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12/13 Draft Thread: Currently picking 21st

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04-30-2013, 10:57 AM
  #76
Falon
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Huberdeau has shifted to the wing, they really need a centre now. I think theyll take MacKinnon. Its the more important position when building a team, and while Drouin may be slightly more skilled, MacKinnon is better defensively and he's got more size.

Then Drouin can go to TB to play with Stamkos.
Yes it is more important. But Huberdeau's natural position is center, put him back and take the LW

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04-30-2013, 11:01 AM
  #77
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I see the Leafs taking the most NHL ready LW they can. Gauthier would be my first pick, but the Leafs haven't drafted fist out of the Q since 94. My guess is either Erne, Horvat or Rychel.

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04-30-2013, 11:08 AM
  #78
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I'm fine with one of Pulock, Rychel, Gauthier, or Hägg.

I think it might be worth taking a look at Samuel Morin in the 2nd, even though I'm somewhat on the Connor Hurley bandwagon. 6'7 defenseman and if he can skate as well as they say he can, he'd be a great pick. Mobile defensemen that are competent in their own end is a big hole on our team.

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04-30-2013, 11:32 AM
  #79
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Nichushkin may go higher than Barkov if he wasn't signed for 2 more years of KHL.
There is a chance, maybe a slim one, that Tampa will look at Nicushkin.
Yzerman seems to have some ties to the Russian players recently, maybe knowing Larionov, so will get a real good feel if they are seriuos about coming to N.A.

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04-30-2013, 11:36 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Falon View Post
Yes it is more important. But Huberdeau's natural position is center, put him back and take the LW
Huberdeau was often on the lw in junior too. Happens to a lot of guys, center in junior and then they shift to the wing. Like kessel (although NCAA instead of junior but you get the point).

Huberdeau has been fantastic at the wing, nonsense in moving him now.

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04-30-2013, 11:42 AM
  #81
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Huberdeau was often on the lw in junior too. Happens to a lot of guys, center in junior and then they shift to the wing. Like kessel (although NCAA instead of junior but you get the point).

Huberdeau has been fantastic at the wing, nonsense in moving him now.
I don't see Florida passing on MacKinnon. Drouin is skilled and crafty, but Mackinnon is the full package. I actually think he will turn out to be the best player in this draft, regardless of who gets picked at what spot.

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04-30-2013, 11:54 AM
  #82
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Player #1
6'1, 200lbs
Gp. G. A. Pts. Pims
68. 41 33 74. 54
68. 40 47 87. 94

Or Player #2
5'11, 190lbs
Gp. G. A. Pts. Pims
24. 7. 9. 16. 46
56. 23 37 60. 120

Everyone has a preference, but intangibles are there in both players. Player #2 also had a hell of a supporting cast around to help him, still putting up less. Both players play similar PF styles, and play leadership roles on their teams.

For my money, I'm taking player #1 every time. Also helps that he's pounded player #2 on a couple occasions... Lol


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Old
04-30-2013, 12:27 PM
  #83
416Leafer
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I don't see Florida passing on MacKinnon. Drouin is skilled and crafty, but Mackinnon is the full package. I actually think he will turn out to be the best player in this draft, regardless of who gets picked at what spot.
Exactly. It's like choosing between Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews. Sure, Kane may be slightly flashier, but Toews brings FAR more to the table.

Drouin is also the more likely of the two to be a bust due to his size and lack of other skills besides playmaking/scoring.

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04-30-2013, 12:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Exactly. It's like choosing between Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews. Sure, Kane may be slightly flashier, but Toews brings FAR more to the table.

Drouin is also the more likely of the two to be a bust due to his size and lack of other skills besides playmaking/scoring.
It's actually not like Toews and Kane at all. You are stereotyping Drouin due to his size. He actually brings a lot to the table besides his obvious offensive skill.

Also MacKinnon has always struggled defensively. He has shown some improvements in that department lately and may continue improving but he will never have Toews' defensive acumen.

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04-30-2013, 12:46 PM
  #85
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Rychel vs Hartman is three posts above.

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04-30-2013, 12:53 PM
  #86
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^^^
Sharp fella.

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04-30-2013, 12:54 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
It's actually not like Toews and Kane at all. You are stereotyping Drouin due to his size. He actually brings a lot to the table besides his obvious offensive skill.

Also MacKinnon has always struggled defensively. He has shown some improvements in that department lately and may continue improving but he will never have Toews' defensive acumen.
Oh sorry MacKinnon isn't EXACTLY like Toews.

It's as accurate a comparison as youre going to get when comparing teammates of similar archetypes to Drouin/MacKinnon. Drouin is a highly skilled offensive winger, who is small, and who ISN'T very good defensively, it isn't a stereotype due to size. Datsyuk is small, and is arguably the best defensive forward in the world. ROR is also small and very good defensively. And even if Drouin as solid defensively, wingers simply don't have the same impact that a centre can have on that aspect of the game.

MacKinnon is bigger, plays the more important position, is himself highly skilled, and is a pretty solid two-way player, which should only improve with age. He's a lot better defensively compared to what Tavares/Stamkos/etc were showing during Junior.

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04-30-2013, 12:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Player #1
6'1, 200lbs
Gp. G. A. Pts. Pims
68. 41 33 74. 54
68. 40 47 87. 94

Or Player #2
5'11, 190lbs
Gp. G. A. Pts. Pims
24. 7. 9. 16. 46
56. 23 37 60. 120

Everyone has a preference, but intangibles are there in both players. Player #2 also had a hell of a supporting cast around to help him, still putting up less. Both players play similar PF styles, and play leadership roles on their teams.

For my money, I'm taking player #1 every time. Also helps that he's pounded player #2 on a couple occasions... Lol
You know that there is a huge learning curve in junior hockey right?
Rychel has played 220 games of junior. Hartman has played 65

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04-30-2013, 12:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Guy Boucher View Post
It's actually not like Toews and Kane at all. You are stereotyping Drouin due to his size. He actually brings a lot to the table besides his obvious offensive skill.

Also MacKinnon has always struggled defensively. He has shown some improvements in that department lately and may continue improving but he will never have Toews' defensive acumen.
Hockey has a weird issue with size. There is entirely too much fear out into "lack of size" in players. I mean the leagues best player is the same size as drouin, a 5 foot 6/7 player just won the art Ross, and there is probably more successful sub 6 foot players in the league than there is 6 foot 4 plus players.

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04-30-2013, 01:12 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
You know that there is a huge learning curve in junior hockey right?
Rychel has played 220 games of junior. Hartman has played 65
Hartman played with the best in his country, with the NTDP. Then he played on one of the best teams in the entire league.

He's had as much help along the way as anyone. Not to mention, when you play with the NTDP, you play a TON of hockey. Between the USHL schedule, games against NCAA teams, exhibition international play, international tournaments, etc., it's not like the OHL is this huge change.

I look at who they had around them, and the role they were asked to play, and even then, Rychel played both the roughneck role, as well as a leadership/scoring role, and did both very well, with far less help to fall back on.

I like both players, but I personally don't think it's really a question, based on what we can deduce from even just this last season, who looks to be the better player, and higher potential. If Kerby was a better skater, he wouldn't even be realistic for us, and it doesn't hold him back in his current state.

JMO, though.

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04-30-2013, 03:12 PM
  #91
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Gotta say Tampa picking 3rd is perfect for them. Drouin will fit that team like a glove. Plays LW (so much for the "switching back to center talk"). Hockey IQ is off the charts, offensively gifted. I'd say the best offensive player in the draft.

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04-30-2013, 03:18 PM
  #92
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Gotta say Tampa picking 3rd is perfect for them. Drouin will fit that team like a glove. Plays LW (so much for the "switching back to center talk"). Hockey IQ is off the charts, offensively gifted. I'd say the best offensive player in the draft.
Not saying that he will be Martin St Louis ... But considering St Louis is probably close-ish to retirement, Drouin will probably be able to take his place once he does decide to retire

... Almost works out perfectly for them..

However, do they really need more offense? Yzerman might make a hard push to get Jones for their ailing defense core, but it'd probably take a lot for the Aves to budge at this point since its their need too

Also Florida having a 1-2 punch of MacKinnon - Huberdeau is just filthy for their future

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04-30-2013, 03:34 PM
  #93
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However, do they really need more offense? Yzerman might make a hard push to get Jones for their ailing defense core, but it'd probably take a lot for the Aves to budge at this point since its their need too
I think the Avs 100% won't be trading the pick, and will be drafting Jones. It's by far their biggest team need, and there's no way any team will offer them something good enough to pass up the opportunity to get Jones.

As for TB, I think they would trade a package including guys like Purcell/Connolly/Vasilevski to try and bring in a top pairing Dman way before they would move the 3rd overall pick (likely Drouin). They have the trade pieces to acquire a top pairing Dman if they want to without giving up Drouin, which I think makes sense.

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04-30-2013, 03:40 PM
  #94
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You know that there is a huge learning curve in junior hockey right?
Rychel has played 220 games of junior. Hartman has played 65
Great point to see through cherry picked stats, no 2 prospects are the same and you illustrated this brilliantly. Certainly not one that has played only 65 games of OHL to 220 OHL games.

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04-30-2013, 03:50 PM
  #95
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Great point to see through cherry picked stats, no 2 prospects are the same and you illustrated this brilliantly. Certainly not one that has played only 65 games of OHL to 220 OHL games.
Shows just how hard a job it is for scouts, and why tons of teams pass on future all-stars in favour of future busts.

Scouts are comparing players of different positions, playing with different linemates, playing on different teams with different offensive vs defensive tendencies that can over-exaggerate/mask their good qualities and their bad qualities, some players differ in age by as much as 11-12 months, and even playing in different leagues, some against men, some not, etc.

Gotta include context when your comparing players, including OHL experience. If we didn't use context, then the draft would pretty much come down to looking at point totals and ignoring everything else.

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04-30-2013, 05:32 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Shows just how hard a job it is for scouts, and why tons of teams pass on future all-stars in favour of future busts.

Scouts are comparing players of different positions, playing with different linemates, playing on different teams with different offensive vs defensive tendencies that can over-exaggerate/mask their good qualities and their bad qualities, some players differ in age by as much as 11-12 months, and even playing in different leagues, some against men, some not, etc.

Gotta include context when your comparing players, including OHL experience. If we didn't use context, then the draft would pretty much come down to looking at point totals and ignoring everything else.
First off, I wasn't selective in my stats, I gave their last two junior seasons.

Second of all, watching the two on multiple occasions, they both impact games, but one has stood out above the other on more than one occasion.

It's VERY clear that Rychel's offensive talent is above that of Hartman's at this point, and if we have draft year as a basis, then how do we project Hartman above him in that regard, given that Rychel has the NHL shot, the release, and instincts already? it stands to reason that with growth and strength, those attributes will grow as well. they both play physical games, and drop their gloves when the occasion arises, with Rychel doing a number on Hartman twice this year, once on national television.

They both play a two-way game, and the nod in skating goes to Hartman at this point. But as you can see by watching, Kerby isn't held back by his. He has the long stride you look for, and just needs to work on the mechanics. The puck finds him, which is something you can't teach. He's around it, and anticipates well.

Like I said, it's my opinion from viewing, and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. I don't have it out for Hartman, he's a heart and soul kid who bleeds for his teammates. I just don't see him as a better player now, or in the future, that's all.

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04-30-2013, 05:40 PM
  #97
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Oh sorry MacKinnon isn't EXACTLY like Toews.

It's as accurate a comparison as youre going to get when comparing teammates of similar archetypes to Drouin/MacKinnon. Drouin is a highly skilled offensive winger, who is small, and who ISN'T very good defensively, it isn't a stereotype due to size. Datsyuk is small, and is arguably the best defensive forward in the world. ROR is also small and very good defensively. And even if Drouin as solid defensively, wingers simply don't have the same impact that a centre can have on that aspect of the game.

MacKinnon is bigger, plays the more important position, is himself highly skilled, and is a pretty solid two-way player, which should only improve with age. He's a lot better defensively compared to what Tavares/Stamkos/etc were showing during Junior.
Not really. He's behind where they were.

Drouin is better defensively at his position than MacKinnon is. In fact, Drouin is a pretty good penalty killer - better than MacKinnon.

I'm also not convinced MacKinnon is going to stick at Centre in the NHL. I think he's probably better at C than W, but I thought the same thing about Seguin who has been stapled to the wing and the two are very similar players.

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04-30-2013, 05:48 PM
  #98
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Not saying that he will be Martin St Louis ... But considering St Louis is probably close-ish to retirement, Drouin will probably be able to take his place once he does decide to retire

... Almost works out perfectly for them..

However, do they really need more offense? Yzerman might make a hard push to get Jones for their ailing defense core, but it'd probably take a lot for the Aves to budge at this point since its their need too

Also Florida having a 1-2 punch of MacKinnon - Huberdeau is just filthy for their future
I do agree they don't need offence but just saying its really good for Drouin personally. Not only can he play with Stamkos and St Louis but learn from St Louis before he retires and can really take his spot.

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04-30-2013, 06:32 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Shows just how hard a job it is for scouts, and why tons of teams pass on future all-stars in favour of future busts.

Scouts are comparing players of different positions, playing with different linemates, playing on different teams with different offensive vs defensive tendencies that can over-exaggerate/mask their good qualities and their bad qualities, some players differ in age by as much as 11-12 months, and even playing in different leagues, some against men, some not, etc.

Gotta include context when your comparing players, including OHL experience. If we didn't use context, then the draft would pretty much come down to looking at point totals and ignoring everything else.
You understand context, most do, you can't make black and white judgments on players, by blindly comparing stats. There are many more factors, for instance you can't measure desire and heart, those don't show up on a stats sheet.

I think most scouts want to pick the next star, or someone that is going to be the best player at 22, or 23. Not necessarily at 18 or for next season. Comparing stats when 2 players are at different points of their development is silly, this is exactly why I see a lot of upside in a player like Justin Bailey.

It takes a real good understanding and at times intuition to project players, physical tools, character and also understanding where they came from. Bailey was basically a high school player to the OHL, he's not going to tear up the OHL his first exposure to it, but he will more than likely next year improve his points totals as he grows and gains experience. Same for Hartman, it was his first season in the OHL. Look at Rychel his first season in the OHL he scored 13 points, though he was a younger player, no one barring extraordinary talents tear up the OHL at first exposure.

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04-30-2013, 09:30 PM
  #100
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Rychel vs Hartman is three posts above.
TBH i would be fine with either or both

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