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Old
05-01-2013, 10:10 AM
  #601
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Depends on whether or not a poster likes or dislikes the player in question.
I don't even think it's that necessarily. If I say he went pointless in 7 of 12 games that doesn't tell the full story either.

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05-01-2013, 10:21 AM
  #602
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I don't know about re-signing him... IF we can re-sign him on a good contract, it'll be worth it.

We really need to evaluate whether or not his play/contract warrants giving up that second round pick.

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05-01-2013, 10:29 AM
  #603
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Still don't see the sense in re-signing a guy just so we can spend the next 3+ years wondering if he can play out the remainder of his deal. The guy is falling apart.

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05-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Still don't see the sense in re-signing a guy just so we can spend the next 3+ years wondering if he can play out the remainder of his deal. The guy is falling apart.
I don't see the "falling apart". He has been good for the Rangers. He has never been a speedster. Shanahan was not either when he came over.

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05-01-2013, 10:39 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I don't see the "falling apart". He has been good for the Rangers. He has never been a speedster. Shanahan was not either when he came over.
Hes out with a concussion on a collision that was anything but major. His statistically poor season is excused because of a shoulder injury.

If you dont see that the guy is falling apart, you should open your eyes.

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05-01-2013, 10:40 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Interesting how all the sudden draft picks have value around here.
The funny part about it is that if it is a concussion, its not even the type of injury that would lend credence to the argument that his body is falling apart. Concussions happen to players at every level of play. It isn't like he has a history of them. And it is pretty much the one injury that he could have gotten that does not support that point of view (that he is falling apart). Yet people still come here to say "SEE, TOLD YA, HIS BODY IS FALLING APART," or jump on the dump-him bandwagon at the first bump in the road.

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05-01-2013, 10:44 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
The funny part about it is that if it is a concussion, its not even the type of injury that would lend credence to the argument that his body is falling apart. Concussions happen to players at every level of play. It is pretty much the one injury that he could have gotten that does not support that point of view. Yet people still come here to say "SEE, TOLD YA, HIS BODY IS FALLING APART," or jump on the dump-him bandwagon at the first bump in the road.
Would you consider Clowe's concussion to come on a major collision? Like Sauer's?

No, me neither. The cumulative effects of concussions make it easier and easier to get additional ones. Even without the head injury, the guy is a beat up hockey player.

I think its absurd people are willing to hand him a 3 or 4 year deal. Absolutely absurd. You can see it as an issue from 100 miles away, but some fans STILL cant help themselves

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05-01-2013, 10:52 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Would you consider Clowe's concussion to come on a major collision? Like Sauer's?

No, me neither. The cumulative effects of concussions make it easier and easier to get additional ones. Even without the head injury, the guy is a beat up hockey player.

I think its absurd people are willing to hand him a 3 or 4 year deal. Absolutely absurd. You can see it as an issue from 100 miles away, but some fans STILL cant help themselves
It doesn't even have to be a major collision. Lindros got a concussion from his own stick coming back and hitting him.

If it is a concussion, then that further says stay away to me. If he's not going into the dirty areas and becomes a perimeter player, he doesn't serve a great purpose.

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05-01-2013, 10:58 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Would you consider Clowe's concussion to come on a major collision? Like Sauer's?

No, me neither.
The type of collision really doesn't matter for concussions. If you're really going to blame a concussion on the fact that he's "old" (30 y/o...) and his body is falling apart, then I just don't know what to say. Go run into someone's elbow-pad protected elbow with your face. Tell me how you feel.

I personally don't think Clowe's (relatively minor) injury history is a reason to turn up our noses at the guy. He's not like a Gaborik who has been chronically injured his entire career (though even in Gabby's case, that isn't why I personally wanted him gone). Staal has had a concussion. Nash may have too. Hey - Nash also had groin problems. Boyle has now potentially had multiple concussions. Callahan has had more injuries than I can count over his career. Are all of these players on the verge of falling apart too? Are their careers over? It is a physical sport. Injuries happen.

Now I'm not saying the concern for him playing the type of game that lends itself to deterioration as he ages isn't a valid concern. Just saying that this particular example being used to try to prove that point is about as much bs as you can get.


EDIT: Missed this on the first read through:

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The cumulative effects of concussions make it easier and easier to get additional ones.
This is absolutely true. Agreed. Does he have a history of concussions though? As far as I'm aware, he does not.

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05-01-2013, 11:03 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Then you're a fool. The type of collision really doesn't matter for concussions. If you're really going to blame a concussion on the fact that he's "old" (30 y/o...) and his body is falling apart, then I just don't know what to say. Go run into someone's elbow-pad protected elbow with your face. Tell me how you feel.

I personally don't think Clowe's (relatively minor) injury history is a reason to turn up our noses at the guy. He's not like a Gaborik who has been chronically injured his entire career (though even in Gabby's case, that isn't why I personally wanted him gone). Staal has had a concussion. Nash may have too. Hey - Nash also had groin problems. Boyle has now potentially had multiple concussions. Callahan has had more injuries than I can count over his career. Are all of these players on the verge of falling apart too? Are their careers over? It is a physical sport. Injuries happen.

Now I'm not saying the concern for him playing the type of game that lends itself to deterioration as he ages isn't a valid concern. Just saying that this particular example being used to try to prove that point is about as much bs as you can get.
Youve tried to lecture about concussions, but its quite clear you just dont understand.

The day you get your first concussion, you are more susceptible to get another one. And so it goes.

The season that Callahan or Nash or whoever's production falls of a damn cliff, then yes, Ill raise concerns about them declining.

Clowe is there now, so thats why we're having the discussion about him. Get it? For me, this conversation goes beyond his injury history or the concussion, or one single event. Its more about his production clearly declining and folks wanting to hand him a multi-year deal. Why invite that trouble?

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05-01-2013, 11:05 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hes out with a concussion on a collision that was anything but major. His statistically poor season is excused because of a shoulder injury.

If you dont see that the guy is falling apart, you should open your eyes.


You don't know much about concussions

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05-01-2013, 11:09 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Youve tried to lecture about concussions, but its quite clear you just dont understand.
Coming from someone who was trying to say the collision was a minor one, so he shouldn't be concussed unless he's falling apart... The irony is thick. Seriously. If it was that minor -- please, go run into an elbow-pad protected elbow with your face. I'm not joking. Tell me how you feel after.


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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The day you get your first concussion, you are more susceptible to get another one. And so it goes.
Agreed. Edited my original post when I saw that you said this. But are you at the same time going to jump all over Nash, Boyle, Staal for their concussions? Are we to devalue them because they now might be more susceptible to one? It is an unfortunate consequence of a physical game.


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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The season that Callahan or Nash or whoever's production falls of a damn cliff, then yes, Ill raise concerns about them declining.

Clowe is there now, so thats why we're having the discussion about him. Get it?
You see him falling off a cliff. I see him having a bad/off season that wasn't even that awful. As I have said before, I'm completely fine taking him as a 45 point player.

EDIT: And apologies for the you're a fool comment. It was unnecessary - and I was hoping to edit it out before anyone saw it.


Last edited by Richter Scale: 05-01-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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05-01-2013, 11:18 AM
  #613
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You guys are really missing the entire point of the concussion in a feeble attempt to defend the flawed argument of re-signing this tomato can.

I know you're ignoring the recent history of Ryane Clowe - I mean, how else can you defend handing him a 3-4 year contract unless you have blinders on? Anyway, he suffered a concussion in early 2012 and tried to play trough it. Im sure if I went further back into Clowe's career, considering his style of play, I'd find more. As SBOB pointed out, things got so bad with Lindros that hitting himself with his stick caused a concussion.

Now, maybe Clowe's latest concussion was just a freak accident. If you believe that, youre ignoring history. Thats enough to be concerned about committing to him long term. And thats not even getting into his declining production over the last 2 years, which is an even bigger issue.

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05-01-2013, 11:22 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post

EDIT: And apologies for the you're a fool comment. It was unnecessary - and I was hoping to edit it out before anyone saw it.
Thats quite alright. Ive been called much worse. Off and on these boards.

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05-01-2013, 11:26 AM
  #615
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You don't know much about concussions
Seriously? Are you denying that a history of concussions makes you more susceptible to them going forward?

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05-01-2013, 11:27 AM
  #616
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Anyway, he suffered a concussion in early 2012 and tried to play trough it.
Didn't know that. Knew about his knee problems a few years back and his shoulder issues this year. If what you say is true (source?), then the proximity of the two concussions would give me some concern. That said, I'd hope the Rangers organization would consider that in what they do with him. If they decide they think it isn't going to be a persistent problem, then I'm willing to trust them and am still not outright opposed to re-signing him, as I think he brings some valuable things to the table.

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05-01-2013, 11:36 AM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Richter Scale View Post
Didn't know that. Knew about his knee problems a few years back and his shoulder issues this year. If what you say is true (source?), then the proximity of the two concussions would give me some concern. That said, I'd hope the Rangers organization would consider that in what they do with him. If they decide they think it isn't going to be a persistent problem, then I'm willing to trust them and am still not outright opposed to re-signing him, as I think he brings some valuable things to the table.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/342645...ts-player_news

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What's disturbing is that Clowe apparently suffered a concussion at some point during the second half of the season. It's not clear if his concussion corresponded with the time he missed in January due to a facial injury. "He'll tell you he didn't have the greatest year," Sharks GM Doug Wilson said. "There are excuses and there are reasons; I think with Clowie there were some reasons."

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05-01-2013, 12:08 PM
  #618
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Seriously? Are you denying that a history of concussions makes you more susceptible to them going forward?
Where did I write that?

The ferocity of the hit does not matter. It does not indicate whether he will be more susceptible in the future either.

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05-01-2013, 12:15 PM
  #619
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Want no part of Clowe at any deal.

Just keep our 2nd round pick.

When he was healthy, aside from his first game, he didn't show me anything that made me say, "Oh man, thats just what this team needed".

He was a very good player, but his style of play put him on the decline a lot quicker then most players at his age.

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05-01-2013, 12:26 PM
  #620
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This is absolutely true. Agreed. Does he have a history of concussions though? As far as I'm aware, he does not.
Recent medical evidence suggests this is not absolutely true. There is a belief that concussions are more likely to be recurrent ...if the new injury occurs before symptoms from the previous concussion have completely resolved.

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05-01-2013, 01:01 PM
  #621
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I don't see the "falling apart". He has been good for the Rangers. He has never been a speedster. Shanahan was not either when he came over.
His shoulder has been shot for most of the year. He's getting progressively slower with each season when he was already painfully slow to begin with. Now he has a concussion which is very tough injury for a guy who makes a lot of noise with his fists. The science around concussions is sketchy at best, but many people believe it makes him more susceptible to additional concussions.

I think he's been pretty mediocre since he arrived. Shanahan was much different. He was several years older and yet still put up a PPG season in Detroit. However, you saw how quickly his body broke down. It's what happens to guys who play a hard-nosed game like this. Eventually the body just says "enough" and their game falls off a cliff.

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05-01-2013, 01:15 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
His shoulder has been shot for most of the year. He's getting progressively slower with each season when he was already painfully slow to begin with. Now he has a concussion which is very tough injury for a guy who makes a lot of noise with his fists. The science around concussions is sketchy at best, but many people believe it makes him more susceptible to additional concussions.

I think he's been pretty mediocre since he arrived. Shanahan was much different. He was several years older and yet still put up a PPG season in Detroit. However, you saw how quickly his body broke down. It's what happens to guys who play a hard-nosed game like this. Eventually the body just says "enough" and their game falls off a cliff.
I just see people writing off a unique player who knows how to play his style of game. I am not saying he will be a HUGE producer, but if you can sign him for anything near 3-3.5 million I take that and run. At that salary, for what he provides in terms of production (35-45 points), toughness and leadership he is worth it. He is the exact type of player you love to have on a line with young players.

Prust got 2.5. Clowe @ 3.5 is the better investment.

I am not saying just give him whatever. What I am saying is that for how unique of a player he is, these injuries do not concern me. He is not 35.

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05-01-2013, 01:31 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
I just see people writing off a unique player who knows how to play his style of game. I am not saying he will be a HUGE producer, but if you can sign him for anything near 3-3.5 million I take that and run. At that salary, for what he provides in terms of production (35-45 points), toughness and leadership he is worth it. He is the exact type of player you love to have on a line with young players.

Prust got 2.5. Clowe @ 3.5 is the better investment.

I am not saying just give him whatever. What I am saying is that for how unique of a player he is, these injuries do not concern me. He is not 35.
People are writing him off because we can't afford to invest money in players who look like they're breaking down. Point production is the kind of thing that separates Clowe from the Prusts of the world. If he's not scoring 50 points a year, why not target a guy who will give you 30 points but is younger, cheaper, and has the speed to keep up with the game?

If he wants a one or two year deal to prove he's healthy, fine, but I'm not comfortable with 3+ years.

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05-01-2013, 02:06 PM
  #624
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Clowe's a smarter player and a much better locker room presence. You can't measure locker room presence? Look at the night and day change in the demeanor and play of the Rangers after they lost Prust, Dubinsky, and Rupp... Those were GOOD locker room guys. Torres is not. Clowe is.
Smarter but less effective player.

Prust, Dubinsky are nice locker room guys, but they are far better hockey players than anyone else in the bottom 6. That's why the Rangers struggled out of the gate. Rupp did nothing for this team, he is useless as is Clowe.

Using a mystical leadership attribute to excuse piss poor play and injuries reminds me of when we had Drury.

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05-01-2013, 02:06 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
People are writing him off because we can't afford to invest money in players who look like they're breaking down. Point production is the kind of thing that separates Clowe from the Prusts of the world. If he's not scoring 50 points a year, why not target a guy who will give you 30 points but is younger, cheaper, and has the speed to keep up with the game?

If he wants a one or two year deal to prove he's healthy, fine, but I'm not comfortable with 3+ years.
If he scores 45 points and add's toughness and leadership he is worth the money. If he was scoring 50+ points he would be looking at 4-5 million/season easily. Guys like him don't grow on trees.

After a pretty bad shoulder injury which he attempted to play through to help the team he was on pace for ~40 points in 82 games. That's with playing with a significant injury.

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