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Old
05-01-2013, 02:35 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by flyersgal View Post
The problem is, the organization isn't very good at drafting/developing defensemen. We are strong in our forward scouting/drafting however. Until we get better defensive scouts (I could see Pronger helping here, maybe even Kimmo after he retires), and the proper personnel in Adirondack to develop young defensemen, I have no problem with us filling our defensive holes via free agency and drafting around our strengths. In order to get a young, stud d-man via trade, we'd have to give up young assets, but the Flyers organization has proven time and again that they can strengthen our forward depth via draft, regardless of where we pick. I mean, at draft day last year, everyone was like who the hell is Scott Laughton? Now, he's tearing up the OHL and was competing for a roster spot this year.
This has been mythbusted over and over again...

What reason do you have to believe that this organization can't or doesn't have the ability to develop a defenseman, when we seldom take them in the first round? I think the bigger issue is the teams lack of talent in on the defensive side of the puck in the prospect pool rather than an inability to draft them.

Seriously, I don't understand how our inability to turn defenseman drafted in the 3rd and 4th round into top 4 nhl defenseman alludes to an inability to develop a defenseman. You can't groom what you don't have.

In all likelihood, and I'm not saying that I condone it, but if this team drafts a guy like Darnell Nurse, there's probably about a 90% chance that he's on the opening night roster.

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05-01-2013, 02:36 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by flyersgal View Post
The problem is, the organization isn't very good at drafting/developing defensemen. We are strong in our forward scouting/drafting however. Until we get better defensive scouts (I could see Pronger helping here, maybe even Kimmo after he retires), and the proper personnel in Adirondack to develop young defensemen, I have no problem with us filling our defensive holes via free agency and drafting around our strengths. In order to get a young, stud d-man via trade, we'd have to give up young assets, but the Flyers organization has proven time and again that they can strengthen our forward depth via draft, regardless of where we pick. I mean, at draft day last year, everyone was like who the hell is Scott Laughton? Now, he's tearing up the OHL and was competing for a roster spot this year.


I agree, but perhaps the tide is turning now. Some of the young D guys are bright spots currently.

/optimism

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05-01-2013, 02:48 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
I agree, but perhaps the tide is turning now. Some of the young D guys are bright spots currently.

/optimism
Terry Murray has been bashed for the crappy record of the phantoms, and rightfully so, but he is an excellent teacher for defensemen. The end of the year was a good example of that. So there is justifiable hope.

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05-01-2013, 03:02 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
This has been mythbusted over and over again...

What reason do you have to believe that this organization can't or doesn't have the ability to develop a defenseman, when we seldom take them in the first round? I think the bigger issue is the teams lack of talent in on the defensive side of the puck in the prospect pool rather than an inability to draft them.

Seriously, I don't understand how our inability to turn defenseman drafted in the 3rd and 4th round into top 4 nhl defenseman alludes to an inability to develop a defenseman. You can't groom what you don't have.

In all likelihood, and I'm not saying that I condone it, but if this team drafts a guy like Darnell Nurse, there's probably about a 90% chance that he's on the opening night roster.
I would like to see us take more d-men in the first, but other teams get lucky once in a while with their 2nd and 3rd rounders. Where's our Weber, Subban, Keith, Hjalmarsson, Yandle, etc.?

Isn't part of developing a defenseman sticking with him through his growing pains? I liked the Pronger trade, but we still traded Sbisa there. We gave up on Seidenberg and he's solid for Boston. We traded Pitkanen for a year of Jason Smith and a year and a half of Lupul. The only way we get stud d-men is through trades.

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05-01-2013, 03:19 PM
  #505
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It's hard to draft and develop Dmen when you routinely trade away your D prospects and draft picks. Looks like that tide is turning, let's see if it keeps up.

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05-01-2013, 03:40 PM
  #506
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What would we need to add to Couturier to get Shattenkirk? I cant really come up with a deal that would gauge good value involing Couturier. I was thinking along the line of

Laughton
Coburn
2nd in 2013 or a 1st as a deal breaker.

Im extremely high on Shatty v

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05-01-2013, 03:46 PM
  #507
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^ You and everyone else is high on Shatty. Especially the Blues. I don't see Blues making a trade like that, they really have no issues at forward other than perhaps a superstar goalscorer (which Tarasenko could very well be) and they have no shortage of two-way studs making Couturier and Laughton redundant. I'm sure they could have used Coburn before acquiring Bouwmeester.

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05-01-2013, 03:46 PM
  #508
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Ok, I shouldn't have criticized the Flyers for not developing defensemen if they rarely draft them in the first round. My biggest point is the Flyers are very strong at drafting forwards, then developing them into NHL-level players. So, unless a clearly talented, NHL-ready d-man was available to the Flyers to draft (Jones, Nurse), I don't have an issue with them filling their d holes through trade/free agency. Besides, if we didn't have so many injuries, I truly believe our defense would be one of the top, and all of our top 4 d-men came via trade/free agency. Plus also, none of our d-men's contracts are truly preventing us from improving the team. Pronger can go on LTIR, Mez can be amnestied if we want (although he only has one year left, so we don't really have to amnesty him). Coburn, Schenn, and Grossmann are all locked up at very reasonable cap hits. It also looks like the Flyers do have some young promising d-men in the system right now, so the tide might be turning in terms of the team's approach to drafting d-men. At the end of the day, I just don't care how the Flyers address their issues. As long as they fix the holes, that's all that matters to me.

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05-01-2013, 06:10 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
^ You and everyone else is high on Shatty. Especially the Blues. I don't see Blues making a trade like that, they really have no issues at forward other than perhaps a superstar goalscorer (which Tarasenko could very well be) and they have no shortage of two-way studs making Couturier and Laughton redundant. I'm sure they could have used Coburn before acquiring Bouwmeester.
The Blues have, in my opinion, the best group of wings in the league. Their centers on the other hand are only meh, it's something they could definitely improve on.

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05-01-2013, 06:12 PM
  #510
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The Blues have, in my opinion, the best group of wings in the league. Their centers on the other hand are only meh, it's something they could definitely improve on.
With Andy Mcdonald a free agent at the end of the year they are going to be looking for a 2nd/3rd line center.

If the Flyers are looking at any chance of acquiring their big named defenseman, we should all be rooting for them to lose early. The less revenue they get the better. They never spend to the max cap either, so that 24 million is deceptive.

More than likely they will move a forward to get under their internal budget though.

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05-01-2013, 06:13 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
With Andy Mcdonald a free agent at the end of the year they are going to be looking for a 2nd/3rd line center.

If the Flyers are looking at any chance of acquiring their big named defenseman, we should all be rooting for them to lose early. The less revenue they get the better. They never spend to the max cap either, so that 24 million is deceptive.

More than likely they will move a forward to get under their internal budget though.
Sounds like they could use a guy with a higher cap hit and lower actual salary. I wish we had one of OH WAIT A MINUTE.

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05-01-2013, 06:52 PM
  #512
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IIRC, Andy Mac hasn't been playing center. Backes, Berglund and Sobokta would be their top-3 C's, with only Berglund having a face-off percentage less than 52%. Even if Andy Mac leaves, Tarasenko is a healthy scratch right now - as is Jaskin - both of which could easily be on the team in a similar top-9 scoring role.

Blues really have no reason to be trading Shattenkirk barring extreme overpayment that they'd be stupid not to. They have capspace, nice prospects, a solid line-up, goaltending depth, etc... a very enviable franchise.

---

If we really want to make a run at a defender, Yandle is the one that makes the most sense. I'd rather we draft a stud with the no.11 pick and make some minor signings. Highly unlikely this team can 'fix' the defense in one offseason with the worst UFAs in a while. L. Schenn and Gustafsson are developing quite nicely anyway. 'Selling the farm' with one of the most barren prospect pools on a team that missed the playoffs and is clearly not 'one piece away' is a bad idea.

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05-01-2013, 07:08 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
IIRC, Andy Mac hasn't been playing center. Backes, Berglund and Sobokta would be their top-3 C's, with only Berglund having a face-off percentage less than 52%. Even if Andy Mac leaves, Tarasenko is a healthy scratch right now - as is Jaskin - both of which could easily be on the team in a similar top-9 scoring role.

Blues really have no reason to be trading Shattenkirk barring extreme overpayment that they'd be stupid not to. They have capspace, nice prospects, a solid line-up, goaltending depth, etc... a very enviable franchise.

---

If we really want to make a run at a defender, Yandle is the one that makes the most sense. I'd rather we draft a stud with the no.11 pick and make some minor signings. Highly unlikely this team can 'fix' the defense in one offseason with the worst UFAs in a while. L. Schenn and Gustafsson are developing quite nicely anyway. 'Selling the farm' with one of the most barren prospect pools on a team that missed the playoffs and is clearly not 'one piece away' is a bad idea.
The only problem with the Blues cap space is they never spend to the max. They have spent just under 50 million per year on average for their hockey team. This year they spent 52 million. I remember last year the Blues fans were a little scared of the idea of an offer sheet after the Weber ordeal. Now they changed their attitude since the offseason is closer and it is a little more of a realistic option. I am not saying an offer sheet works, but it will end up like Nashville. They won't insta-match like their GM will say they will.

That's why I said them losing in the playoffs early increases the slim odds there is they have to contemplate trading Shatty or Piety. The offseason is always entertaining and i'm sure if Piety remains unsigned for any extended period of time the rumors will start to swirl about us.

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05-01-2013, 07:46 PM
  #514
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Still don't think it happens either way. When you have an early exit you try to add and improve, not get rid of one of your young stud D-men. The blues are a team that are "one piece away". We are not. I think the only way we should be making any big moves heading up to the draft is if we're bringing back 1sts and/or prospects.

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05-01-2013, 07:47 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by flyersgal View Post
My biggest point is the Flyers are very strong at drafting forwards, then developing them into NHL-level players. So, unless a clearly talented, NHL-ready d-man was available to the Flyers to draft (Jones, Nurse), I don't have an issue with them filling their d holes through trade/free agency. Besides, if we didn't have so many injuries, I truly believe our defense would be one of the top, and all of our top 4 d-men came via trade/free agency.
Nothing wrong with drafting a toward if it is the BPA and it fits with the organizational strength of developing forwards and using other methods like trades and FA for D. -- Unless, like you said-- they really believe they can develop the Dman they draft. It looks like that climate might be better now with Murray and the recent callups.

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05-01-2013, 07:55 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Flyers2point0 View Post
Still don't think it happens either way. When you have an early exit you try to add and improve, not get rid of one of your young stud D-men. The blues are a team that are "one piece away". We are not. I think the only way we should be making any big moves heading up to the draft is if we're bringing back 1sts and/or prospects.
Yes, I don't think so either. Just possibilities being thrown around. The only way this situation gets close to happening is if St Louis low balls him and is cheap in contract negotiations, or Piety wants to move out. Right now both seem extremely unlikely. It is worth keeping an eye on though. Remember nobody thought the Flyer or any team would even be in trade discussions for Weber last year. It also blew people away when we offer sheeted him. I have been trying to find some defenseman under the radar that might be moved, but there isn't much. Big Buff, Yandle are the typical names, maybe Bogo is a surprise player. There just really isn't much out there.

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05-02-2013, 12:30 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
The only problem with the Blues cap space is they never spend to the max. They have spent just under 50 million per year on average for their hockey team. This year they spent 52 million. I remember last year the Blues fans were a little scared of the idea of an offer sheet after the Weber ordeal. Now they changed their attitude since the offseason is closer and it is a little more of a realistic option. I am not saying an offer sheet works, but it will end up like Nashville. They won't insta-match like their GM will say they will.

That's why I said them losing in the playoffs early increases the slim odds there is they have to contemplate trading Shatty or Piety. The offseason is always entertaining and i'm sure if Piety remains unsigned for any extended period of time the rumors will start to swirl about us.
yeah they have there own internal cap. They arent like the Flyers who will spend to within a nickel of the cap and take there chances. maybe that changes for St.Louis in the near future. I still think they lockdown both players before anyone even has a chance to throw a OS at them.

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05-02-2013, 09:16 AM
  #518
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A couple of players to watch for this offseason to be moved are Nino Niederreiter and Alex Burmistrov. Both who were in the dog house and one reportedly asked for a trade. If they could be had for cheap, Flyers should try to make a move for one(Burmy I say first.)

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05-02-2013, 09:36 AM
  #519
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A couple of players to watch for this offseason to be moved are Nino Niederreiter and Alex Burmistrov. Both who were in the dog house and one reportedly asked for a trade. If they could be had for cheap, Flyers should try to make a move for one(Burmy I say first.)
I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap," but I'd be reluctant to part with assets for another young center. Nino is a bit different--but I don't see the Islanders dealing him to the Flyers.

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05-02-2013, 09:41 AM
  #520
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I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap," but I'd be reluctant to part with assets for another young center. Nino is a bit different--but I don't see the Islanders dealing him to the Flyers.
Draft picks. Especially Burmy. He has not produced at all like the Jets would have liked. He is an RFA and has been in the dog house. Winnipeg might want to move on from him. A middling prospect(which is about all we have) and a 3rd rounder. Approach it like that. We shouldn't get caught up where Burmy got drafted but by his on ice production. Change of scenery could help him.

I do agree that Nino probably won't be moved in division, but a player to just watch for. He probably will be moved.

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05-02-2013, 09:47 AM
  #521
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A couple of players to watch for this offseason to be moved are Nino Niederreiter and Alex Burmistrov. Both who were in the dog house and one reportedly asked for a trade. If they could be had for cheap, Flyers should try to make a move for one(Burmy I say first.)
So, Snow wouldn't trade 19 yr old Nino cheaply, when he played like crap in the NHL.

But, he trading him cheaply after making the AHL all-star team and leading the ST in scoring?

Nino's in Snow's doghouse the same way Strome and B. Nelson are in Snow's doghouse .

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05-02-2013, 09:50 AM
  #522
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I've always been a big nino fan. Wish the flyers could grab him, but unfortunately that's a trade that won't happen in the division.

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05-02-2013, 09:51 AM
  #523
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So, Snow wouldn't trade 19 yr old Nino cheaply, when he played like crap in the NHL.

But, he trading him cheaply after making the AHL all-star team and leading the ST in scoring?

Nino's in Snow's doghouse the same way Strome and B. Nelson are in Snow's doghouse .
Being an AHL allstar and an NHL all star a completely different ball games. We have seen players succeed in the AHL and bomb in the NHL. It's not uncommon whatsoever.

Strome is being developed the right way. Nino was thrown right into the mix and now he isn't playing with the big club and is unhappy. He already asked to be moved. A team trying to get him won't/shouldn't offer a first rounder. Late 2nd rounders are more probable.

Also I said these players could (as in it's a possibility, not a definite) be had for cheap. They are two young players who either have been in the dog house or asked for trade. Just was saying to keep and eye out for them to be moved. Not necessarily they will be moved.

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05-02-2013, 09:54 AM
  #524
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Draft picks. Especially Burmy. He has not produced at all like the Jets would have liked. He is an RFA and has been in the dog house. Winnipeg might want to move on from him. A middling prospect(which is about all we have) and a 3rd rounder. Approach it like that. We shouldn't get caught up where Burmy got drafted but by his on ice production. Change of scenery could help him.

I do agree that Nino probably won't be moved in division, but a player to just watch for. He probably will be moved.
Isles have two more yrs in their money losing lease.

Staple wrote a recent trade deadline article, saying to expect an influx of ahl kids on next season's roster, that Snow wants roster holes filled by cheap kids ..Nino, Strome, Nelson, Donovan.

Nino,Snow and Nino's rep have all said they don't expect Nino to be dealt. Message board fans expect Nino to be dealt. Unless the ufa age drops to 20, I doubt Nino goes anywhere anytime soon.

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05-02-2013, 10:00 AM
  #525
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Isles have two more yrs in their money losing lease.

Staple wrote a recent trade deadline article, saying to expect an influx of ahl kids on next season's roster, that Snow wants roster holes filled by cheap kids ..Nino, Strome, Nelson, Donovan.

Nino,Snow and Nino's rep have all said they don't expect Nino to be dealt. Message board fans expect Nino to be dealt. Unless the ufa age drops to 20, I doubt Nino goes anywhere anytime soon.
Message board fans?? I am just going on what was reported by media outlets. I even said he could be moved, but it's not a definite. Just some players to keep your eyes on. He asked to be moved.

Could you link where Snow and his agent said they won't deal him please.

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