing like he did, this team doesn't come close to sniffing the Central crown, and whether they even make the playoffs would be uncertain. It even showed this year. He struggled during the middle portion of the season, and the team did as well. They were scoring plenty, but Pietro was getting caught rushing the puck, giving up quality opportunities while the goaltending was also struggling, and the Blues had to go 11-3 at the end of the season to get home ice.

Doughty's biggest advantage over Pietro is that he was in the league earlier, but other than his absolutely stellar sophomore campaign, his good Olympics, and his playoffs last season, he has been remarkably average. He's not been on the Norris radar since that season, and while he was fantastic in those playoffs last season, he didn't back it up with a dominant season this year, he was simply a good #1 defenseman. I don't think anyone doubts Doughty's potential to play like the best defenseman in the NHL, most question his ability to do it consistently over a full year. Pietrangelo has shown that he can do it over a full year, the question is if he can return there after a fully healthy offseason and training camp.

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04-30-2013, 10:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
Has Pietro not? Pietro also outperformed Doughty in his rookie season (and first 11 or so games last season) under Davis Payne. Hitch's system is good, but without Pietro playing like he did, this team doesn't come close to sniffing the Central crown, and whether they even make the playoffs would be uncertain. It even showed this year. He struggled during the middle portion of the season, and the team did as well. They were scoring plenty, but Pietro was getting caught rushing the puck, giving up quality opportunities while the goaltending was also struggling, and the Blues had to go 11-3 at the end of the season to get home ice.

Doughty's biggest advantage over Pietro is that he was in the league earlier, but other than his absolutely stellar sophomore campaign, his good Olympics, and his playoffs last season, he has been remarkably average. He's not been on the Norris radar since that season, and while he was fantastic in those playoffs last season, he didn't back it up with a dominant season this year, he was simply a good #1 defenseman. I don't think anyone doubts Doughty's potential to play like the best defenseman in the NHL, most question his ability to do it consistently over a full year. Pietrangelo has shown that he can do it over a full year, the question is if he can return there after a fully healthy offseason and training camp.
Stats wise (on offensive) Pietra has the advantage. w.o being able to rely on some updated advanced stats, im still sticking with my assertion Doughty is the better overall player than Pietra. Im not trying to take anything away from Pietra, I think he is a #1 dman on any team..but Doughty is just slightly better..just slightly and thats why i gave the Blues the overall advantage on D.

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04-30-2013, 10:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
Stats wise (on offensive) Pietra has the advantage. w.o being able to rely on some updated advanced stats, im still sticking with my assertion Doughty is the better overall player than Pietra. Im not trying to take anything away from Pietra, I think he is a #1 dman on any team..but Doughty is just slightly better..just slightly and thats why i gave the Blues the overall advantage on D.
This is an acceptable answer, but some of the things you've posted in this thread regarding this topic are very ill-informed (namely your JBo is second to Doughty for defensemen in this series and Pietro is not a #1 yet). It says that perhaps you haven't really watched Pietro enough to form a fully informed opinion. Blues fans are generally pretty well versed in this debate (As Doughty was inserted into the discussion after Karlsson vs Pietrangelo going on all year), and have seen plenty of Doughty at his best and worst.

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04-30-2013, 11:08 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
Stats wise (on offensive) Pietra has the advantage. w.o being able to rely on some updated advanced stats, im still sticking with my assertion Doughty is the better overall player than Pietra. Im not trying to take anything away from Pietra, I think he is a #1 dman on any team..but Doughty is just slightly better..just slightly and thats why i gave the Blues the overall advantage on D.
What's the best game you've ever seen Petro play? I've said it (more than) once, and I'll say it again...Doughty has had a better supporting cast his entire career.

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04-30-2013, 11:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
What's the best game you've ever seen Petro play? I've said it (more than) once, and I'll say it again...Doughty has had a better supporting cast his entire career.
Now that is a fair statement and one I personally havent been able to correlate with stats. Unfortunately, the advanced stats site I use wasn't updated enough to really compare Jbouw, Doughty, Pietra. To put things in better perspective, I did not watch much of Pietra last year, only heard his name every other day in the news LOL. its a close debate, but ill stick with Doughty if I were to start a team. Opinions on that matter are sure to differ.

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04-30-2013, 11:26 AM
  #58
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How can you expect any respect to be given to your opinions if you admit you didn't even watch the other guy? That's weak, dude.

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04-30-2013, 12:08 PM
  #59
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Good read from the Hockey Writers. Hitch would be crazy to sit anyone on the red hot 4 line right now and agree that the struggling rookie Tarasenko sits.

If and that's a big IF, the Blues can score 1st that's the Blues best chance to get over the psychological barrier the Kings have over the Blues, then there is a decent chance of winning this series. However...

I still will believe it when I see it, the Blues winning this series, and will stick to the Kings winning this series in 6 games, Goaltending will be the difference.

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04-30-2013, 12:17 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
How can you expect any respect to be given to your opinions if you admit you didn't even watch the other guy? That's weak, dude.
I didn't say that, I said I didn't watch him much last year. Not that i've never seen the guy play and I've watched all of this year. I base my findings on evaluation of ability and stats, not just the stats. I've watched enough of his games to have a firm evaluation: but hey, more games may sway my opinion but for now it doesn't

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04-30-2013, 12:25 PM
  #61
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Hi Kings fan here.

Just came by to officially apologize to any of the Blues fans who came over to our board to chat. I invite you back to read my responses. I absolutely thought we were just having fun and while nobody seemed to take any offence I wanted to make certain that you guys knew my intentions were just fun.

That said I will tell you what most Kings fans think of this series.

We know that you guys have improved a ton and are playing lights out hockey on most nights. We also know that you guys are ready to go and are at least equal to us in most positions and possibly better than us at others, possibly.

We have to see Elliot stand up to us for an entire series before we will buy into his finally having become the goalie that we were told he was last season (and part of this one).

Most of us long term fans know that at best this is a toss up and that you guys are going to bring every bit of it.

Here is to a great series and may the best team win.

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04-30-2013, 12:29 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I didn't say that, I said I didn't watch him much last year. Not that i've never seen the guy play and I've watched all of this year. I base my findings on evaluation of ability and stats, not just the stats. I've watched enough of his games to have a firm evaluation: but hey, more games may sway my opinion but for now it doesn't
So shouldn't you preface everything you say? Something like...Hey, I like Doughty more than Pietrangelo because I didn't watch him when he was at his best, but I did see Doughty when he was at his...Even though it was for a shorter period of time.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't see why I should put that bias to the side and take your argument for what you think it is.

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04-30-2013, 12:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
So shouldn't you preface everything you say? Something like...Hey, I like Doughty more than Pietrangelo because I didn't watch him when he was at his best, but I did see Doughty when he was at his...Even though it was for a shorter period of time.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't see how I should put that bias to the side and take your argument for what it is.
I didn't say I didn't watch him, I said i didn't watch him MUCH. like i've been trying to say, i've seen enough of both and have done enough research to know that Doughty is the better player. And you aren't being mean, this is a great hockey debate im having a lot of fun.

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04-30-2013, 12:37 PM
  #64
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On the Doughty A Pie thing if I can jump in....


Pie has elements to his game that DD will never posses. He may think he does, but he doesn't. A Pie (if there is a better nickname let me know so I don't offend) can play with a pretty good mean streak when he wants where DD is more of a pick and choose type when it comes to physical play.

If that sounds like a compliment at all to DD that isn't what I am saying. DD does throw the occasional big hit but it is more of an anomaly then a part of his game. A Pie is a player that you have to keep your head up when he is around because he uses physical play as part of his arsenal.

DD to me is a superior rover who just this season has shown the ability to play a solid stay at home game where I see A Pie as being a solid if not elite Dman in every area of play but less creative when it comes to open offence.

Both have their strengths and both are elite talents. I like DD but that is based on his dominance in JR's more than anything. He was the player that I never thought would become a King so having him on my team is a great thing to me.

That said I think that A Pie and DD are both amazing young Dmen and you can't go wrong with either of them. In 3 years they will be the top two Dmen in the game and with Karlsson playing we have 3 of the best young Dmen to come along in a long time.

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04-30-2013, 12:38 PM
  #65
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BBSuns, your opinion of Pietro is bizarre...and nowhere more obvious than that you seem to rate JBouw over Pietro. They've been skating side by side for a month now....we've all been watching it.

I think this series will provide a great opportunity to see all 3 of these great defensemen together (with Doughty) and maybe you'll start to understand why Blues fans (and most of the fans of Central Division teams who see a lot of him) rate Pietro so highly.

You ignore the Norris consideration. Its not like its just biased Blues fans that like him....he's appreciated by the pro scouts league-wide. And I would go so far as to say this has been his weakest season, at least significantly a step down from last year.

The hallmark of a great player is the ability to elevate his game when the stakes are higher. There are opportunities for all 3 of these guys to do so. We'll see starting in a little under 7 hours.

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04-30-2013, 12:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I didn't say I didn't watch him, I said i didn't watch him MUCH. like i've been trying to say, i've seen enough of both and have done enough research to know that Doughty is the better player. And you aren't being mean, this is a great hockey debate im having a lot of fun.
Just making sure because I can see how some of my posts can be read in a way that I don't intend them to be read. I got the whole "much" thing, which tells me that there's an over exposure bias toward Doughty. It is what it is. I base my evaluation of Pietrangelo being better on the fact that he's been better throughout the seasons with much less support and his peak was absolutely phenomenal. Go back and watch "the game" against San Jose. That was Petro's Ninth Symphony, so far.

Edit: And there could (and likely is) bias on my behalf as well. In which case, we agree that both have okay at best arguments because of bias. Agree to disagree, good effort on the write-up.


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04-30-2013, 01:03 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by CarvinSigX View Post
Just making sure because I can see how some of my posts can be read in a way that I don't intend them to be read. I got the whole "much" thing, which tells me that there's an over exposure bias toward Doughty. It is what it is. I base my evaluation of Pietrangelo being better on the fact that he's been better throughout the seasons with much less support and his peak was absolutely phenomenal. Go back and watch "the game" against San Jose. That was Petro's Ninth Symphony, so far.

Edit: And there could (and likely is) bias on my behalf as well. In which case, we agree that both have okay at best arguments because of bias. Agree to disagree, good effort on the write-up.
Well put and exactly what I meant. And thanks for reading BTW!

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04-30-2013, 01:06 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
BBSuns, your opinion of Pietro is bizarre...and nowhere more obvious than that you seem to rate JBouw over Pietro. They've been skating side by side for a month now....we've all been watching it.

I think this series will provide a great opportunity to see all 3 of these great defensemen together (with Doughty) and maybe you'll start to understand why Blues fans (and most of the fans of Central Division teams who see a lot of him) rate Pietro so highly.

You ignore the Norris consideration. Its not like its just biased Blues fans that like him....he's appreciated by the pro scouts league-wide. And I would go so far as to say this has been his weakest season, at least significantly a step down from last year.

The hallmark of a great player is the ability to elevate his game when the stakes are higher. There are opportunities for all 3 of these guys to do so. We'll see starting in a little under 7 hours.
I didn't ignore his Norris consideration and there are some people who rate Jbouw extremely high in terms of NHL defensemen and Im one of them...him playing on the Panthers and Flames his entire career has really cast a shadow over his coverage IMO. Pietra and Jbouw are 1 and 1a; Pietra def gets the edge because of his dominant season last year, but Jbouw isn't far behind...considered one of the best skaters in the world actually.

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04-30-2013, 01:15 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I didn't ignore his Norris consideration and there are some people who rate Jbouw extremely high in terms of NHL defensemen and Im one of them...him playing on the Panthers and Flames his entire career has really cast a shadow over his coverage IMO. Pietra and Jbouw are 1 and 1a; Pietra def gets the edge because of his dominant season last year, but Jbouw isn't far behind...considered one of the best skaters in the world actually.
Its "Pietro." "Pietra" is a feminine form of his name that nobody uses.


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04-30-2013, 01:17 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by BBSuns View Post
I didn't ignore his Norris consideration and there are some people who rate Jbouw extremely high in terms of NHL defensemen and Im one of them...him playing on the Panthers and Flames his entire career has really cast a shadow over his coverage IMO. Pietra and Jbouw are 1 and 1a; Pietra def gets the edge because of his dominant season last year, but Jbouw isn't far behind...considered one of the best skaters in the world actually.
I know that's right! That boy can skate!!

I read your post. I thought it was good. I do consider Pie a better all around defenseman the Doughty. Doughty probably does edge out Pie in the offense department as far as being creative. I have seen pie be very creative, I think he has had to take more of a defensive role this year. I think putting Bouwmeester with him will free them both up to be more creative. If I have to look over at a partner to save my hind end while trying to do some offense, I have to say looking at either of those two would really bolster my idea of getting creative.

I also think like you Bouwmeester is a world class defenseman and I think him and Pietrangelo play a different style and bring two different things, but both are world class in what they bring in their own way. They also compliment eachother as they are working for the same thing, just in slightly different styles. J-Bo is something with his skating, he is creative, but I think Pie is more creative overall. Together they are dynamite.

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04-30-2013, 01:29 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
Its "Pietro." "Pietra" is a feminine form of his name that nobody uses.
lol his name is Pietrangelo...so Pietra for short.


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04-30-2013, 01:34 PM
  #72
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lol his name is Pietrangelo...so Pietra for short.
You didn't notice you're the only one spelling it that way? Do you listen to how the players pronounce it? Its a long O sound at the end. "Pietra" is a feminine nickname with the "a" sound at the end.

But go ahead. Its just one more way you're underscoring a lack of familiarity with the guy you're supposedly critiquing. That or you're being deliberately obstinate. I doubt the latter, but I'm starting to wonder based on your responses.


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04-30-2013, 01:36 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
Its "Pietro." "Pietra" is a feminine form of his name that nobody uses.
Lol. Pietra would be woman who showed up at your hotel door in Vegas if you ordered a Russian call girl.


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04-30-2013, 01:38 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
You didn't notice you're the only one spelling it that way? Do you listen to how the players pronounce it? Its a long O sound at the end. "Pietra" is a feminine nickname with the "a" sound at the end.

But go ahead. Its just one more way you're underscoring a lack of familiarity with the guy you're supposedly critiquing. That or you're being deliberately obstinate. I doubt the latter, but I'm starting to wonder based on your responses.
Because I'm shortening the spelling of his name? Ok.


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04-30-2013, 01:41 PM
  #75
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On the Doughty A Pie thing if I can jump in....

Pie has elements to his game that DD will never posses. He may think he does, but he doesn't. A Pie (if there is a better nickname let me know so I don't offend) can play with a pretty good mean streak when he wants where DD is more of a pick and choose type when it comes to physical play.

If that sounds like a compliment at all to DD that isn't what I am saying. DD does throw the occasional big hit but it is more of an anomaly then a part of his game. A Pie is a player that you have to keep your head up when he is around because he uses physical play as part of his arsenal
One of the more inaccurate assessments of Petro's game that I've ever read but you seem like a swell guy so all's forgiven.

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