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OT: Tragedy at Dawson College ON TOPIC THREAD

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Old
09-16-2006, 01:08 PM
  #276
mcphee
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Precisely. One only has to spend a couple hours surfing through vampire freaks or even more mainstream teen sites like Nexopia to see teens talking freely about killing themselves, having thought of the method, and having the means. In a psych office these 3 ingredients would lead to a high risk suicide diagnosis. Online it would be indistinguishable from the volume of the same



You nailed it. Gill's profile would blend right in with the other very disturbing caricatures presented. Its almost modal behavior for a large subset of contributors.
As shocking as it is to many on this thread these disturbing profiles proliferate. Pictures of guns pointed at heads, guns in mouth, photoshops visualizing the act, are all out there. Grim. Depressing. But far from identifiable from the sheer volume of disturbing profiles created.

Spot the deeply disturbed Waldo when everybody looks like Waldo......

Take it from somebody thats been in the family business for 25 years but one main problem encountered in cases of long unchecked antisocial, sociopathic, behavior is that the behavior begins gradually often when the child is young and that the child eventually prevents the parents from having much access at all to their abode. As the child ages extreme tantrums, screaming, yelling, and often violence toward a parent or threats thereof are lobbied to gradually gain all that unchecked solitude.

The parent that says "I had no idea what Johnny was up to all those years in his room is well aware that Johhny farely forbade them from being in the room and for reason.

Every good parent WANTS to have access to, and know, what Johhny is doing in his room, but some are critically eventually dissuaded by the sheer volume of protest and severe acting out demonstrated by the budding sociopath. This is even more prevalent and traumatic in single parent homes with mothers who are regularly physically assaulted and threatened and without the neighbors knowing anything. The overpowered parent often empowers this victimization through utter embarassment and feeling that the assaults, threats, violence, in every way signals the worst possible failure in their parenting and shame and secrecy is the unconscious result.
Abused spouses suffer a similar paradigm.

Its never an accident in these cases that nobody knew. Its the clear design of the sociopath often established early on.

This profile type only ever exposes anonymously(online) or in some cases in real life to individuals that are entirely similar, and trusted. An inner sanctum of the utmost vigilance exists.
Unfortunately the online community offers much more significant possibility that deeply disturbed like minds attract, find each other, and support each others sociopathy, and actions.
I understand your points. The one question I keep asking when I watch the news at night, is has anyone, 'followed the money'?

From high school to last Wednesday is roughly 7 years. How did he pay for the car,guns, etc. ? Where did he work ? Did he work ? With the reach the media has now, I'm very surprised that so little has been said about this time frame. To go from the disassociative feelings to action had to build during that time. He didn't go from a bad high school experience to Dawson.

Did the parents fund his lifestyle unknowingly ?

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09-16-2006, 01:27 PM
  #277
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I understand your points. The one question I keep asking when I watch the news at night, is has anyone, 'followed the money'?

From high school to last Wednesday is roughly 7 years. How did he pay for the car,guns, etc. ? Where did he work ? Did he work ? With the reach the media has now, I'm very surprised that so little has been said about this time frame. To go from the disassociative feelings to action had to build during that time. He didn't go from a bad high school experience to Dawson.

Did the parents fund his lifestyle unknowingly ?
I heard on the news he had a couple of jobs.

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09-16-2006, 04:57 PM
  #278
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I understand your points. The one question I keep asking when I watch the news at night, is has anyone, 'followed the money'?

From high school to last Wednesday is roughly 7 years. How did he pay for the car,guns, etc. ? Where did he work ? Did he work ? With the reach the media has now, I'm very surprised that so little has been said about this time frame. To go from the disassociative feelings to action had to build during that time. He didn't go from a bad high school experience to Dawson.

Did the parents fund his lifestyle unknowingly ?
Considering he lived at home at 25 years old, was unemployed over the last 4-8 months (easy to judge from his journals) at least, claimed to drink a fair bit of Jack Daniels, had three guns that his parents not only knew about but had to sign documents to help him get his hands on them ... I would say his parents did fund his lifestyle. And saying they funded his lifestyle unknowingly would be generous.

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09-16-2006, 05:21 PM
  #279
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The mystery in all of this to me, as I'm sure it is to many of you, is why Dawson?

If an individual's objective is to kill as many people as possible, going to de Maisonneuve and Guy, the center of downtown and heart of Concordia, is far busier. Entering Concordia and dropping into a lecture hall would instantly result in far, far more deaths as there are more students in a university lecture hall than there are in any of Dawson's atriums. McGill College would also have far more people around.

So Dawson was not selected due to any objectives relating to increasing kill-count, for lack of a better term.

The next theory that comes to mind is a pre-existing relationship with the College. But there was no pre-existing relationship with the College. He never lived nearby and never associated with the place, it seemed.

Now, having read this deranged individual's journal, one reoccuring comment was that 'to all the girls [on this site], i'm sorry you're having problems with other kids in real life. if i was there, i'd protect you', or something to that effect.

Given the fact that goths tend to be angst-ridden teens, the 18-19 year old age-range of a college is the right age for the angst-ridden teen population. McGill, Concordia, and other universities are not. It's not uncommon to see goths in CEGEP, but it is in university.


I'm wondering if, given Gill's journal entries claiming he'd 'help' girls of vampirefreaks.com if he was there, if he didn't know a girl from that site who attended Dawson. It would be the right age range for a goth, and the site was english (meaning the likelyhood of an english goth in Montreal going to Dawson is quite high).


The fact that he shot Anastasia Desousa 12 times indicates she was targetted.

The fact that of the 12 victims in critical condition/dead, 7 were female and 5 were male, and of those males, some of them were shot shielding a girl ... indicates to me that girls were targetted more than males.

This thinking is re-enforced by the fact that in Gill's journal he placed females on a pedestal to be treated respectfully and borderline worshipped, whereas he continually degraded males and referred to them often as animals and monkeys.


Considering Gill wanted to help 'goth girls' if he was able to, targetted girls more than males despite placing girls on a pedestal in his journal while degrading males, targetted a College that wouldn't lead to him leaving as large a trail of blood as he could have otherwise, it seems very clear that he had a specific motive.

Just putting up a theory. Trying to make some sense of all of this.

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09-16-2006, 05:42 PM
  #280
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Just came across this picture which would re-enforce this theory of mine:


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09-16-2006, 06:52 PM
  #281
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Mike, I was going to post that maybe you're applying too much logic to the illogical, but you probably have some truths in there.

I would think quite a few of us weren't part of the social group in high school they wanted to, didn't find their niche, but not everyone has the capacity to convert this into what this guy did.

The post above makes sense in that part of the behaviour is the organization. Hiding the activity from those around him, the step by step acquisitions. I don't know, I guess you can't eradicate a diseased mind. My thing is that thru school, start to finish, if someone is falling thru the cracks, there are opportunities to notice. It won't prevent this kind of thing, maybe it'll lessen them though.

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09-16-2006, 07:02 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritone
Sounds like you know quite extensively about these situations, is there or could there have been a way to identify or prevent? From the sound of what you wrote it seems they have a "secretive" side that only manifests itself among like-minded friends "cults,online anonymous etc." Is there anything that could have been done in Gill's case that may have stopped him?
Well, family SHOULD know of the nature or presence of this developing. Theres many signs directed TO the family. In general an intervention involving family and friends would be required and optimally at an earlier age. Many sociopaths and Narcissists have had their tendencies carefully channelled into certain avenues and have gone on to be quite successful as enron executives, politicians..etc. But the sociopath constricts or constrains the extent of their sociopathy purely on the basis of external force applied that they would feel is strong and implacable. Alternately any sign of weakness is detected and challenged. However note the possible specific challenges of this case pointed out below which would've made intervention difficult.


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I understand your points. The one question I keep asking when I watch the news at night, is has anyone, 'followed the money'?

From high school to last Wednesday is roughly 7 years. How did he pay for the car,guns, etc. ? Where did he work ? Did he work ? With the reach the media has now, I'm very surprised that so little has been said about this time frame. To go from the disassociative feelings to action had to build during that time. He didn't go from a bad high school experience to Dawson.

Did the parents fund his lifestyle unknowingly ?
Hypothetically in the case of a first generation family given to traditional and patriarchal roots a first born male child in an immigrant family would represent the future hope and survival of the family. In cases of lack of affluence for all, family resources in the sometimes extended families are diverted away from grandparents, sisters, mother, younger brothers, and chanelled to the eldest male progeny in the hopes of increasing the competitive chances of the future patriarch, and in turn, the family. In this way the eldest male child has a unique position as being regarded higher even than the father. The mother, even a PHD holder(again hypothetically) would have little comparative standing or say.

Add to this that the eldest male child would be the arbiter of new language, culture, customs, knowledge, puts him in an even more elevated position as paragon of virtue no matter how erratic. East Indian immigrant families can be quite dependent on the son as *interpreter* as retension of old world cultures, languages, traditions, association, is pronounced. The son can further use this to advantage by manipulating information re: the new society for his own advantage.

Related to this is that the traditions, mores, can be quite insular and the family is much less likely to make use of any societal resources like external counseling, womens battered shelters, social services. This makes any external detection of problems very difficult.

The eldest son would almost be beyond reproach.

In essence this child would get whatever resources the family could provide for whatever reason they would describe for needing it.

In the old world reprimand for abberant behavior would come from community or extended family but is far less available here given nuclear family configuration and lack of community.

Typically the individuals most able to redress behavior in this culture AFAIK would be any reasonably successful or respected uncles on the paternal side.

Again, please be aware that my synopsis assumes a first generation family with high traditional and patriarchal bent. Not necessarily the case, but possible.


Last edited by Replacement: 09-16-2006 at 07:11 PM.
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09-16-2006, 07:13 PM
  #283
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I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but yeah, I can see that. While the timeline seems dubious, parents want so desperately to believe that something good is going to happen, that not knowing can be the preferred path.

When these things happen, people want easy answers that they can put in their own terms, when that just isn't going to happen.

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09-17-2006, 01:28 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
The mystery in all of this to me, as I'm sure it is to many of you, is why Dawson?

If an individual's objective is to kill as many people as possible, going to de Maisonneuve and Guy, the center of downtown and heart of Concordia, is far busier. Entering Concordia and dropping into a lecture hall would instantly result in far, far more deaths as there are more students in a university lecture hall than there are in any of Dawson's atriums. McGill College would also have far more people around.

So Dawson was not selected due to any objectives relating to increasing kill-count, for lack of a better term.

The next theory that comes to mind is a pre-existing relationship with the College. But there was no pre-existing relationship with the College. He never lived nearby and never associated with the place, it seemed.

Now, having read this deranged individual's journal, one reoccuring comment was that 'to all the girls [on this site], i'm sorry you're having problems with other kids in real life. if i was there, i'd protect you', or something to that effect.

Given the fact that goths tend to be angst-ridden teens, the 18-19 year old age-range of a college is the right age for the angst-ridden teen population. McGill, Concordia, and other universities are not. It's not uncommon to see goths in CEGEP, but it is in university.


I'm wondering if, given Gill's journal entries claiming he'd 'help' girls of vampirefreaks.com if he was there, if he didn't know a girl from that site who attended Dawson. It would be the right age range for a goth, and the site was english (meaning the likelyhood of an english goth in Montreal going to Dawson is quite high).


The fact that he shot Anastasia Desousa 12 times indicates she was targetted.

The fact that of the 12 victims in critical condition/dead, 7 were female and 5 were male, and of those males, some of them were shot shielding a girl ... indicates to me that girls were targetted more than males.

This thinking is re-enforced by the fact that in Gill's journal he placed females on a pedestal to be treated respectfully and borderline worshipped, whereas he continually degraded males and referred to them often as animals and monkeys.


Considering Gill wanted to help 'goth girls' if he was able to, targetted girls more than males despite placing girls on a pedestal in his journal while degrading males, targetted a College that wouldn't lead to him leaving as large a trail of blood as he could have otherwise, it seems very clear that he had a specific motive.

Just putting up a theory. Trying to make some sense of all of this.
not sure about this...

When you go through his journal you understand that he's a reject who developped a hate for happy people... most of his most hatefull posts are to blame preps, jocks, anyone that was successful in highschool/college. The guy had troubled relations with women...the only relationship with girls he achieved was throung an internet board, had only one GF in his life.. there's a very revelating post where he sais something like " 85% of women are biiitches, and 85% of men are aswholes" - " man treat women like ****, and 85% of them like it" .. doesn't understand why girls are attracted to "morons" and not to him...


I really doubt he had any specefic motives.. a feeling of being totally different from other human beings (heavy narcissisme) + great anger + depression + whatever..

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09-17-2006, 04:05 AM
  #285
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does Kimveer leave behind any brothers/sisters?

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09-17-2006, 09:23 AM
  #286
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I really doubt he had any specefic motives.. a feeling of being totally different from other human beings (heavy narcissisme) + great anger + depression + whatever..
You may be right, but I don't buy that he was just completely out of it. Why would he specifically target Dawson, if he was just out to kill random happy people? The fact that he 'scoped out' Dawson a couple of weeks prior (as was seen by security cameras on August 28th, I believe), and had planned this for that long leads me to believe he had some motive.

The fact that he chose to shoot one girl specifically 12 times, and had shot another girl twice before she was buried under her mother to shield her, leads me to believe girls were targetted specifically.

I do believe he had some lucid thoughts. I don't believe he was insane. Reading his journal, the only 'wish' he seemed to have that he felt he'd have control over is 'defending goth girls on VampireFreaks'. That picture I posted above ... I'm curious if we could find a date on when it was taken.

There had to be a motive, however trivial the motive was, for choosing Dawson and choosing to shoot specific girls multiple times. Even if he targetted girls because they triggered memories of rejection, the motive for choosing Dawson is still unknown.



Hackett: I believe he has twin brothers who are 22-years old.

Here's a quote after a quick google search:

Quote:
Kimveer Gill had two twin brothers, and the boys reportedly got in trouble with a neighbour after chasing the man's daughter down the street. The first time it happened the man talked to the killer's father - the second time he spoke to the boys themselves.

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09-17-2006, 11:10 AM
  #287
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does Kimveer leave behind any brothers/sisters?
Two brothers. Just curious, why do you ask?
The media has made quite a few "faux-pas" of integrity by showing the house (including the ADDRESS) which in turn has left Gill's family quite vulnerable to anyone who feels that retribution could be had through Gill's family. I am actually slightly fearful that someone might go commando on them and I think this is tragic.
Anyone who has siblings can certainly understand that the responsability lies within Kimveer and NOT the family surrounding him. If my older brother went nuts and killed people I don't think I'd feel any responsability to pay for his actions. Hopefully nobody takes it upon themselves to seek this vengeance through Kimveer's family members.

Side note: Definition of irresponsable journalism : Journal de Montreal had an article in yesterday's paper about how disgusting and irresponsable the Ontario media has been to the parents by invading their privacy and publishing information that goes beyond the realm of responsable journalism.....in the very same article the Journal thought it was acceptable to have a huge picture of Kimveer's parents' house with the ADDRESS SHOWING!....hypocrite much?

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09-17-2006, 11:42 AM
  #288
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Tritone, I guess it's a side issue but the way the details came out on Wednesday and the way they got interpreted by us, [us just as an example] , is an interesting topic in itself. Read our post by post account of how news was released and our reactions. Some outlets were releasing unsubstantiated numbers, some qualified their comments as speculation, some didn't. it was a difficult situation in that the police had much to do before informing the public, plus some news outlets were reporting from a national desk in Toronto before going to the locals. [the anglo side obviuosly]

Strangely, at one point I went downstairs from my office into the kitchen where I had left a radio on the Team. They were extremely professional in getting their people [non news people] into position to report. They were also very careful to differentiate rumour from substantiated fact. I was impressed, in that a sports station would've gotten a pass if they had not done a good job.

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09-17-2006, 12:02 PM
  #289
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I am actually slightly fearful that someone might go commando on them and I think this is tragic.
Anyone who has siblings can certainly understand that the responsability lies within Kimveer and NOT the family surrounding him. If my older brother went nuts and killed people I don't think I'd feel any responsability to pay for his actions. Hopefully nobody takes it upon themselves to seek this vengeance through Kimveer's family members.

I disagree on both accounts.

For one, I highly doubt anyone will seek retribution through the family. Homolka's living whereabouts have been known for awhile, and she has not been harmed, for example.

Secondly, while full responsibility does lie on Kimveer Gill, I do not feel his family is blameless. They supported an individual who was clearly going down the wrong path for many, many years. Further, they aided him in acquiring guns. What does an unemployed individual who has no self-motivation or interest in taking part in society need with guns? It's incredible that the family did not question this.

Kimveer Gill's family let him down by not taking an active role in his life. And by extension, they let society down.

That does not mean they should receive any retribution, but I take exception with the unfortunately numerous people I've heard say they feel bad for Gill's mother.

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09-17-2006, 12:16 PM
  #290
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Secondly, while full responsibility does lie on Kimveer Gill, I do not feel his family is blameless. They supported an individual who was clearly going down the wrong path for many, many years. Further, they aided him in acquiring guns. What does an unemployed individual who has no self-motivation or interest in taking part in society need with guns? It's incredible that the family did not question this.
I think you're going too far. From the sounds of it, nobody around him could have predicted what happened. Also, the parents may have seen the gun club as an interest of Gill, where he could meet people and socialize. They were not aware of his internet rantings, pics with guns, etc. For the rifles, the gun club owner has to say the gunman can be trusted, and he did give the green light. Don't you think his parents are hurting enough right now? To know that their child became nothing but a monster?

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09-17-2006, 12:23 PM
  #291
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I disagree on both accounts.

For one, I highly doubt anyone will seek retribution through the family. Homolka's living whereabouts have been known for awhile, and she has not been harmed, for example.

Secondly, while full responsibility does lie on Kimveer Gill, I do not feel his family is blameless. They supported an individual who was clearly going down the wrong path for many, many years. Further, they aided him in acquiring guns. What does an unemployed individual who has no self-motivation or interest in taking part in society need with guns? It's incredible that the family did not question this.

Kimveer Gill's family let him down by not taking an active role in his life. And by extension, they let society down.

That does not mean they should receive any retribution, but I take exception with the unfortunately numerous people I've heard say they feel bad for Gill's mother.

Just on the point about the guns; he told his parents it was for sport and in fact was a member of a gun club, and his parents required that they be fully legal and registered before bringing them into the house. I get the feeling he got them before he became unemployed... I certainly never read anywhere that they paid for them.

I think you're making too many assumptions without knowing the full story here (and it will probably take weeks or months to know the full story), but I also get the feeling that his parents were in his life... For example, they apparently helped him get treatment from a CLSC for depression at one point. Of course, they probably gave him the benefit of the doubt, like practically every parent would do, about any strange behaviour.

Like his father said, if they had held any idea at all that their son would have had a chance of doing something like this, they would have done something about it. The fact they watched the coverage of the tragedy on the news, turned it off, then got notified in the evening by the police and were completely *shocked* demonstrates that they didn't even have an inkling about what he was going to do.

Why do you get upset at people who feel bad for his parents? You're almost implying that they paid for his guns and booze while he walked around muttering "I'm going to kill everyone" and that they ignored it; like I said, we have no idea what the sequence of events were.

Perhaps he had savings and spent that during his unemployment on booze (it's not like he would have had much in the way of expenses). Like I said, he probably bought the weapons before he became unemployed. His story (if it were even a story at the time) that he was interested in guns for the sport of it sounds reasonable for someone that even tried the Canadian Forces at one point in his life (1999).

I'm not saying they're blameless, but like I said, it's too early to tell one way or the other, and we sure don't know the whole story yet. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, though... I'm pretty sure there was probably nothing they could do. So I guess I am saying that I would assume they're blameless...

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09-17-2006, 12:27 PM
  #292
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I disagree on both accounts.

For one, I highly doubt anyone will seek retribution through the family. Homolka's living whereabouts have been known for awhile, and she has not been harmed, for example.

Secondly, while full responsibility does lie on Kimveer Gill, I do not feel his family is blameless. They supported an individual who was clearly going down the wrong path for many, many years. Further, they aided him in acquiring guns. What does an unemployed individual who has no self-motivation or interest in taking part in society need with guns? It's incredible that the family did not question this.

Kimveer Gill's family let him down by not taking an active role in his life. And by extension, they let society down.

That does not mean they should receive any retribution, but I take exception with the unfortunately numerous people I've heard say they feel bad for Gill's mother.
I think retribution could indeed be made through harassment and insults, either to the parents or the brothers, though I doubt it would go beyond that.

I feel it's a bit harsh to say the parents supported him in what he was doing (before the incident). We just don't know or don't have enough facts to determine whether they were complacent, unaware or approving of Gill's actions and thinking.

They could have been looking the other way or they could have been loving parents not knowing what to do or how severe the situation was. Who's gonna make that call? Not me. Not with so little facts.

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09-17-2006, 12:33 PM
  #293
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I think you're going too far. From the sounds of it, nobody around him could have predicted what happened. Also, the parents may have seen the gun club as an interest of Gill, where he could meet people and socialize. They were not aware of his internet rantings, pics with guns, etc. For the rifles, the gun club owner has to say the gunman can be trusted, and he did give the green light. Don't you think his parents are hurting enough right now? To know that their child became nothing but a monster?
I'm not talking about whether Gill's parents should have been able to anticipate the fact that their son was going to go on a rampage. I don't think they could have anticipated that. I do think they had many opportunities to see their son sliding down a slippery slope of depression and anger.

I don't think a gun club is a perfectly normal place for a depressed, and angry 25-year old to socialize. In any logical family, a 25-year old who's unemployed, has no self-motivation, and is increasingly depressed and angry is not permitted to own guns. They're not encouraged to join a gun club.

Really, this is common sense.

If you've got a child who, for whatever reason, you allow to live in your home despite the fact that they're not doing anything constructive, would you allow them to purchase three guns? So that they can potentially make friends at a gun club?

This apologizing for the parents is just mind-boggling to me.

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09-17-2006, 12:35 PM
  #294
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I'm not talking about whether Gill's parents should have been able to anticipate the fact that their son was going to go on a rampage. I don't think they could have anticipated that. I do think they had many opportunities to see their son sliding down a slippery slope of depression and anger.

I don't think a gun club is a perfectly normal place for a depressed, and angry 25-year old to socialize. In any logical family, a 25-year old who's unemployed, has no self-motivation, and is increasingly depressed and angry is not permitted to own guns. They're not encouraged to join a gun club.

Really, this is common sense.

If you've got a child who, for whatever reason, you allow to live in your home despite the fact that they're not doing anything constructive, would you allow them to purchase three guns? So that they can potentially make friends at a gun club?

This apologizing for the parents is just mind-boggling to me.
Again, how do you know for a fact he bought the guns and joined the gun club during the last few months?

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09-17-2006, 12:40 PM
  #295
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Why do you get upset at people who feel bad for his parents? You're almost implying that they paid for his guns and booze while he walked around muttering "I'm going to kill everyone" and that they ignored it; like I said, we have no idea what the sequence of events were.
Because his parents supported his lifestyle.

Being 25-years old and living with your parents is not entirely normal, to start with. But being 25-years old, unemployed, and showing no interest in taking part in society is so incredibly abnormal that it screams a red flag.

Being 25-years old, unemployed, with no interest in taking part in society, owning three guns, and becoming increasingly depressed and angry throws up even more warning signs that something's not right.

These are not assumptions here... these are basic facts of the story. I'm not making the assumption that the parents could sense that he could potentially be violent. In fact, I would wager Kimveer Gill showed no signs of being violent. I would wager there were no real signs that he'd go on a rampage. At least, nothing entirely obvious.

But there were serious fundamental problems with his lifestyle and mentality that his parents neglected by allowing him to continue isolating himself.

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09-17-2006, 12:42 PM
  #296
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Again, how do you know for a fact he bought the guns and joined the gun club during the last few months?
What relevance does this have?

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09-17-2006, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Munchausen View Post
I feel it's a bit harsh to say the parents supported him in what he was doing (before the incident). We just don't know or don't have enough facts to determine whether they were complacent, unaware or approving of Gill's actions and thinking.
By allowing Gill to live in their home they supported him.


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They could have been looking the other way or they could have been loving parents not knowing what to do or how severe the situation was.
I don't believe ignorance is an excuse.

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09-17-2006, 12:55 PM
  #298
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What relevance does this have?
Because the basis of your argument is that a 25 year old unemployed depressed person should raise flags when he joins a gun club and buys 3 guns.

My point is that if he was a 23 year old with a job at that time, it doesn't sound so cut and dried as you're making it out to be.

You're making a load of assumptions based on some of the facts that have come out. You do not have all the facts.

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09-17-2006, 01:01 PM
  #299
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Because the basis of your argument is that a 25 year old unemployed depressed person should raise flags when he joins a gun club and buys 3 guns.
No. The basis of my argument is that a 25-year old, living at home with his parents, unemployed, disinterested in taking part in society, owning three guns, and becoming increasingly angry and depressed throws up red flags.

It doesn't matter if Kimveer Gill bought his guns at 21 or at 25. These are irrelevant details.

A 25-year old should either be living on their own, or have a very good reason for living with their parents still.

He had been an adult for many years to this point. If the parents had no control over him, then they should have booted him out. At least that would have forced him to deal with society, and not supported his isolation.

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You're making a load of assumptions based on some of the facts that have come out. You do not have all the facts.
You keep claiming this, but you have yet to support this claim. What assumptions am I making?

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09-17-2006, 01:09 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
No. The basis of my argument is that a 25-year old, living at home with his parents, unemployed, disinterested in taking part in society, owning three guns, and becoming increasingly angry and depressed throws up red flags.

It doesn't matter if Kimveer Gill bought his guns at 21 or at 25. These are irrelevant details.

A 25-year old should either be living on their own, or have a very good reason for living with their parents still.

He had been an adult for many years to this point. If the parents had no control over him, then they should have booted him out. At least that would have forced him to deal with society, and not supported his isolation.
In many immigrant families, a 25-year-old stays at home until they get married. They could have chalked up his depression to his job loss. They obviously knew about the depression since they took him to a CLSC for help with it. They could have been trying to give him time to regroup. He could have masked most of the depression from them. They could have had a lot to deal with because apparently the mother was sick (which apparently was part of the cause of his depression). They could have been trying to help him get out of his depression using positive re-enforcement instead of tough love. They could have been trying their best.

If they had kicked him out, seeing what he wrote on his webpage, I doubt it would have stopped him from doing what he did. In fact, I could see you blaming them for triggering it.


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You keep claiming this, but you have yet to support this claim. What assumptions am I making?
See all my "could have"s up above? That's my point. You don't know how he acted around them. You don't know what they were aware of, and if he demonstrated anything horribly out of the ordinary around the parents. I don't know if you have any experience with depression - I do, and I know how easy it is to mask most/all of it if you really want to. The fact his parents tried to help him shows that they knew more than a lot of parents would have.

The support to the claim is that you seem to have passed judgement on them already; feel free to do so if you like. I'm not so sure.

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