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Marc Staal to Canes

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Old
05-01-2013, 09:45 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
What? He was "the guy" in NY long before McDonagh even touched NHL ice, and since McDonagh arrived, he's been paired with guys like Stralman, Eminger, Bickel and Del Zotto and has managed to still be stellar defensively.
Interesting to note how you've completely ignored Girardi, Staal's longtime D partner.

Again, whether it's Girardi or McDonagh, Staal would not have that caliber of partner or depth on the blueline in Carolina. He would have to be the guy in a wholly different sense. You're also overlooking the differences in Torts vs. Muller's systems. I'm not saying MStaal is simply a product of a conservative D-oriented scheme, but the challenge is different in Carolina's more aggressive system.

Regardless, a Murphy + #5 pick + prospect is way too much from a Canes' perspective.

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05-01-2013, 09:58 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Interesting to note how you've completely ignored Girardi, Staal's longtime D partner.
Not really interesting at all. Girardi has struggled when he wasn't paired with a mobile defender that could cover his mistakes. I.e., McDonagh or Staal. Staal was the anchor on the Staal/Girardi pairing, just like he's been the anchor with every player he's been paired with.

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Again, whether it's Girardi or McDonagh, Staal would not have that caliber of partner or depth on the blueline in Carolina. He would have to be the guy in a wholly different sense. You're also overlooking the differences in Torts vs. Muller's systems. I'm not saying MStaal is simply a product of a conservative D-oriented scheme, but the challenge is different in Carolina's more aggressive system.
How about Stralman? Do you have anyone better than him on your blue line? Because as I said, he's spent a the majority of time paired with guys like Stralman, Eminger and Del Zotto over the last two seasons and has still looked absolutely fantastic.

Staal wouldn't have any problems playing in Muller's system. He's a big, mobile defender who has tremendous hockey IQ. You could put him on the ice with whatever system you want and pair him with just about any NHL capable defender and he would be excel. There's nothing extraordinary about Muller's system that would give Staal problems.

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05-01-2013, 10:04 AM
  #103
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Will he play another game before the draft? His vision is still blurred.

https://twitter.com/AGrossRecord/sta...15282624118785

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05-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #104
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Will he play another game before the draft? His vision is still blurred.

https://twitter.com/AGrossRecord/sta...15282624118785
Get a new schtick man

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05-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #105
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Staal wouldn't have any problems playing in Muller's system. He's a big, mobile defender who has tremendous hockey IQ. You could put him on the ice with whatever system you want and pair him with just about any NHL capable defender and he would be excel. There's nothing extraordinary about Muller's system that would give Staal problems.
And therein is the rub. The Canes need to overhaul their D and paying that kind of price for MStaal doesn't make sense, especially when you then look at the cap constraints.

I've mostly praised Staal but some have gotten bothered because I don't agree that he is elite. Also, I didn't say he'd have problems in Muller's system but rather that the challenge would be difficult. Trust me, I'm very familiar with Torts' system and there are more differences than you acknowledge.

Again, I'd wait until he's a UFA. Mortgaging the future when there are so many holes makes no sense.

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05-01-2013, 11:29 AM
  #106
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I've mostly praised Staal but some have gotten bothered because I don't agree that he is elite.
In all fairness, the only thing seperating Marc from 'elite' status on these boards, is a booming shot. If you don't think he's an elite dmen, then I don't think you've watched enough of Marc throughout his career.

Marc played well in Renney's system that had a couple of different looks, varying from the Jagr days and then the Gomez/Drury days.

When Torts came to NY his system was a little more uptempo than now, and Marc played exceptionall well.

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Again, I'd wait until he's a UFA. Mortgaging the future when there are so many holes makes no sense.
What's Carolina prepared to offer Marc as a free-agent?

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05-01-2013, 11:51 AM
  #107
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What's Carolina prepared to offer Marc as a free-agent?
All the money.

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05-01-2013, 12:09 PM
  #108
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All the money.
Doesn't answer my question.

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05-01-2013, 12:17 PM
  #109
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Doesn't answer my question.
We're going to give Marc a max contract, thus making your oncoming (and irrelevant) point about how the Rangers can and will beat it pointless.

We're not speculating Marc Staal to Carolina because Carolina can offer more money than the Rangers. That's just not true. What we can offer him is something that the Rangers, or the 28 other teams in the League, can not. And that's the opportunity to play with his brothers.

We'll probably offer Marc a deal similar to the one Jordan got. 5.5-6 million a year until the end of time.

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05-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  #110
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And therein is the rub. The Canes need to overhaul their D and paying that kind of price for MStaal doesn't make sense, especially when you then look at the cap constraints.

I've mostly praised Staal but some have gotten bothered because I don't agree that he is elite. Also, I didn't say he'd have problems in Muller's system but rather that the challenge would be difficult. Trust me, I'm very familiar with Torts' system and there are more differences than you acknowledge.

Again, I'd wait until he's a UFA. Mortgaging the future when there are so many holes makes no sense.
I don't see any difference between "problems" and the "challenge would be difficult", but I'll bite: What exactly is so challenging about Muller's system? How is it different than Tortorella's system that you're so familiar with?

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05-01-2013, 12:47 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Gotta love that homer logic.

Actually, I've seen quite a bit of him but believe what you like. So it would seem that you're taking exception with my opinion that he isn't elite. Is that it? He's a very good shutdown D but in my opinion not a D at the elite level. Then again my opinion is not clouded by being a fan of the team on which he plays.

In no way is MStaal worth essentially 2 top 12 draft picks plus a prospect. Not to Carolina anyway. He'd have to be the guy and will not play with anyone close to caliber of his McDonagh.
And this right here just proves my point. Thank you.

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05-01-2013, 12:50 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Interesting to note how you've completely ignored Girardi, Staal's longtime D partner.

Again, whether it's Girardi or McDonagh, Staal would not have that caliber of partner or depth on the blueline in Carolina. He would have to be the guy in a wholly different sense. You're also overlooking the differences in Torts vs. Muller's systems. I'm not saying MStaal is simply a product of a conservative D-oriented scheme, but the challenge is different in Carolina's more aggressive system.

Regardless, a Murphy + #5 pick + prospect is way too much from a Canes' perspective.
Marc Staal is the Rangers best defenseman. It's really that simple. So the fact that you want to praise Girardi and McDonagh as great players only solidifies our point as Marc is better than both.

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05-01-2013, 01:20 PM
  #113
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Get a new schtick man
Sorry to get in the way of people pretending the major eye injury he suffered this season doesn't affect his future or his trade value.

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05-01-2013, 01:23 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I don't see any difference between "problems" and the "challenge would be difficult", but I'll bite: What exactly is so challenging about Muller's system? How is it different than Tortorella's system that you're so familiar with?
I actually meant "different" as I wrote in the initial post. But it's more than just differences in systems. He'll have to play more minutes because the depth simply isn't there, the Canes more aggressively forecheck, the forward depth and grit isn't there either, and they aren't as accountable in backchecking.

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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Marc Staal is the Rangers best defenseman. It's really that simple. So the fact that you want to praise Girardi and McDonagh as great players only solidifies our point as Marc is better than both.
Gotta love it. Where did I say they were great? The simple point was comparing them to the other Canes Dmen Staal would have to play with in Carolina. But appreciate your perfect execution of pretzel logic.

Lastly, you guys really love getting into the weeds. All because I don't think Staal is elite not worth the stated asking price? So I guess anything other "elite" constitutes disrespect, huh?

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05-01-2013, 01:27 PM
  #115
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Skinner for Staal wouldn't happen. Rangers have an abundance of left wingers and almost no right wingers. Also, the Rangers defense has been mediocre at best without Staal in the lineup this season. He leaves a big hole in the defensive lineup.

Marc Staal is the Rangers' best defenseman, there's no way he's moved unless there's an overpayment, which Skinner isn't. This isn't fantasy hockey, the Rangers don't need to get younger, they're already younger in the lineup than they should be.

A defenseman like Michael Del Zotto would probably be available alot sooner than Marc Staal. Del Zotto is talented, but flawed, so he isn't untouchable in the same regard as Staal is.
What happened to McDonough?

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05-01-2013, 01:32 PM
  #116
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What happened to McDonough?
He's very good as well. Staal is better right now.

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05-01-2013, 01:35 PM
  #117
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Gotta love that homer logic.

Actually, I've seen quite a bit of him but believe what you like. So it would seem that you're taking exception with my opinion that he isn't elite. Is that it? He's a very good shutdown D but in my opinion not a D at the elite level. Then again my opinion is not clouded by being a fan of the team on which he plays.

In no way is MStaal worth essentially 2 top 12 draft picks plus a prospect. Not to Carolina anyway. He'd have to be the guy and will not play with anyone close to caliber of his McDonagh.
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Interesting to note how you've completely ignored Girardi, Staal's longtime D partner.

Again, whether it's Girardi or McDonagh, Staal would not have that caliber of partner or depth on the blueline in Carolina. He would have to be the guy in a wholly different sense. You're also overlooking the differences in Torts vs. Muller's systems. I'm not saying MStaal is simply a product of a conservative D-oriented scheme, but the challenge is different in Carolina's more aggressive system.

Regardless, a Murphy + #5 pick + prospect is way too much from a Canes' perspective.
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I actually meant "different" as I wrote in the initial post. But it's more than just differences in systems. He'll have to play more minutes because the depth simply isn't there, the Canes more aggressively forecheck, the forward depth and grit isn't there either, and they aren't as accountable in backchecking.


Gotta love it. Where did I say they were great? The simple point was comparing them to the other Canes Dmen Staal would have to play with in Carolina. But appreciate your perfect execution of pretzel logic.

Lastly, you guys really love getting into the weeds. All because I don't think Staal is elite not worth the stated asking price? So I guess anything other "elite" constitutes disrespect, huh?
You said he would not play with someone of "McDonagh's caliber". Please define what you mean by that considering you said Staal was a very good shut-down player, what is the next step for McDonagh in your mind? Very very good? Does that not constitute great?

Either way, you reinforce my point.

Back-peddling at it's finest.

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05-01-2013, 01:46 PM
  #118
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You said he would not play with someone of "McDonagh's caliber". Please define what you mean by that considering you said Staal was a very good shut-down player, what is the next step for McDonagh in your mind? Very very good? Does that not constitute great?

Either way, you reinforce my point.

Back-peddling at it's finest.
Holy hell, man. Are you serious? You're acting as if made a Seidenberg-Chara argument. Not at all.

I'm simply saying that compared to the level of player Staal is used to playing with in NY, he won't have nearly the same quality (or caliber) partner or D corps depth in Carolina. I never said nor implied McDonagh was the superior player but rather that Staal would see a huge drop-off in D play in Carolina.

Is is really that hard to understand? I mean, you quoted all my posts. All there for you read and not one iota of backpedaling and your point seems to be one of confusion. Even if he were paired with Faulk, the rest of the corps is well below that of NYR's.

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05-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #119
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Holy hell, man. Are you serious? You're acting as if made a Seidenberg-Chara argument. Not at all.

I'm simply saying that compared to the level of player Staal is used to playing with in NY, he won't have nearly the same quality (or caliber) partner or D corps depth in Carolina. I never said nor implied McDonagh was the superior player but rather that Staal would see a huge drop-off in D play in Carolina.

Is is really that hard to understand? I mean, you quoted all my posts. All there for you read and not one iota of backpedaling and your point seems to be one of confusion. Even if he were paired with Faulk, the rest of the corps is well below that of NYR's.
The point stands that McDonagh and Girardi have played together consistently for (2) years. Staal has been paired with MDZ and Stralman. The Canes have players of similar talent to them. He would be THE guy in Carolina but he has been THE guy for the Rangers since half-way through his first season.

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05-01-2013, 02:02 PM
  #120
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I actually meant "different" as I wrote in the initial post. But it's more than just differences in systems. He'll have to play more minutes because the depth simply isn't there, the Canes more aggressively forecheck, the forward depth and grit isn't there either, and they aren't as accountable in backchecking.
He was averaging almost 25 minutes this year, and before his concussion, he was averaging over that number. Minutes aren't a problem. The Rangers love to put two guys in on the forecheck and Staal is often left on an island when it comes to backchecking. However, his size, reach and mobility make him extremely difficult to beat on the rush. You said Muller's system would be a challenge for Staal, yet there's nothing here about that system. It's just a "we have some lousy players that don't backcheck" and our defense is shoddy so he'll have to play a lot of minutes.

Idk. You're entitled to your opinion but nothing you've said so far makes me want to buy whatever it is you're selling. I'm just going to bow out now.

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05-01-2013, 02:05 PM
  #121
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The point stands that McDonagh and Girardi have played together consistently for (2) years. Staal has been paired with MDZ and Stralman. The Canes have players of similar talent to them. He would be THE guy in Carolina but he has been THE guy for the Rangers since half-way through his first season.
So, now that you finally understood my point, you're going another route, eh? Don't blame you.

Forgetting for the moment the fact that Staal and Girardi were reunited earlier this year and the fact that they consistently played together for much of Staal's career, you are still missing the point about depth. The Canes don't and won't have that kind of top 4, meaning Staal will have to play more and tougher minutes.

So when Staal plays with MDZ and/or Stralman are you then contending that pair, anchored by Staal, went consistently up against the opponent's top line?

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Idk. You're entitled to your opinion but nothing you've said so far makes me want to buy whatever it is you're selling. I'm just going to bow out now.
You mean the point that the price tag is too high? Yeah, I'll stick with that line of thinking. Of course, you're not going to buy it, as you place an incredibly high value on one of your guys. Nothing wrong or unusual about it but he is not worth that kind of asking price to the Canes. Pure and simple.

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05-01-2013, 02:15 PM
  #122
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--He plays in Carolina's system.
--He had a poor WJC (though based on the two games I saw, it was blown out of proportion).
--He's an undersized, offensive defensemen who was drafted outside the top 10 (like how I haven't heard anything of McIlrath, for example [top 10 remark, not undersized offensive defensman]).
--In almost every Ryan Murphy thread, a strong willed Kitchener fan (who will remain nameless) argues anyone who does not agree that Ryan Murphy is criminally underrated into submission through the glorious tradition of our message board- by responding until the other poster is sick of it.

He played on Carolina this year, and didn't look that terrible as one might expect from an undersized OHL offensive defenseman. Didn't remind me of Bergeron at all (and believe you me, Bergeron has no idea what the **** he is doing compared to Murphy's 8 or so games). He'll be in the NHL next year, moreso because our defense blows than whether he is ready or not.
OT: McIlrath's not an offensive defenseman, just sayin'.

Back on topic: If Staal makes it known to the Rangers front office that he wants to play with his brothers, hopefully they would be able to get something in return for him. Would assume something centered around Faulk/a 1st gets it done. The Staals seem like class acts and I can't see someone like Marc intentionally screwing over the team that drafted, developed, and gave him a job for his entire career thus far.

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05-01-2013, 02:18 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Interesting to note how you've completely ignored Girardi, Staal's longtime D partner.

Again, whether it's Girardi or McDonagh, Staal would not have that caliber of partner or depth on the blueline in Carolina. He would have to be the guy in a wholly different sense. You're also overlooking the differences in Torts vs. Muller's systems. I'm not saying MStaal is simply a product of a conservative D-oriented scheme, but the challenge is different in Carolina's more aggressive system.

Regardless, a Murphy + #5 pick + prospect is way too much from a Canes' perspective.
Staal was the guy who has always carried Girardi and made Girardi look 20x better than he actually is.

It's fine, you don't have to overpay (or pay at all) for Staal. We're perfectly happy with keeping him here and I'm sure he's happy playing on a contending team. Until the day comes where he says "I want to play in Carolina with my brothers", that's pretty much all you're going to hear Ranger fans say unless an overpayment does come from Carolina.

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05-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #124
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Ranger fans overrate Staal, underrate McDonagh.

McDonagh as a sophomore had a better season than what Staal ever had.

He is playing at a similar level this year, but with a bit more lapses in his game.

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05-01-2013, 03:13 PM
  #125
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OT: McIlrath's not an offensive defenseman, just sayin'.

Back on topic: If Staal makes it known to the Rangers front office that he wants to play with his brothers, hopefully they would be able to get something in return for him. Would assume something centered around Faulk/a 1st gets it done. The Staals seem like class acts and I can't see someone like Marc intentionally screwing over the team that drafted, developed, and gave him a job for his entire career thus far.
Faulk will not be dealt for Marc Staal.

One of the Hurricanes' main problems right now is that they lack a 4th top 4 dman. Right now, we have:

Faulk-Gleason
Pitkanen-XXX
Harrison-McBain

As our optimal configuration. Throw in that Gleason is declining and Pitkanen is injured, and we can't afford to give up Faulk. Doing so would make trading for Marc meaningless, as our issue of "one more top 4 d" is still prevalent.

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