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Other Chicago & General Sports Thread XVIII - TWTW Edition

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05-02-2013, 09:09 AM
  #326
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I'll give you the Pistons but the Mavs were pretty stacked

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05-02-2013, 09:19 AM
  #327
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I'll give you the Pistons but the Mavs were pretty stacked
But had 1 star, the Bulls are a similar team. 1 supertstar and the rest some good role players.

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05-02-2013, 09:21 AM
  #328
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The guys around those stars were so much better though. Rasheed Wallace, who is that guy on the Bulls?

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05-02-2013, 09:23 AM
  #329
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The guys around those stars were so much better though. Rasheed Wallace, who is that guy on the Bulls?
The Pistons didn't have a star, they where just a good team.

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05-02-2013, 09:26 AM
  #330
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The concern with the Bulls is that Rose starts to break down when the better depth finally does arrive. You'd like to see them do something about it sooner rather than later but they don't have much to give up to get it. Howard is a joke but if he hits UFA, you have to consider it.

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05-02-2013, 09:27 AM
  #331
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People always point to the Pistons. That was the exception. Plus that LA team absolutely melted down. That was probably the worst season in the NBA over the past 30 years. The early-mid 2000's were really a low point in the NBA.

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05-02-2013, 09:58 AM
  #332
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It doesn't happen often but does happen.
Look at the guy holding the trophy.

OMG, a stacked team with Dirk won a title!! I am so shocked!!

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05-02-2013, 10:06 AM
  #333
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The guys around those stars were so much better though. Rasheed Wallace, who is that guy on the Bulls?
Really? I disagree.

Dallas had the most effective bench player of either team (Terry), but their starting lineup was clearly inferior.

Rose is a much better player than Kidd, Butler is better than Stevenson, Deng is a good deal better than Marion (who I actually really like), Nowitzki's got a big edge on Boozer, and Noah is a little better than or about as good as Chandler.
Mavs main bench producers were Terry and Barea. Bulls' main guys today (assuming health, obviously) are Hinrich, Gibson, Belinelli, and Robinson. Give the Mavs the edge for having the best player, but it's not that large.

I don't see much of a difference between the two teams other than the fact that their two superstars play different positions.

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05-02-2013, 10:07 AM
  #334
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Look at the guy holding the trophy.

OMG, a stacked team with Dirk won a title!! I am so shocked!!
That's the point. A team built well around 1 superstar can win it.

I'd argue that the current Bulls supporting cast is clearly better than Nowitzki's. I'd take Rose, Deng, Boozer, and Noah over Nowitzki, Marion, Kidd, and Chandler any day of the week. Doesn't require much deliberation at all.

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05-02-2013, 10:20 AM
  #335
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Really? I disagree.

Dallas had the most effective bench player of either team (Terry), but their starting lineup was clearly inferior.

Rose is a much better player than Kidd, Butler is better than Stevenson, Deng is a good deal better than Marion (who I actually really like), Nowitzki's got a big edge on Boozer, and Noah is a little better than or about as good as Chandler.
Mavs main bench producers were Terry and Barea. Bulls' main guys today (assuming health, obviously) are Hinrich, Gibson, Belinelli, and Robinson. Give the Mavs the edge for having the best player, but it's not that large.

I don't see much of a difference between the two teams other than the fact that their two superstars play different positions.
You nailed the difference. Nowitzki is 6'11 and Derrick Rose is 6'2. Jason Terry played the 3rd most minutes per game on that Mavs team. I'm not sure how you can say he is a bench player. Their starting 5 was Kidd-Terry-Marion-Nowitzki-Chandler.

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05-02-2013, 10:22 AM
  #336
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That's the point. A team built well around 1 superstar can win it.
Except it's way harder when your star is a PG. That'd be the 1st position that I'd want a complimentary player in.

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05-02-2013, 10:23 AM
  #337
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You nailed the difference. Nowitzki is 6'11 and Derrick Rose is 6'2. Jason Terry played the 3rd most minutes per game on that Mavs team. I'm not sure how you can say he is a bench player. Their starting 5 was Kidd-Terry-Marion-Nowitzki-Chandler.
He played the same role as J.R. Smith - didn't start games, but finished them and played a lot of minutes. The ultimate point was that the Mavs' supporting cast for Nowitzki was either inferior or about equal to what the Bulls would offer Rose this year and next.

I'm not sure why you make the distinction in height as if having (one of) the best big men and shooters in the league is somehow more advantageous than having the best point guard.

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05-02-2013, 10:25 AM
  #338
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Except it's way harder when your star is a PG. That'd be the 1st position that I'd want a complimentary player in.
Why? If your star is the best point guard in the league and you can choose between him and one of the best power forwards, what makes the choice so easy in the latter direction?

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05-02-2013, 10:49 AM
  #339
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Why? If your star is the best point guard in the league and you can choose between him and one of the best power forwards, what makes the choice so easy in the latter direction?
How many teams have won championships with their biggest start as a point guard?

Here's a list of the most recent championship PGs:

Chalmers
Kidd - Once was a 'star', was able to win with Dirk in front of him
Fisher
Rondo - a top star today, but not his team's #1 star at the time
Parker - could you build a team around him? No, he's a #2 star
Payton - role player at that point behind Wade & Shaq
Billups
Avery Johnson

So, pretty much all role players, with a few guys who are stars but not ones who could lead a team just role players beneath them. You simply don't need a star PG as much as you need stars elsewhere.

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05-02-2013, 10:49 AM
  #340
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He played the same role as J.R. Smith - didn't start games, but finished them and played a lot of minutes. The ultimate point was that the Mavs' supporting cast for Nowitzki was either inferior or about equal to what the Bulls would offer Rose this year and next.

I'm not sure why you make the distinction in height as if having (one of) the best big men and shooters in the league is somehow more advantageous than having the best point guard.
It absolutely is more advantageous. Please list the teams that won when their best player was shorter than 6'5. Isiah Thomas in 1990 may be the only example in the last 40 years.

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05-02-2013, 10:52 AM
  #341
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Yep, all about height. Those teams had it, the Bulls don't. The taller the Bulls players get, the worse they are.

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05-02-2013, 11:00 AM
  #342
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It absolutely is more advantageous. Please list the teams that won when their best player was shorter than 6'5. Isiah Thomas in 1990 may be the only example in the last 40 years.
Yes, the best players in the league have tended to be tall. Perhaps that's because the league's average height is 6'7".
(Also liked the cutoff being put at 6'5". Quite convenient given Bryant is listed as 6'6").

Guards have had a renaissance in recent years. There was a huge dry spell for them until somewhat recently.

IU - no, you don't need a star point guard, but that doesn't mean you can't win with one. There has not been a point guard as good as Rose was (pre-injury) in a very long time.

coldsteel, the Bulls' best players outside of Rose are all forwards. Boozer, Deng, and Noah. Not sure why you would say that.

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05-02-2013, 11:02 AM
  #343
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IU - no, you don't need a star point guard, but that doesn't mean you can't win with one. There has not been a point guard as good as Rose was (pre-injury) in a very long time.
Seems to me like you can't, since nobody ever does.

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05-02-2013, 11:03 AM
  #344
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Yes, the best players in the league have tended to be tall. Perhaps that's because the league's average height is 6'7".
(Also liked the cutoff being put at 6'5". Quite convenient given Bryant is listed as 6'6").
So was Jordan...

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05-02-2013, 11:04 AM
  #345
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Seems to me like you can't, since nobody ever does.
It was the league's worst position for a number of years. The best point guards were usually not in the discussion at all for best players in the league. So yeah, obviously there's not much precedent.

Was there a ton of precedent for big men whose games are purely shooting-based to win championships before Nowitzki did? No, and the talk around the NBA regarding Dallas was always that Nowitzki needed another star, or was "soft," or was too weak defensively...

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05-02-2013, 11:05 AM
  #346
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So was Jordan...
Right. Under the league average. But of course it's impossible to win with guys who aren't really tall.

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05-02-2013, 11:07 AM
  #347
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coldsteel, the Bulls' best players outside of Rose are all forwards. Boozer, Deng, and Noah. Not sure why you would say that.
The guys with size are decent. They need that monster tall guy like Dirk or Sheed though. Doesn't have to be a prototype low post player but they need someone a big notch above the likes of Boozer and Noah.

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05-02-2013, 11:07 AM
  #348
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Right. Under the league average. But of course it's impossible to win with guys who aren't really tall.


Good shooting guards usually aren't giants.

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05-02-2013, 11:08 AM
  #349
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Yes, the best players in the league have tended to be tall. Perhaps that's because the league's average height is 6'7".
(Also liked the cutoff being put at 6'5". Quite convenient given Bryant is listed as 6'6").

Guards have had a renaissance in recent years. There was a huge dry spell for them until somewhat recently.

IU - no, you don't need a star point guard, but that doesn't mean you can't win with one. There has not been a point guard as good as Rose was (pre-injury) in a very long time.

coldsteel, the Bulls' best players outside of Rose are all forwards. Boozer, Deng, and Noah. Not sure why you would say that.
Its because small players can't get their shot off. Point guards don't lead teams to titles, its just how it is. There have been all kinds of great point guards/lead guards over the years (Payton, Iverson, Stockton, Hardaway, Kidd, Deron Williams, Nash, CP3, Rose, etc.) None of those players have lead their team to a title and only 2 made the Finals and Payton may not have been the best player on that Sonics team.

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05-02-2013, 11:09 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The guys with size are decent. They need that monster tall guy like Dirk or Sheed though. Doesn't have to be a prototype low post player but they need someone a big notch above the likes of Boozer and Noah.
They're not going to get a Nowitzki-level talent without giving up every good player on the roster not named Rose.

Wallace averaged 13 points per game in Detroit's two long playoff runs.

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