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Old
04-30-2013, 11:39 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The example of Stortini wasn't whether he could fight or not, it was that he fought a lot compared to Brown(who is smaller and weaker player, despite being a more effective fighter).
Thanks for recognizing what I was trying to say there Tarus. Stortini was hungry and willing to do whatever he had to to stay in the league. These days we've got a bunch of entitled softies who wouldn't drop the gloves if their own momma was getting roughed up.

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When you see Hall getting chased around the ice, and the only response is Smid going after one guy, and Hall is just trying to get off the ice because he knows he can't take on the other 4 alone - that's a team personnel problem, not coaching.
Exactly. But I think you forgot to mention Horc standing around looking senatorial as he pretends not to see what is going on.

Lets remember Quinn who used to call a spade a spade. He said most of the team was "creampuffs and morning glories", which pretty much nails it I think.

Plenty of reasons to question Krueger's moves this season. No need to make stuff up.

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04-30-2013, 11:43 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
I can't believe this is team policy. Pretty sure I heard Stauffer saying that everyone knew Brown was looking for something right off the bat against the Wild. And Krueger starts his fourth line to oblige him? I mean come on why start Brown if this is a coach telling his players to turn the other cheek?

Konopka pretty much took Brown apart anyway so its not like the Oilers have an effective answer for a team like Vancouver where half the guys on the ice at any given time are very deserving of being called to account.

Hopefully Brown won't be back. He's tough and skates real fast I'll give him that, but he's too small and too bad at the fundamentals of hockey to waste a roster spot on.

I think most of the players in Edmonton are more gutless than you give them credit for. Players who get shifts and continue to watch their team mates taking cheapshots without responding cannot blame it on the coach.

I know you were one of the guys who always laughed and called Stortini "huggy", but there was a guy who was willing to a fault. NHL leader in fighting majors has fourteen fights this season. Brown has twelve. In 07/08 Stortini had twenty three fights, and in 08/09 he led the NHL with 25 majors. Now I know you're laughing and saying fighting Stortini was like a picnic for the opponent, and we can agree to disagree there, but his fighting ability is not the question. Sixty five fighting majors over three seasons were accumulated because at least he never stood by and watched team mates get man handled without stepping up to the plate and dropping the gloves immediately. Against whoever it was.

Who on this team has even remotely come close to doing that since? Maybe Penner or Souray?
Brown would be a very effective player with a bigger guy like to back up up and fight the true heavies. Brown would then be free to go out a beat down a gutless punk like Bieksa when he cheap shots Hall. You dont get rid of Brown, you get a tougher player to complement him.

Brown straight up said after the Vancouver game when they we down 4-0 and Bieksa and his buddies were being dirty that Kruger told them not to respond or retaliate. That is not the player "blaming" the coach. That is the coach being a ***** and not allowing the players to be men, not allowing them to stand up for them selves, not dressing some of our toughest players like Fistric who can actually hit back against rival teams in big games.

Penner truly stood up for teammates, and fought to protect them. Souray however fought for his own pride and personal agenda while he was an Oiler. Hell he fought scrubs in the AHL with Hershey for no reason as well.

As for Stortini he was a joke. Players on other teams laughed openly and mocked him after fights on the ice. Sure the guy was willing but he is the most pathetic heavy weight I have ever seen in the NHL. The guy was scared of getting punched. Every time he fought it gave momentum to the other team and in no way deterred them from taking liberties.

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04-30-2013, 11:45 PM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The example of Stortini wasn't whether he could fight or not, it was that he fought a lot compared to Brown(who is smaller and weaker player, despite being a more effective fighter). No one would fight Big Mac, and Laraque was a pacifist, but that is irrelevant as they were obsolete during their final years in the NHL just like every other enforcer.

It's not a coaching mandate that 90% of the players on the roster stand around awkwardly watching their teammates get roughed up, terrified to do anything lest they get involved. When you see Hall getting chased around the ice, and the only response is Smid going after one guy, and Hall is just trying to get off the ice because he knows he can't take on the other 4 alone - that's a team personnel problem, not coaching.

Half of Kreuger's post game comments this year have centered around him diplomatically stating they need to stop being wimps and stand up for themselves
I think that there has been a coaching mandate to not fight. Laraque is on the record saying that MacT told him not fight or he would not dress. Pretty hard for SMac to fight when he wasn't played. It sure seems like Brown was told not to fight after a couple of weeks here. But yeh, you are convincing me we need Stortini back because he was willing to go with anyone. If the argument is that there is only one person willing to fight I'm with you, they need to get tougher no doubt.

Kreuger's post game comments were usually contradicting the way he actually coached the game. He loves the pressers.

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04-30-2013, 11:49 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Based on what, the KB I know gave everything he had to this franchise.
That literally means less than nothing. He is not intelligent. He is hardly coherent. He was the poster boy for the mid to late 90's Oilers. Lacking talent, not short on grit and try. Got his face caved in multiple times. He was never a really good player. Has never shown to be a capable coach at any level. Was (apparently) terrible in the A, missed the playoffs in his one season, labelled as a fairly rudimentary, screamer of a HC. I remember media members questioning his hire (as HC of Springfield) and getting negative comments/reactions from players under his tutelage. Then he was promoted to the NHL after a year. His hire is a textbook example of what is wrong with the franchise given he was brought into the fold via Kevin Lowe et al basically since he remained in Edmonton after his playing career, was active in the community and also given his blue collar persona and representation of his era of Oilers. Enough is enough though. What the **** has he, or any of the coaches for that matter contributed? If you think he's part of the solution I don't know what to tell you. I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would support keeping Bucky. Wouldn't surprise me if he's next in line for the HCing gig with the big club.


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04-30-2013, 11:55 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Brown would be a very effective player with a bigger guy like to back up up and fight the true heavies. Brown would then be free to go out a beat down a gutless punk like Bieksa when he cheap shots Hall. You dont get rid of Brown, you get a tougher player to complement him.
I'm not at all sure that Brown could handle Bieksa.
What do you think of Brown's hockey in general. Pretty terrible, no?

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Brown straight up said after the Vancouver game when they we down 4-0 and Bieksa and his buddies were being dirty that Kruger told them not to respond or retaliate. That is not the player "blaming" the coach. That is the coach being a ***** and not allowing the players to be men, not allowing them to stand up for them selves, not dressing some of our toughest players like Fistric who can actually hit back against rival teams in big games.
I missed the comment, and concede that in certain situations the coach might tell his players not to escalate the situation. But that's one game. We had forty seven other games of the players on this team who should be stepping up sleep-walking through another loss while the rookies and shrimps on this team got taken to the woodshed by the likes of Bieksa.

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Souray however fought for his own pride and personal agenda while he was an Oiler. Hell he fought scrubs in the AHL with Hershey for no reason as well.
Bet he tuned them up good too. Souray is a tough guy regardless of his motivations. I think he was a figure of some intimidation that made punks like Bieksa think twice. Brown will never be that.

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As for Stortini he was a joke. Players on other teams laughed openly and mocked him after fights on the ice. Sure the guy was willing but he is the most pathetic heavy weight I have ever seen in the NHL. The guy was scared of getting punched. Every time he fought it gave momentum to the other team and in no way deterred them from taking liberties.
Not the point. Why don't we have players who are at least willing anymore?

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04-30-2013, 11:58 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
It sure seems like Brown was told not to fight after a couple of weeks here.
Then answer the question. Why did Krueger start Brown and give him the opportunity to fight Konopka two seconds into the game, when Stauffer said everyone knew Brown was looking for a scrap?

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05-01-2013, 12:04 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
I'm not at all sure that Brown could handle Bieksa.
What do you think of Brown's hockey in general. Pretty terrible, no?

I missed the comment, and concede that in certain situations the coach might tell his players not to escalate the situation. But that's one game. We had forty seven other games of the players on this team who should be stepping up sleep-walking through another loss while the rookies and shrimps on this team got taken to the woodshed by the likes of Bieksa.

Bet he tuned them up good too. Souray is a tough guy regardless of his motivations. I think he was a figure of some intimidation that made punks like Bieksa think twice. Brown will never be that.

Not the point. Why don't we have players who are at least willing anymore?
Brown had the second most fights in the league this year, he only played 39 games. He was more than willing, unfortunately he is not a heavyweight.

And I think was Krueger after the Canucks game admitted that he told the players not to fight or engage. Can't remember or find the quote.

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05-01-2013, 12:09 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Then answer the question. Why did Krueger start Brown and give him the opportunity to fight Konopka two seconds into the game, when Stauffer said everyone knew Brown was looking for a scrap?
It has been hard to understand or justify many of Krueger's decisions this past year. That decision was great, he doesn't get allot of credit for making good line matching when he has the last change. To try and answer the question, maybe he figured there was nothing else to lose and lets match toughness. But Brown was willing, Correct? I'm glad that Brown found a fight.

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05-01-2013, 12:13 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Based on what, the KB I know gave everything he had to this franchise.
Now I get it - he gave everything to the franchise so he is qualified to be a coach in the NHL. That argument is very similar to Mr. Lowe's declaration that he is qualified to lead this team based on his ability to win Stanley Cups as a player...

Your argument is exactly what is wrong with this franchise - rewarding ex-players for "trying hard"...

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05-01-2013, 12:18 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
I think that there has been a coaching mandate to not fight. Laraque is on the record saying that MacT told him not fight or he would not dress. Pretty hard for SMac to fight when he wasn't played. It sure seems like Brown was told not to fight after a couple of weeks here. But yeh, you are convincing me we need Stortini back because he was willing to go with anyone. If the argument is that there is only one person willing to fight I'm with you, they need to get tougher no doubt.

Kreuger's post game comments were usually contradicting the way he actually coached the game. He loves the pressers.
Aside from the fact anything to do with Smac/Laraque is ancient history(and a wasted argument given they were obsolete as it was).

I wasn't at all surprised when Laraque made that claim. I believe it, and it makes sense - because Laraque's fights were the ultimate in on-ice uselessness. He didn't defend teammates, he watched them get roughed up(sometimes right in front of him) and then went over to the opposing team's enforcer and politely asked if he could avenge the slight. It was a waste of everyone's time.

Brown wasn't told not to fight either. His progression from an aggressive player when he got here, to blending in with everyone else was obvious, and blatant. No one is going to get ganged up on with no backup game after game and continue to put himself in that position, he's a fighter who wants to play past this year, not an idiot.

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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
Exactly. But I think you forgot to mention Horc standing around looking senatorial as he pretends not to see what is going on.

Lets remember Quinn who used to call a spade a spade. He said most of the team was "creampuffs and morning glories", which pretty much nails it I think.

Plenty of reasons to question Krueger's moves this season. No need to make stuff up.
Yep, I remember that, that is unfortunately the player with the captaincy on this team. It's nothing new with Horc, and part of the reason I've been on the anti-Horcoff bandwagon for a very long time now, just an incredibly soft player.

Funny you mention that about Quinn, he did indeed see it right away and said as much. The architect of all those tough Maple Leaf teams that brawled every chance they got. Yet even when he was fired from the Oilers, people were blaming him for intentionally pacifying the roster in an effort to scape-goat anyone but the players for how incredibly soft this team was/is.


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05-01-2013, 12:19 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Philly85 View Post
That literally means less than nothing. He is not intelligent. He is hardly coherent. He was the poster boy for the mid to late 90's Oilers. Lacking talent, not short on grit and try. Got his face caved in multiple times. He was never a really good player. Has never shown to be a capable coach at any level. Was (apparently) terrible in the A, missed the playoffs in his one season, labelled as a fairly rudimentary, screamer of a HC. I remember media members questioning his hire (as HC of Springfield) and getting negative comments/reactions from players under his tutelage. Then he was promoted to the NHL after a year. His hire is a textbook example of what is wrong with the franchise given he was brought into the fold via Kevin Lowe et al basically since he remained in Edmonton after his playing career, was active in the community and also given his blue collar persona and representation of his era of Oilers. Enough is enough though. What the **** has he, or any of the coaches for that matter contributed? If you think he's part of the solution I don't know what to tell you. I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would support keeping Bucky. Wouldn't surprise me if he's next in line for the HCing gig with the big club.
Not true at all but please feel free to vent your frustrations.

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05-01-2013, 12:21 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Brown would be a very effective player with a bigger guy like to back up up and fight the true heavies. Brown would then be free to go out a beat down a gutless punk like Bieksa when he cheap shots Hall. You dont get rid of Brown, you get a tougher player to complement him.

Brown straight up said after the Vancouver game when they we down 4-0 and Bieksa and his buddies were being dirty that Kruger told them not to respond or retaliate. That is not the player "blaming" the coach. That is the coach being a ***** and not allowing the players to be men, not allowing them to stand up for them selves, not dressing some of our toughest players like Fistric who can actually hit back against rival teams in big games.

Penner truly stood up for teammates, and fought to protect them. Souray however fought for his own pride and personal agenda while he was an Oiler. Hell he fought scrubs in the AHL with Hershey for no reason as well.

As for Stortini he was a joke. Players on other teams laughed openly and mocked him after fights on the ice. Sure the guy was willing but he is the most pathetic heavy weight I have ever seen in the NHL. The guy was scared of getting punched. Every time he fought it gave momentum to the other team and in no way deterred them from taking liberties.
Why not get rid of Brown and just get the big guy who intimidates/fights. Why have a middleweight who does nothing but take a roster spot and needs a big guy to cover his ass?

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05-01-2013, 12:21 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
Now I get it - he gave everything to the franchise so he is qualified to be a coach in the NHL. That argument is very similar to Mr. Lowe's declaration that he is qualified to lead this team based on his ability to win Stanley Cups as a player...

Your argument is exactly what is wrong with this franchise - rewarding ex-players for "trying hard"...
As opposed to...

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05-01-2013, 12:24 AM
  #739
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As opposed to...
As opposed to what? A better option as an assistant coach? One that actually has a positive impact on the outcome of games? The only thing you should laugh at is the fact that Bucky has figured out the way to avoid being in the spotlight and being handpicked by KLowe has protected his pointless role on this team.

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05-01-2013, 12:28 AM
  #740
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He is hardly coherent.
This had me rolling.

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05-01-2013, 12:32 AM
  #741
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As opposed to what? A better option as an assistant coach? One that actually has a positive impact on the outcome of games? The only thing you should laugh at is the fact that Bucky has figured out the way to avoid being in the spotlight and being handpicked by KLowe has protected his pointless role on this team.
It is all a conspiracy to make us suck and everyone is dumb...blah, blah, blah. At what point is not about coaching anymore.

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05-01-2013, 12:37 AM
  #742
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It is all a conspiracy to make us suck and everyone is dumb...blah, blah, blah. At what point is not about coaching anymore.
What team goes through multiple head coaches that are not given the opportunity to bring in their own assistants?

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05-01-2013, 12:39 AM
  #743
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What team goes through multiple head coaches that are not given the opportunity to bring in their own assistants?
Quote, Link, any proof will do

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05-01-2013, 12:45 AM
  #744
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Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
What team goes through multiple head coaches that are not given the opportunity to bring in their own assistants?
They were allowed to bring in one guy each.

Quinn brought Wayne Fleming(RIP)
Renny brought in Kreuger after Don Hay turned him down.

Kreuger probably declined since he wanted to lower the chances of the team replacing him with one of his own assistants after one year


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05-01-2013, 12:45 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
I'm not at all sure that Brown could handle Bieksa.
What do you think of Brown's hockey in general. Pretty terrible, no?

I missed the comment, and concede that in certain situations the coach might tell his players not to escalate the situation. But that's one game. We had forty seven other games of the players on this team who should be stepping up sleep-walking through another loss while the rookies and shrimps on this team got taken to the woodshed by the likes of Bieksa.

Bet he tuned them up good too. Souray is a tough guy regardless of his motivations. I think he was a figure of some intimidation that made punks like Bieksa think twice. Brown will never be that.

Not the point. Why don't we have players who are at least willing anymore?
I think Brown would tool Bieksa. If Bieksa wasn't too much of a ***** to not turtle.

I agree this team is way too soft. The 2nd-4th lines are full of small cream puffs who if not producing offense dont do anything well. Besides Brown who hits and fights and Paajarvi who plays stellar D. We also has Fistric who is easily one of our top 6 Dmen regularly HS'd by Kreuger for some reason.

We have one player who is regularly willing. Brown. And you want to get rid of him. He is a perfectly capable player of taking a regular 4th line shift who can lead the team in hits/60 and fight guys like Bieksa if Ralph would allow him, which he didn't in the game where Bieksa took our skill guys to the woodshed.

We need a guy like Brown, we also need a tough as hell guy that can play 30 games against a team of shatheads like the Csnucks and play 5 minutes with Hall/Yak getting double shifted to fill in the other 3.

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05-01-2013, 12:48 AM
  #746
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They were allowed to bring in one guy each.

Quinn brought Wayne Cashman(RIP)
Renny brought in Kreuger after Don Hay turned him down.

Kreuger probably declined since he wanted to lower the chances of the team replacing him with one of his own assistants after one year
Wayne Fleming?

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05-01-2013, 12:51 AM
  #747
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Wayne Fleming?
Meh, wrong last name. Thanks for pointing that out.

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05-01-2013, 12:53 AM
  #748
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
They were allowed to bring in one guy each.

Quinn brought Wayne Cashman(RIP)
Renny brought in Kreuger after Don Hay turned him down.

Kreuger probably declined since he wanted to lower the chances of the team replacing him with one of his own assistants after one year
The joy of HF is to express differing opinions - you believe an assistant coach that has gone through 4 head coaches and actively been part of a team that finished out the playoffs and in the bottom 5 during his tenure should be allowed to stay.

I believe it is time for a change in the chaos that has been part of the coaching on this team for the past 6 years.

Cheers

Tarus - quoted the wrong post...not a response to you. Was replying to Tedi. My apologies...whiskey.

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05-01-2013, 12:57 AM
  #749
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Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
The joy of HF is to express differing opinions - you believe an assistant coach that has gone through 4 head coaches and actively been part of a team that finished out the playoffs and in the bottom 5 during his tenure should be allowed to stay.

I believe it is time for a change in the chaos that has been part of the coaching on this team for the past 6 years.

Cheers
Wasn't that all part of the rebuild idea?? Coaching has also been part of vastly improved special team stats in successive years. Just saying

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05-01-2013, 12:58 AM
  #750
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Originally Posted by cheezsannich View Post
The joy of HF is to express differing opinions - you believe an assistant coach that has gone through 4 head coaches and actively been part of a team that finished out the playoffs and in the bottom 5 during his tenure should be allowed to stay.

I believe it is time for a change in the chaos that has been part of the coaching on this team for the past 6 years.

Cheers
Never mind, lol

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