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09-15-2006, 01:36 PM
  #76
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For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.

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09-15-2006, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.
Pass.

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09-15-2006, 01:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.
oh my god..
Prucha has scored 30 goals in this league, Tyutin is already a 3-4 defenseman, and a first rounder.


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09-15-2006, 01:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.
LOL!

Good luck with that..

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09-15-2006, 01:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.
You're out of your mind if you think NYR are going to trade 2 of our top young players and a #1 for JJ. If anything, JJ is unproven himself, so why do NYR need to trade 2 vets for unproven rookie. The way I see it Carolina is looking for young vet Dman to take Kaberle place. No to Staal, no to Tyutin, if I thought Rachunek or Rozieval would do it or a combo of dmen, prospects or picks, ok. But I am in no hurry to trade our young up and coming players.

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09-15-2006, 02:12 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
For JJ I expect a lesser Chris Pronger type deal. So soemthing like Prucha, Tyitin and a 1st rounder would be needed.
That would be a huge overpayment, IMO. That was the kind of offer people were throwing around for Malkin. Johnson is just not that kind of prospect.

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09-15-2006, 02:31 PM
  #82
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I still think that the coree of any deal for Johnson should be Tyutin and Immonen. Tyutin gives them a top 4 defensemen who can step in now yet still has the potential to be more. But I don't believe Tyutin alone equals Johnson in value (not even close, imo) so Immonen adds value to the package.

I'm still not sure if that is enough value to bring back Johnson, but it's a start.

Staal makes no sense since he doesn't help the Canes now either (I do believe that he's more NHL ready than Johnson but he can't be counted upon to make the team.) Tyutin, while not as promising of a prospect, can help thee Canes now.

Whether or not such a deal would work comes down to how the Canes feel about Tyutin. If they think he's gonna develop consistency and become that #1/2 kind of guy then this deal could work. If they're put off by his red flags then this is a dead end.

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09-15-2006, 03:28 PM
  #83
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You can't have your cake and eat it too - and Carolina can't expect to receive potential value, presently, that matches what Johnson will be in the future.

I'm not going to suggest that Tyutin would be enough, because he's not - he's not proven enough - but I don't expect a Pronger-esque deal (even if on a minor scale...which really wouldn't be a Pronger-esque deal...).

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09-15-2006, 03:46 PM
  #84
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=289888

Polls are always good.

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09-15-2006, 05:47 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
He isn't even a bluechipper, one said, and that's just ridiculous. It was a subtle potshot at a Ranger prospect. Stop trying to make him look innocent.

I think that was either BrooklynDevil or Devilsfanatic.

Another said "I can't wait to hear Rutherford laugh at a Staal for JJ proposal."

"JJ is a better prospect at this point" is quite different from "He isn't even a bluechipper." That's what's wrong with that.

You know what, bash him all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Johnson is an unproven player, and shouldn't get anymore of a return than Staal or another bluechip prospect, if traded straight up.

They are not bashing him man, I invite anyone read that thread and I'm sure they would come to the same conclusion, in fact the same person you claim is bashing Staal also called him a future all-star.

If you want to suggest they are undervaluing Stall then that's fine, but to suggest they are bashing him is not correct anyway you try to slice it.

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09-15-2006, 06:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by robertch View Post
I think the Rangers are actually in very good position to make this deal. I think Staal plus a lower ranked prospect would be enough to land Johnson from Carolina -- because it's Staal and the "prospect" of having two Staal brothers together should add weight to his value. Furthermore, by all accounts Staal looks ready to make the jump to the NHL, but might not get a fair shot given out depth on Defense. Since, Roszival, Kaspar, Ward, Tjutin, Rachunek, and Malik are virtually guaranteed to start IMO.

I'd also be willing to deal Tjutin plus, but they will probably get better offers than that. Still, deal helps both teams. They get a young, NHL ready dman, with a small cap hit, plus some other potentially valuable assets in exchange for what, at the end of the day, is still an unproven player.
I am not sure if Johnson is a better NHL prospect than Stall. He is very gifted but an NHL scout I know pretty well told me this summer if the draft was redone right now, Stall would be picked higher than Johnson. Oh yes, I'd love to have both but trading one young asset for another doesn't solve Carolina's problem or make a lot of sense. Carolina won the Stanley Cup last year. Any trade they make will be based on immediate help going their way. I don't know how they rate our defensemen but IMO they could have any one of our experienced seven plus some other mid-level assets for JJ.

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09-15-2006, 08:47 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by nrf83 View Post
You're out of your mind if you think NYR are going to trade 2 of our top young players and a #1 for JJ. If anything, JJ is unproven himself, so why do NYR need to trade 2 vets for unproven rookie. The way I see it Carolina is looking for young vet Dman to take Kaberle place. No to Staal, no to Tyutin, if I thought Rachunek or Rozieval would do it or a combo of dmen, prospects or picks, ok. But I am in no hurry to trade our young up and coming players.
2 things:

1. Fair enough, JJ is unproven, but I wouldnt' exactly call Prucha and Tyutin "proven vets". They're both fairly young players and most cases you can make for either player's potential could also be used for JJ.

2. You are in no hurry to trade our young up and coming players? Neither is Carolina. From a salary and production point of view, I think Carolina's ideal return would be another fairly young/good and inexpensive d man.

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09-15-2006, 08:51 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by barrel_master View Post
2 things:

1. Fair enough, JJ is unproven, but I wouldnt' exactly call Prucha and Tyutin "proven vets". They're both fairly young players and most cases you can make for either player's potential could also be used for JJ.
I would agree with you on Tyutin, but I have seen enough of Prucha last season to know that while he might not be a "proven vet" yet, he is the real deal.

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09-15-2006, 08:52 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
That would be a huge overpayment, IMO. That was the kind of offer people were throwing around for Malkin. Johnson is just not that kind of prospect.
Fair enough, although I don't think that Tuts Prucha + 1st would even be enough for Malkin, but that's beside the point. The package I proposed probably is overpayment, but none the less, a SIGNIFICANT offer would have to be made before we could aquire JJ and that can't be just Roz + Immonen + 1st rounder. I honestly think that something in the range of Dubinskey/Immonen+2nd/Dawes + Tuts + 1st would be needed to move JJ out of Carolina and into a Rangers uniform.

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09-15-2006, 08:58 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
You can't have your cake and eat it too - and Carolina can't expect to receive potential value, presently, that matches what Johnson will be in the future.

I'm not going to suggest that Tyutin would be enough, because he's not - he's not proven enough - but I don't expect a Pronger-esque deal (even if on a minor scale...which really wouldn't be a Pronger-esque deal...).
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I would agree with you on Tyutin, but I have seen enough of Prucha last season to know that while he might not be a "proven vet" yet, he is the real deal.
Two very fair opinions. As a fan, I agree with those that think a NYR/CAR deal is unlikely. The point I want to make is that a significant/painful amount of players/talent will have to be given up to aquire Johnson. If we can somehow give up garbage to get him I'm all for it of course, unfortunately, that outcome is unlikely.

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09-15-2006, 10:53 PM
  #91
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11:00 pm CST

Better prospect:

Marc Staal 9
Jack Johnson 37

Certainly it's tough to make a poll asking people how close they feel the two are, but I can't say that I'm surprised by the votes right now. Although Staal's stock has improved by leaps and bounds, it's still not on the Dion level, and that's probably what's necessary for him to be considered ahead of Johnson - the first dman drafted in '05.

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09-16-2006, 03:46 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
I am not sure if Johnson is a better NHL prospect than Stall. He is very gifted but an NHL scout I know pretty well told me this summer if the draft was redone right now, Stall would be picked higher than Johnson. Oh yes, I'd love to have both but trading one young asset for another doesn't solve Carolina's problem or make a lot of sense. Carolina won the Stanley Cup last year. Any trade they make will be based on immediate help going their way. I don't know how they rate our defensemen but IMO they could have any one of our experienced seven plus some other mid-level assets for JJ.
I am not surpised at all. Johnson is a sexier prospect and will therefor always be high ranked here at HF, but you don't want sexy in hockey, you want someone who can get the job done, Staal is dooing that, and besides he is a pretty darn good package at 62, he have a good long stride, and defenitly serviceable hands.

I am not bashing Johnson, but the poll among GM's, IMO, wouldn't be 3/4 in favor of Johnson. Johnson who in fact where running around quit allot in the WJC, its not like he a is a kid without flaws...

A example, if we are talking Kovalchuk vs. Eric Staal, after seeing them in the NHL just about anyone would take Eric over Kovalchuk. Though gooing by the same standards we have here on HF, Kovalchuk would get the nod 9 out of 10 times.


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09-16-2006, 04:31 PM
  #93
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I think part of it comes down to who you think might be better several years from.

Staal is the safer, steadier player, Johnson is the guy who could terrorize teams.

It's similar to the 04 draft with Phaneuf, Coburn and Suter.

Personally I wouldn't move Staal for him, just because the potential gain is less than the risk.

But I'd certainly put Tyutin in a deal.

But the thing is Carolina is going to want either A. A vet who is considered amongst the top in the game or B. a top end prospect who can step right in this season.

I don't see the Rangers offering up either so I don't see Carolina interested in "depth" players.

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09-16-2006, 04:51 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post

But the thing is Carolina is going to want either A. A vet who is considered amongst the top in the game or B. a top end prospect who can step right in this season.

I don't see the Rangers offering up either so I don't see Carolina interested in "depth" players.

I guess it depends on how the canes evaluate Tyutin. If they see him as a potential 1 who's playing now then you could build a package around him. Personally, I don't see him as that (and I would guess thee Canes don't either) but there are some who do, so I think it's worth talking about.

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09-16-2006, 11:08 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think part of it comes down to who you think might be better several years from.

Staal is the safer, steadier player, Johnson is the guy who could terrorize teams.

It's similar to the 04 draft with Phaneuf, Coburn and Suter.

Personally I wouldn't move Staal for him, just because the potential gain is less than the risk.

But I'd certainly put Tyutin in a deal.

But the thing is Carolina is going to want either A. A vet who is considered amongst the top in the game or B. a top end prospect who can step right in this season.

I don't see the Rangers offering up either so I don't see Carolina interested in "depth" players.
That was the 03 draft... I remember that draft all too well, and if I say the name, it will once again spark the endless debate because we SCREWED UP BIGTIME in that draft, and we will always remember it because of that. Easily one of the deepest drafts in the NHL's history. Fleury, Staal, Zherdev, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, Parise, Brown, Nilsson, Getzlaf, Perry, Bernier, Michalek, Richards, Carter, etc...

But sorry to go off on a tangent, I think you're exactly right about what Carolina wants, and we're just not good trading partners for them. Tyutin could be moved, but does Tyutin have the upside that Johnson has, and will they take that into factor? I think they will. I think they would want a defenseman like Bouwmeester or Phaneuf, and they're not getting either unless they offer a deal that you just can't refuse. Johnson's value straight up in a deal is little, at most, he should fetch a 1st rounder, being that he's an unproven commodity. People seem to think he's going to gather a Malkin like return. Malkin is the best player in the world outside of the NHL, Johnson is NOT EVEN CLOSE to that title, quite frankly, I don't think he's the best defensive prospect in the NHL, that title would go to Erik Johnson, who I watched closely at the 06 WJC via Center Ice, and was AMAZING.

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09-16-2006, 11:17 PM
  #96
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To respond to both Xander and Gretz, personally I don't think Tyutin gets it done or the Canes see him that way but strangers things have happened. I just wouldn't hope too hard.

As for Johnson, I am still very high on him and saw a lot of similarities to Phaneuf at the same stage. My personal opinion is that he isn't in the NHL so all of sudden people start coming out of the word work with "oh he's not this" or "oh he's not as good as that", etc. etc. etc.

Personally I think it's bull and I see it happen all the time in hockey.

As for Erik Johnson, I like him but I've said for months and I'll say it again, I honestly think he's overrated at this point and he's been put on this pedastal of the best defensive prospect of the last decade, etc. etc.

Sorry, don't see it. Very good steady kid who is going to be an all-star for many years, but not god's gift to defense. Scouts and "experts" fall in love with players sometimes and give them titles and you look back at history and the guys who lead there teams to championships and who don't have those titles bestowed upon them truly go underappreciated.

I'd take JJ and Staal has my 1-2 defenseman and never look back. Take Montoya, take Tyutin, take my first. I'll pay it.

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09-17-2006, 12:38 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
To respond to both Xander and Gretz, personally I don't think Tyutin gets it done or the Canes see him that way but strangers things have happened. I just wouldn't hope too hard.

As for Johnson, I am still very high on him and saw a lot of similarities to Phaneuf at the same stage. My personal opinion is that he isn't in the NHL so all of sudden people start coming out of the word work with "oh he's not this" or "oh he's not as good as that", etc. etc. etc.

Personally I think it's bull and I see it happen all the time in hockey.

As for Erik Johnson, I like him but I've said for months and I'll say it again, I honestly think he's overrated at this point and he's been put on this pedastal of the best defensive prospect of the last decade, etc. etc.

Sorry, don't see it. Very good steady kid who is going to be an all-star for many years, but not god's gift to defense. Scouts and "experts" fall in love with players sometimes and give them titles and you look back at history and the guys who lead there teams to championships and who don't have those titles bestowed upon them truly go underappreciated.

I'd take JJ and Staal has my 1-2 defenseman and never look back. Take Montoya, take Tyutin, take my first. I'll pay it.
I think Erik plays just as good as an all-around game as Jack, if you ask me, and Erik was FAR AND AWAY better than Jack at the WJC this year. I watched both of them very closely, being that I had heard a little about Erik before the tournament. Jack was the guy I was set on watching on the US defense until I heard about Erik, but Erik stole the show.

I agree though, Erik is not the best defensive prospect I've seen in the last 10 years. Phaneuf has that title if you ask me, and the sad part about it is, that draft was so damn deep that Phaneuf wasn't even the center of attention. He wasn't even a top 5 pick, that's how deep that draft was. I also agree with your view about the experts and the hyping of certain players, it's ridiculous. How many players have came along in the last 2 decades and have been named "The next one" or the "Next big thing?" Lindros, Spezza, Daigle, Crosby... while Crosby and Spezza are producing great numbers at a young age, neither of them are anything close to claiming that title. Lindros put up phenomenal numbers for the earlier part of his career, and is now just a shell of a his former self due to concussions. To make claims like those is tough because generational players don't come along often.

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09-17-2006, 12:49 AM
  #98
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I think Erik plays just as good as an all-around game as Jack, if you ask me, and Erik was FAR AND AWAY better than Jack at the WJC this year. I watched both of them very closely, being that I had heard a little about Erik before the tournament. Jack was the guy I was set on watching on the US defense until I heard about Erik, but Erik stole the show.

I think Erik plays the better all-around game right now, but I also think he's closer to the finished product than Jack. People don't realize how raw Jack still is and how there are certain elements to his game that are still coming together. This kid is very similar to Dion Phaneuf in the sense that he's got the potential to be a Scott Stevens clone.

There's certain elements in Jack's game such as offense and physical play that are still maturing. I think Erik is steaider, more polished and more poised but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Jack putting up better offensive numbers and overshadowing Erik with his physical elements.

The debate I find myself in with JJ is the one I found myself in with Dion.

You defense with lots of tools but very raw, a work in progress. Guys steadier and more developed at the same age (say 19) but give him a few years and the conversations will seem almost silly.

I remember back in 04 people fought me tooth and nail about my thoughts that not only was Phaneuf the best defenseman in that draft but that he had a ton of emerging offensive talent. Suddenly in the last two years, EVERYONE is a Phaneuf fan. But if it wasn't for those people I wouldn't have the reputation I do because it's frankly built on people looking back again and again and saying "Yup, Edge was right". If it sounds like an ego trip, that's fine by me. I have faith in my ability to judge players, and contrary to what some might say, not all opinions are equal no matter how much someone claims they know just as much. (This isn't directed at you, just me making a statement so I repeat this is NOT a shot at you).

I'll say flat out, right now, JJ has THAT kind of potential and he's already heading in the right direction. Now that he's not the shiny new car on the lot, everyone wants to kick the tires and try to get him at a discount (such is the way with prospects) but make no bones, this kid is a bluechip defensive prospect.

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09-17-2006, 01:03 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think Erik plays the better all-around game right now, but I also think he's closer to the finished product than Jack. People don't realize how raw Jack still is and how there are certain elements to his game that are still coming together. This kid is very similar to Dion Phaneuf in the sense that he's got the potential to be a Scott Stevens clone.

There's certain elements in Jack's game such as offense and physical play that are still maturing. I think Erik is steaider, more polished and more poised but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Jack putting up better offensive numbers and overshadowing Erik with his physical elements.

The debate I find myself in with JJ is the one I found myself in with Dion.

You defense with lots of tools but very raw, a work in progress. Guys steadier and more developed at the same age (say 19) but give him a few years and the conversations will seem almost silly.

I remember back in 04 people fought me tooth and nail about my thoughts that not only was Phaneuf the best defenseman in that draft but that he had a ton of emerging offensive talent. Suddenly in the last two years, EVERYONE is a Phaneuf fan. But if it wasn't for those people I wouldn't have the reputation I do because it's frankly built on people looking back again and again and saying "Yup, Edge was right". If it sounds like an ego trip, that's fine by me. I have faith in my ability to judge players, and contrary to what some might say, not all opinions are equal no matter how much someone claims they know just as much. (This isn't directed at you, just me making a statement so I repeat this is NOT a shot at you).

I'll say flat out, right now, JJ has THAT kind of potential and he's already heading in the right direction. Now that he's not the shiny new car on the lot, everyone wants to kick the tires and try to get him at a discount (such is the way with prospects) but make no bones, this kid is a bluechip defensive prospect.
id love to grab ladd as well, id move immonen to get him. they can use help at centre since they dealt vasicek and let weight and cullen go.

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09-17-2006, 01:20 AM
  #100
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And that's what is really scary about what Carolina has going on down there.

They won last year but they still have got guys like Ladd & Johnson coming through the system to compliment Staal who is only 21, Ward is a little older and guys like Cole who are just now entering their peak seasons.

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