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Do We Need a More Defensive System?

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Old
05-01-2013, 01:02 PM
  #26
CSKA1974
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Other than our lack of success against the Rangers and Devils, every team deals with all those issues. Did you see how awful the Kings were in their own zone last night? Completely outworked by the Blues, but Quick bailed them out, until Quick had a tape to tape pass to Steen behind the net.

A goalie with Bryz's contract needs to be a mistake eraser, and he's obviously not. That's all I'll say to avoid this becoming another goaltending thread.
There is only one J. Quick; and LA can afford some defencive sloppiness because of him.... But they usually don't. They play very responsible defencively as a team.

In my opinion, either a system needs to be working with and for personnel currently employed, or the personnel/ manager need to be replaced.

You can't expect Tata production factories to build Lexuses well.

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05-01-2013, 01:07 PM
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You can't expect Tata production factories to build Lexuses well.
That's actually how Yugos came around. "Zastava, you are good at making guns. So you'll probably be good at making cars." That didn't really flesh out as hoped.

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05-01-2013, 01:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
That's actually how Yugos came around. "Zastava, you are good at making guns. So you'll probably be good at making cars." That didn't really flesh out as hoped.
i did not know that. I grew up with russian miracle autos.... It was a miracle that they worked.

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05-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #29
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i did not know that. I grew up with russian miracle autos.... It was a miracle that they worked.
Gorky Park does a good job of capturing the "mystique" of such vehicles.

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05-01-2013, 01:14 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Other than our lack of success against the Rangers and Devils, every team deals with all those issues. Did you see how awful the Kings were in their own zone last night? Completely outworked by the Blues, but Quick bailed them out, until Quick had a tape to tape pass to Steen behind the net.

A goalie with Bryz's contract needs to be a mistake eraser, and he's obviously not. That's all I'll say to avoid this becoming another goaltending thread.
The Kings found someone that plays exactly like they do. play physical, play good team D and get really good goaltending. The Blues were obviously the better team last night. I am still expecting a long physical series there.
As far as Bryz goes yeah, I agree. People think the caphit doesnt matter. it does matter. if Briere's caphit matters for what he gives production wise then it matters for Bryzgalov. I am not sure why people want to brush that caphit by Bryz under the rug and not do it for anyone else.
bottom line for me is tho, we need to find a goalie who will give more then just pedestrian numbers. The Flyers arent going to beat anyone when your goalie struggles to stay above .900 on a consistent basis. I dont care if he makes 6 million or the league average.
The system could use some tweaking but still shots against were down and blocked shots were up from the previous season. 2 things that should of mattered. it didn't.

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05-01-2013, 01:27 PM
  #31
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No not really. The team started to play much better defensively the last 15 or so games, and that was with a horrible patchwork defensive corp. If the defense can be upgraded/get(and stay) healthy then we might be ok. Though if the goal tending poops the bed I'm not sure how much it will matter. We'll see.

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05-01-2013, 01:33 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I'm pretty certain they are making a grave mistake doubling down on Lavi and Bryz.......I hope I'm wrong.
So we hope that Bryz can either extend his "one good month a season" habit to a lengthier period or that Mason doesn't revert to suck....

Eep.

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05-01-2013, 01:34 PM
  #33
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Hell, this year we didn't even get one good month.

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05-01-2013, 01:41 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Hell, this year we didn't even get one good month.
Abbreviated season, abbreviated month... *sigh*

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05-01-2013, 01:44 PM
  #35
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One specific aspect on which the defense needs to work is rebound control and clearing. Both Flyers goalies give up pretty juicy rebounds and the defensive positioning should be geared towards blocking out the charging opponent and/or jumping on the loose pucks.

As well, the defensive coverage needs a unit feel to it rather than the mad puck chase in its current form. They need to identify the soft places into which opponents are regularly sliding for key scoring opportunities. Their stickwork is pretty good and their shot blocking is among the best in the league. I like the hard pressure at the points, but so often they simply miss the puck or make horrible decisions when they get it.

Forwards have to go back to NHL elementary school about making and receiving passes. It is my belief that they would have had a much better outcome, significantly lowered goals against and raised goals for with good, sound breakouts with speed. How often did a Flyer pounce on a puck in the defensive zone, only to:
  • make a terrible pass that gets picked off and lead to more pressure in their zone
  • miss their passing target, resulting in an icing
  • have the passing target flub receipt of the pass, negating a potentially dangerous rush?

Finally, they should spend some time about being careful with positioning and movement right around the net to avoid the numerous own-goals off unfortunate bounces and deflections.

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05-01-2013, 01:54 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
One specific aspect on which the defense needs to work is rebound control and clearing. Both Flyers goalies give up pretty juicy rebounds and the defensive positioning should be geared towards blocking out the charging opponent and/or jumping on the loose pucks.

As well, the defensive coverage needs a unit feel to it rather than the mad puck chase in its current form. They need to identify the soft places into which opponents are regularly sliding for key scoring opportunities. Their stickwork is pretty good and their shot blocking is among the best in the league. I like the hard pressure at the points, but so often they simply miss the puck or make horrible decisions when they get it.

Forwards have to go back to NHL elementary school about making and receiving passes. It is my belief that they would have had a much better outcome, significantly lowered goals against and raised goals for with good, sound breakouts with speed. How often did a Flyer pounce on a puck in the defensive zone, only to:
  • make a terrible pass that gets picked off and lead to more pressure in their zone
  • miss their passing target, resulting in an icing
  • have the passing target flub receipt of the pass, negating a potentially dangerous rush?

Finally, they should spend some time about being careful with positioning and movement right around the net to avoid the numerous own-goals off unfortunate bounces and deflections.
I'm on board with all of this. The question is, is Lavi the kind of coach who can adequately work on these things?

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05-01-2013, 01:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Hell, this year we didn't even get one good month.
He was the team MVP during the first half. Where the hell were you?

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05-01-2013, 02:05 PM
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He was the team MVP during the first half. Where the hell were you?
1 good month automatically means that goaltending was and never was an issue this season.


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05-01-2013, 02:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm on board with all of this. The question is, is Lavi the kind of coach who can adequately work on these things?
Agreed, BP NAILED it with his assessment. However, if history is an indicator, then... that's a resounding NO.

So I guess all we can hope for is that Lavy will find something that we don't see in him or that we find a good, AVAILABLE replacement that can do that... Any ideas?

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05-01-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm on board with all of this. The question is, is Lavi the kind of coach who can adequately work on these things?
I agree that those are all issues but I think they are more the result of Lavi's system of stretch passing than a lack of fundamentals by the players. The long outlet passes up the ice make it A. harder for the passing player to accurately hit their target and B. harder for the receiving player to handle a pass with such high velocity on it.

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05-01-2013, 02:13 PM
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If they miss the playoffs again, I think Lavi and Bryz will definitely be gone for the 14-15 season, and I think Homer will probably be fired, too.

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05-01-2013, 02:44 PM
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If they miss the playoffs again, I think Lavi and Bryz will definitely be gone for the 14-15 season, and I think Homer will probably be fired, too.
Homer better be fired along with those two if they underachieve again...I believe Lavi will still be the first to go at some point during the season unless Homer somehow lands at least two big impact players which doesn't seem likely. Otherwise, lots of Flyers will need to have career years for Lavi to stick around or Homer for that matter. Bryz I doubt will redeem himself enough to cover that contract...

This is a make or break offseason for Homer IMO..kind of like the offseason where he dealt Richards and Carter after the Boston debacle. He redeemed himself IMO that offseason with the returns he got (part of it due to Howson's stupidity) but this past offseason he definitely regressed and the team suffered for it as a result.

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05-01-2013, 03:15 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm on board with all of this. The question is, is Lavi the kind of coach who can adequately work on these things?
Honestly most of that sounds like stuff that the assistant coaches should be working on not the head coach.

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05-01-2013, 03:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Homer better be fired along with those two if they underachieve again...I believe Lavi will still be the first to go at some point during the season unless Homer somehow lands at least two big impact players which doesn't seem likely. Otherwise, lots of Flyers will need to have career years for Lavi to stick around or Homer for that matter. Bryz I doubt will redeem himself enough to cover that contract...

This is a make or break offseason for Homer IMO..kind of like the offseason where he dealt Richards and Carter after the Boston debacle. He redeemed himself IMO that offseason with the returns he got (part of it due to Howson's stupidity) but this past offseason he definitely regressed and the team suffered for it as a result.
I agree unless Homer does something amazing this off season to justify keeping him to me they both go if the team misses the playoffs (unless there a bunch of injuries to important players or something then it's boarderline). I don't see how Homer should get off the hook since he hired the coach and put the team together.

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05-01-2013, 03:25 PM
  #45
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I agree that those are all issues but I think they are more the result of Lavi's system of stretch passing than a lack of fundamentals by the players. The long outlet passes up the ice make it A. harder for the passing player to accurately hit their target and B. harder for the receiving player to handle a pass with such high velocity on it.
Well, they stoppped doing those stretch passes as their go-to move pretty early on this year when it was clear they weren't working, which was actually something that carried over from the last month or two of the 2012 season. They started having forwards hang back to accept shorter passes instead of sending them all forward and trying to bomb the puck to them. A lot of the failed passes were relatively short, and a lot of them were actually made by forwards, not defensemen. They often just tried to get a pass to the defensive blue line, and often failed because they were dumb passes to people who were surrounded by opposition players. I don't know how often a dman behind the goal line would hand off to a foward, who would immediately try to pass to someone who was along the boards and had a man or two on him, leaving him with no options. The result: puck stays in the zone, likely a turnover as well. It was a dumb breakout plan, and they did it repeatedly with no alteration.

It's like Lavi made the one adjustment to the breakout early on, and then nothing else afterwards.

Edit: I had a bit of a revelation about this last night. The puck often stayed on one side of the rink, where the opposing team would be concentrating their efforts anyways. Watching the Kings and Blues, they would pass to the other side where there was more room, and bring it up ice. The Flyers weren't doing this. They rarely brought the puck to open areas, they were often trying to force it through traffic. No wonder they fall victim to anything that clogs the neutral zone or resembles a trap. They're content to just skate right on into it.

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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
Honestly most of that sounds like stuff that the assistant coaches should be working on not the head coach.

You're right. I mean, this is why they're here, right? The head coach can't worry about every single detail. It's worrisome that nobody on the coaching staff figured out a solution after 2 months of nonsense.


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05-01-2013, 03:38 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, they stoppped doing those stretch passes as their go-to move pretty early on this year when it was clear they weren't working, which was actually something that carried over from the last month or two of the 2012 season. They started having forwards hang back to accept shorter passes instead of sending them all forward and trying to bomb the puck to them. A lot of the failed passes were relatively short, and a lot of them were actually made by forwards, not defensemen. They often just tried to get a pass to the defensive blue line, and often failed because they were dumb passes to people who were surrounded by opposition players. I don't know how often a dman behind the goal line would hand off to a foward, who would immediately try to pass to someone who was along the boards and had a man or two on him, leaving him with no options. The result: puck stays in the zone, likely a turnover as well. It was a dumb breakout plan, and they did it repeatedly with no alteration.

It's like Lavi made the one adjustment to the breakout early on, and then nothing else afterwards.

They adjusted toward the end with the forwards supporting the D closer but we still have a decent amount of turnover prone forwards like Simmonds et al and tight checking teams still stifle the flyers both in the neutral zone and in our own end once they establish a hard forecheck. The latter is painful to watch....Scotty Bowman supposedly said he couldn't even figure out any schemes with the way our D was constituted.

Holmgren has a lot of personnel decisions to make to support his coach who isn't exactly the biggest out of the box thinker either. Adding an "extra layer" of D wasn't exactly seamless and seemed to inhibit the offense a lot. It was an improvement though and got some wins against the Rangers but not the Devils obviously who had fun playing us.... kind of like Tampa when Lavi's only solution to their trap was to not play hockey...um brilliant! What was funny was how Bouchard basically busted on himself by saying other teams don't seem to have a problem playing against Tampa's D but the Flyers did...guess he would still have a job if he played teams coached by Lavi

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05-01-2013, 03:43 PM
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You're right. I mean, this is why they're here, right? The head coach can't worry about every single detail. It's worrisome that nobody on the coaching staff figured out a solution after 2 months of nonsense.
You are wrong ..we had that big EYE in the sky Paddock

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05-01-2013, 04:41 PM
  #48
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Interesting quote on implementation of the layered D


Quote:
Injuries on the defensive end didn't help - Nick Grossmann, Andrej Meszaros, and Braydon Coburn missed a combined 70 games - and the puck seemed to stick around the Flyers' net way too long. Bryzgalov got a little better at distributing it ....but Laviolette's vision of "layered" defense usually just lay there.

"Our 'D' zone was trying to be like a couple of other teams in our division. We're not used to that system," winger Scott Hartnell told reporters. "We were an attack-oriented team. It seemed like . . . everyone was standing still . . . and we couldn't get much going from the defensive zone."

That's an exacta of finger-pointing right there, putting the blame on the system and its implementation as well as on the other end of the ice. He might be right, too, but in other years just that much locker room dissension was enough to create a real stir. Not this time.

"I think sometimes players tend to overthink these things," Holmgren said calmly.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...y_season_.html

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05-01-2013, 04:51 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Edit: I had a bit of a revelation about this last night. The puck often stayed on one side of the rink, where the opposing team would be concentrating their efforts anyways. Watching the Kings and Blues, they would pass to the other side where there was more room, and bring it up ice. The Flyers weren't doing this. They rarely brought the puck to open areas, they were often trying to force it through traffic. No wonder they fall victim to anything that clogs the neutral zone or resembles a trap. They're content to just skate right on into it.
Just to piggyback, they're just not a patient group. Part of that is the youth, but when you see the same things happen over and over again, you have to wonder why it hasn't been corrected from a coaching standpoint. Offensive zone, we should be fine. But that D/Neutral zone is such an issue -- and that's a problem that good teams/contenders don't have.

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05-01-2013, 10:24 PM
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We all know Ed Snider isn't getting any younger. But he needs to be patient; this season was a huge anomaly in terms of injuries, lack of training camp etc.

Ed Snider: Thank you for spending to the cap every year…. Still upset you made Homer go out and get Bryz.

Homer: As disappointed as I was with the Parise, Sutter, Weber, Jagr debacle; he at least tried to make deals to make this club better…. And Matt Carle is gone!

Laviolette: No training camp makes me give him a small pass, and there aren’t really any other coaches that are available right now…. The two things that make me mad with Lavy is his inability to beat the Devils and Rangers, and the fact he sat Couturier all year and only played him in defensive situations.

Bryzgalov: I am not a hater, but I can’t support the lack of trying on ice and off. His stats are not that of a 5.7 million dollar cap hit goalie. I understand our defense was terrible this year with injuries, but even off the ice his interviews make it seems like he doesn’t care. Buy him out this summer or wait till next summer… Im fine with either.
Briere: Never showed up this year, not sure how much of the wrist injury from Europe was a part of that, but he underperformed to his cap hit. Sorry, but buy out time.

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