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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XXXV

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Old
05-01-2013, 10:05 PM
  #826
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Yeah I think I would probably do Perron and Rattie for Staz and then try to acquire a 3rd line center in a smaller trade. Target a guy like Bolland who might be on the way out of Chicago due to salary.

I don't think in a cap world its realistic to have 3 offensive lines long term, just not possible to assemble and retain the required wing depth

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05-01-2013, 10:12 PM
  #827
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Polak is great, but yet another right handed shot.

If we got offered Perron and Cole, I'd probably do it. What's the deal with Cole anyway? He doesn't appear to have developed all that well. Or maybe I'm wrong.
Cole is a victim of the numbers game is all. He was fine when he was in. He's just been stuck behind Jackman, Russell (a favorite of Hitch) and now J-Bo and Leopold.

Blues have no depth on the right side and are probably still a year or two away before they would move Roman Polak. (Hakanpaa is the next guy in line and he's still at least a year away)

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05-01-2013, 10:21 PM
  #828
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Stastny and Wilson for Perron and Jackman?

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05-01-2013, 10:23 PM
  #829
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No thanks to Perron. I'd want Oshie or Schwartz.

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05-02-2013, 09:11 AM
  #830
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Avs re-sign Lerg and Stollery for the AHL. 37 contracts for the Avs signed for next year. I have to imagine Malone, Vincour, L. Walker, Connolly, and maybe Chouinard get deals too, so just a number to always keep an eye on.

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05-02-2013, 09:52 AM
  #831
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It's gonna be interesting how this season plays out. Unless the Avs can land a veteran defenseman or top line winger with a Stastny trade, I see him sticking around to at least the deadline. By this time the Avs can also see if O'Reilly is worth the cost. Scarbossa might even prove to be the real deal which would definitely require a trade of either Radar or Stas. Personally I would rather see O'Reilly go after his holdout and his lack of speed.

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05-02-2013, 10:07 AM
  #832
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I wish the Avs could get their hands on a Marcus Foligno/Niederreiter type player.

I still feel like this team will be too inexperienced to do any damage next season. Not that a young powerful left winger will help that.

I also don't see a chance for a major team change this offseason. Even if the team started with letting Hejduk and Kobasew walk. Then trading Stastny and Mitchell. Getting rid of two of O'Brien/Hunwick/Zanon. Still leaves almost a full roster.

I guess Downie and Jones* would be "big" additions, but other than that it would still be a very similar team. Of course there is some space for free agents on the forward group, but I doubt the Avs lose that many players or add that many... Hopefully this season was an indication to management that the "core" isn't going to step forward without adding some secondary help.

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Old
05-02-2013, 11:47 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
If the Avs GM, whether it be Sherman or otherwise, were offered Perron and Ty Rattie for just Stastny, then he should, in my opinion, be all over it.

If we draft Jones this summer, suddenly our blueline looks like it has some nice pieces.

EJ
Jones
Barrie
Elliott
Siemens

Not to mention any other players that we have drafted (Beaupre) or that we may draft, or that we've found (Lauridsen) that may pan out.

So again, if that is something that's offered, I'd take it, because our Forward/Wing depth looks kind of bleak right now. Besides Sgarbossa, we have Hishon, but we can't realistically depend on him at this time, maybe if he can stay healthy then that's another story.

So I would personally do a Perron + Rattie for Stastny deal

Agreed. Our Defense goes from a weak point to extremely deep if/when we draft Jones.

Jones, Barrie, Elliott, EJ, Siemens are all guys that are either playing Top 4 minutes already or will be in a year or 2. Then we have Wilson, Beaupre, Laurisden who could be bottom pairing guys for us in a couple of year or are already there(Wilson).

Not to mention Obrien, Hejda, Zanon, Hunwick right now(Although hopefully 2 of the you know who's are moved by next year) who cane play bottom pairing/Nacho eating roles.

Our Forward depth is whats on the weak side though. We have some solid Top 9 talent, but not a whole lot of injury depth or even depth in general.

Duchene, ROR, Stastny make up a very strong 1-2-3 punch. Landy, PAP, and Downie are 3 established capable Top 6 Wingers. Then McGinn and Jones are fringe top 6 guys, though IMO will be best suited on the 3rd line when we get comptetitve.

So, were missing one Top 9 Winger as it is(Maybe McCleod if he plays like he did this year from now on) and then were also missing scoring depth. Vincour and Sgarbossa are pretty decent callups, but both are more suited for a 3rd or 4th line role right now rather then playing a Top 6 role. Hishon is way to unknown to rely on as a Top 6 callup next year, at this point.


Ideall for next year the Avs should sign some Winger depth for injury fillins and just to build overall depth. A Veteran Dman would be nice to, but not entirely necessary if we get Jones.


Stalberg, Raymond, and Macarthur would be my 3 votes for who we sign this summer. But depending on who gets bought out, maybe a Heatley or a Briere for the right price to go on Duchene/Pap's top line.

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Old
05-02-2013, 01:21 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
Agreed. Our Defense goes from a weak point to extremely deep if/when we draft Jones.

Jones, Barrie, Elliott, EJ, Siemens are all guys that are either playing Top 4 minutes already
One of the things that I find more frustrating than any other in this forum, is the wholesale jumping to (usually massively excessive) positive conclusions in regards to Avs prospects. While this post doesn't drop to the (fairly regular) depths of discussing a career AHL-talent guy like he's bound to be a regular 2nd pairing NHL defenseman any day now, it's still way ahead of itself.

Jones and Siemens have not played minute 1 of NHL hockey, Elliott showed maybe a half dozen games of semi-quality NHL defense (if that), and Barrie a quarter of a full season at best. That's it. Yet, the Avs are 'extremely deep'? 'All guys playing Top 4 minutes already'?

Come on, guys. If the Avs draft Jones, the Avs will have a promising prospect pool of defensemen, and until they prove otherwise, that's all they have right now. And while that's better than what they've had (in that respect) for some time, it's still all they have right now.

By the way, if Jones is as good as advertised and makes the NHL out of camp next season, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Barrie and Elliott both start the season in Erie next year - as crazy as that sounds. Unless the Avs are willing to eat contracts, which I don't think they'll do.


Last edited by ABasin: 05-02-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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Old
05-02-2013, 01:34 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
One of the things that I find more frustrating than any other in this forum, is the wholesale jumping to (usually massively excessive) positive conclusions in regards to Avs prospects. While this post doesn't drop to the (fairly regular) depths of discussing a career AHL-talent guy like he's bound to be a regular 2nd pairing NHL defenseman any day now, it's still way ahead of itself.

Jones and Siemens have not played minute 1 of NHL hockey, Elliott showed maybe a half dozen games of semi-quality NHL defense (if that), and Barrie a quarter of a full season at best. That's it. Yet, the Avs are 'extremely deep'? 'All guys playing Top 4 minutes already'?

Come on, guys. If the Avs draft Jones, the Avs will have a promising prospect pool of defensemen, and until they prove otherwise, that's all they have right now. And while that's better than what they've had (in that respect) for some time, it's still all they have right now.
Your counter-argument would go over better if you had actually quoted Pierce's entire quote. He said either playing Top 4 now, or will be in 1-2 years. And the people he was talking about were EJ, Barrie, Elliott, Jones (should we draft him) and Siemens...and those would be players that should easily reach that level.

What I said is that if they were to draft Jones that the Avs blueline would have nice pieces, I wasn't saying that they were bonafide star NHLers.

EJ
Barrie
Elliott

Are all NHLers currently, Elliott showed that with his latest call-up that he belongs in the league. Barrie has shown the same, over the course of the entire year.

I'm not going to get into a debate on EJ with you, because I already understand your opinion, and it differs from mine, but I think we can both agree that he is a quality NHL defender.

I was stating that if we were to draft Jones, he along with Siemens suddenly give the Avs a nice pipeline of Defensive pieces.

I won't however, apologize for being optimistic about our younger Defensive prospects

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Old
05-02-2013, 01:42 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Your counter-argument would go over better if you had actually quoted Pierce's entire quote. He said either playing Top 4 now, or will be in 1-2 years. And the people he was talking about were EJ, Barrie, Elliott, Jones (should we draft him) and Siemens...and those would be players that should easily reach that level.
AB's point doesn't change one bit whether the time period is right now or 1-2 years down the road.

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05-02-2013, 01:47 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
One of the things that I find more frustrating than any other in this forum, is the wholesale jumping to (usually massively excessive) positive conclusions in regards to Avs prospects. While this post doesn't drop to the (fairly regular) depths of discussing a career AHL-talent guy like he's bound to be a regular 2nd pairing NHL defenseman any day now, it's still way ahead of itself.

Jones and Siemens have not played minute 1 of NHL hockey, Elliott showed maybe a half dozen games of semi-quality NHL defense (if that), and Barrie a quarter of a full season at best. That's it. Yet, the Avs are 'extremely deep'? 'All guys playing Top 4 minutes already'?

Come on, guys. If the Avs draft Jones, the Avs will have a promising prospect pool of defensemen, and until they prove otherwise, that's all they have right now. And while that's better than what they've had (in that respect) for some time, it's still all they have right now.

By the way, if Jones is as good as advertised and makes the NHL out of camp next season, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Barrie and Elliott both start the season in Erie next year - as crazy as that sounds. Unless the Avs are willing to eat contracts, which I don't think they'll do.
I agree 100%.

The Avs have a surplus of defensemen but where's the quality? Where's the proven track record of playing 20 minutes a night AND producing playoff level results.

Heck, the Avs had a lot of defensemen this year too. Johnson, Hejda, O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, Barrie, Elliott and Zanon all played this year. The problem this year wasn't the number of defensemen available it was the lack of quality defensemen available. O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson and Zanon are bottom pairing Dmen at best. Hejda is a 2nd pairing Dman. Barrie and Elliott are nowhere close to being top pairing Dmen yet and they may never get to that level. That leaves Johnson who is "probably" a top pairing Dman but his numbers haven't proven that out just yet.

The Avs have a #2 (Johnson), a #4 (Hejda), a bunch of #5's and 6's (O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, Zanon) and then three or four unproven prospects (Barrie, Elliott, Siemens and Jones if he is picked). To reach the playoffs and do more than a first round exit the Avs need at least one quality #1/#2 Dman, at least one quality #3/#4 Dman, and they need to get rid of the dead weight (Wilson, Hunwick, Zanon).

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Old
05-02-2013, 01:49 PM
  #838
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AB's point doesn't change one bit whether the time period is right now or 1-2 years down the road.
I don't care if his opinion doesn't change.

But he shouldn't cut off part of someone's quote, just to make his argument seem more attractive.

Pierce's original statement/opinion/belief has weight to it, in my opinion.

The WHL is notoriously a tougher league, and Siemens has played well there this year, it's not out of the question to believe he'll be in the Top 4 in 1-2 years. Barrie has already played there this year, and looked better each game he played (for the most part). Elliott also seemed to have really turned a corner, and he needs to focus on his game this offseason, and come back and continue that play

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05-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #839
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Avs re-sign Lerg and Stollery for the AHL. 37 contracts for the Avs signed for next year. I have to imagine Malone, Vincour, L. Walker, Connolly, and maybe Chouinard get deals too, so just a number to always keep an eye on.
We never had Stollery, did we sign him or did the Monsters re-sign him?

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05-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
But he shouldn't cut off part of someone's quote, just to make his argument seem more attractive.
We covered this already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hek View Post
AB's point doesn't change one bit whether the time period is right now or 1-2 years down the road.

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05-02-2013, 01:56 PM
  #841
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Your counter-argument would go over better if you had actually quoted Pierce's entire quote.
My point is valid either way.

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05-02-2013, 02:02 PM
  #842
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We never had Stollery, did we sign him or did the Monsters re-sign him?
Avs finally signed him.

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05-02-2013, 02:07 PM
  #843
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I don't care if his opinion doesn't change.

But he shouldn't cut off part of someone's quote, just to make his argument seem more attractive.
RL, I realize you're a mod and everything, and I do respect what the mods bring in here, and I've always enjoyed your opinion and contributions as well. But honestly in this case, piss off.

I didn't "cut off" his quote to make my argument more attractive, and I don't appreciate your assertion that I did. I cut it off because that was the part of it that I was objecting to, and to make the subsequent discussion more readable. Have you not seen posts/threads in here where people cut/paste dozens and dozens of lines of text, just to make a simple point in rebuttal? That's exactly what I was trying to avoid. No more, no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Pierce's original statement/opinion/belief has weight to it, in my opinion.
I believe that also, but part of it wasn't to my liking, so I pointed out that part. What's the issue that requires such mod intervention, or any intervention? PH is a very good poster, and I enjoy discussions with him. Most times I agree with him, sometimes not. And I'm sure he'd say the same things about me - sometimes I have a good point, sometimes I'm a damn blowhard. Which is completely cool with me.

Avs prospects get routinely blown up out of proportion in here. I simply pointed that out.

Loosen the stick, dude.

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05-02-2013, 02:11 PM
  #844
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Avs finally signed him.
I know we have 50 contract spots but I hate that we wasted one on Stollery, I don't like the guy as a player.

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05-02-2013, 02:11 PM
  #845
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I agree 100%.

The Avs have a surplus of defensemen but where's the quality? Where's the proven track record of playing 20 minutes a night AND producing playoff level results.

Heck, the Avs had a lot of defensemen this year too. Johnson, Hejda, O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, Barrie, Elliott and Zanon all played this year. The problem this year wasn't the number of defensemen available it was the lack of quality defensemen available. O'Byrne, O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson and Zanon are bottom pairing Dmen at best. Hejda is a 2nd pairing Dman. Barrie and Elliott are nowhere close to being top pairing Dmen yet and they may never get to that level. That leaves Johnson who is "probably" a top pairing Dman but his numbers haven't proven that out just yet.

The Avs have a #2 (Johnson), a #4 (Hejda), a bunch of #5's and 6's (O'Brien, Hunwick, Wilson, Zanon) and then three or four unproven prospects (Barrie, Elliott, Siemens and Jones if he is picked). To reach the playoffs and do more than a first round exit the Avs need at least one quality #1/#2 Dman, at least one quality #3/#4 Dman, and they need to get rid of the dead weight (Wilson, Hunwick, Zanon).
Right. Unfortunately, I believe it may not be until 2014-2015 in which we see EJ-Barrie-Jones-Siemens on the ice together. There are simply too many contracts out there right now, even if Jones and Siemens could make a 3 month jump from the WHL to the NHL, of which there's absolutely no guarantee.

The other issue is this: Could the Avs ice EJ-Barrie-Jones-Siemens...and Elliott all together in 2014-2015? That's an awful lot of really young defensemen on the ice at the same time. I think they'd be needing a decent vet or two in that mix. Or course that all depends on who develops how, and when. But it may beg the question - who gets moved?

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05-02-2013, 02:19 PM
  #846
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I know we have 50 contract spots but I hate that we wasted one on Stollery, I don't like the guy as a player.
Adds some depth I guess. He basically takes the spot of Pock. Currently the Avs have 37 players under contract. Then there are 4 RFAs to sign at minimum (Vincour, Palushaj, Malone, L Walker). At least 1 UFA in Bordy, but up to 3 with Kobasew and Hejduk (who I think will both be let go). So I would pin the Avs currently at ~42-43 contract spots. Then you want to leave some flexibility in case of a trade, so leave ~2 spots open. That gives the Avs 3-4 spots still to hand out without shipping anybody out and not including the #1 pick. Not a lot of room.

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05-02-2013, 02:23 PM
  #847
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Avs d-situation will be a challenge for Sherman/Mystery GM to address this summer.

They have to clear a spot or two. Not because kids should be handed spots but because with veterans on one-way contracts there is a very real chance of kids not getting spots they earn through their ability. We saw that this year with Barrie being demoted once Wilson was removed from IR. Next year we might have 3-4 Barries.

It's possible with the new winds blowing there will be a bigger willingness to waive/demote players on bigger one-way contracts but until I see any evidence of it I wouldn't expect it.

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05-02-2013, 02:28 PM
  #848
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Right. Unfortunately, I believe it may not be until 2014-2015 in which we see EJ-Barrie-Jones-Siemens on the ice together. There are simply too many contracts out there right now, even if Jones and Siemens could make a 3 month jump from the WHL to the NHL, of which there's absolutely no guarantee.

The other issue is this: Could the Avs ice EJ-Barrie-Jones-Siemens...and Elliott all together in 2014-2015? That's an awful lot of really young defensemen on the ice at the same time. I think they'd be needing a decent vet or two in that mix. Or course that all depends on who develops how, and when. But it may beg the question - who gets moved?
in terms of the young guys none of them would really need to be moved. Zanon and Hunwick are UFA's in 2014.

you add a vet either this off-season or next for a few seasons to further push the team forward. Hejda,Wilson and O'Brien are UFA's in 2015.
we can afford to bring the young guys along at a slower pace while we let some contracts expire or we can just move a couple of pieces for some value. i would keep Hejda until his contract is over with, he seems to help the young ones along. if you can sign a nice vet then maybe you move Wilson or Hunwick now and allow Siemens to sit until 2014.

i don't really think it will be that big of a issue once everything settles in. a lot of it will likely come down to the HC. will he want vets or will he be willing to and encouraging towards developing young guys?

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05-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #849
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Avs d-situation will be a challenge for Sherman/Mystery GM to address this summer.

They have to clear a spot or two. Not because kids should be handed spots but because with veterans on one-way contracts there is a very real chance of kids not getting spots they earn through their ability. We saw that this year with Barrie being demoted once Wilson was removed from IR. Next year we might have 3-4 Barries.

It's possible with the new winds blowing there will be a bigger willingness to waive/demote players on bigger one-way contracts but until I see any evidence of it I wouldn't expect it.
I agree with you in full. I suspect team management will have enough difficulty explaining to management how/why they spent $8-9M on Jones/Zanon/O'Brien on a budget-concious team, let alone how they'd want to spend money on dumping those contracts and spending more on new ones.

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05-02-2013, 02:31 PM
  #850
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in terms of the young guys none of them would really need to be moved. Zanon and Hunwick are UFA's in 2014.

you add a vet either this off-season or next for a few seasons to further push the team forward. Hejda,Wilson and O'Brien are UFA's in 2015.
we can afford to bring the young guys along at a slower pace while we let some contracts expire or we can just move a couple of pieces for some value. i would keep Hejda until his contract is over with, he seems to help the young ones along. if you can sign a nice vet then maybe you move Wilson or Hunwick now and allow Siemens to sit until 2014.

i don't really think it will be that big of a issue once everything settles in. a lot of it will likely come down to the HC. will he want vets or will he be willing to and encouraging towards developing young guys?
Oh, I agree. I'm just saying that next season - and next season alone - it might not quite be what we'd like to see: there's no room for all of these young defensemen on the NHL roster.

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