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2013 Draft: Stop winnin for MacKinnon, or Do Meth for Seth?

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05-02-2013, 03:05 PM
  #726
JimboA
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Not a Canes fan but I don't want to see Lindholm with the Flames/Oilers/Sabres, so the Canes is the only option for me, haha I'd like to see him there, but I don't know about you. It seems like you guys want to go with Monahan

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05-02-2013, 03:10 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by JimboA View Post
Not a Canes fan but I don't want to see Lindholm with the Flames/Oilers/Sabres, so the Canes is the only option for me, haha I'd like to see him there, but I don't know about you. It seems like you guys want to go with Monahan
It's hard to say who we will go with, but Monahan is who most of us expect the Canes to go with based on prior drafting trends. Usually if all things are about equal he'll go with the North American forward.

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05-02-2013, 03:15 PM
  #728
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Any chance JStaal is getting moved to a second line wing spot?

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05-02-2013, 03:23 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Yeah, paying anyone on the 3rd line more than a couple million doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.
A goal on the 3rd line is worth just as much as a goal on the 2nd line. If he's playing 18+ minutes a game, and scores 25-30 goals, why would him doing it on the 3rd line rather than the 2nd be an issue?

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05-02-2013, 03:24 PM
  #730
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Yeah, paying anyone on the 3rd line more than a couple million doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.
Placing players in the lineup based on their salary does not either, IMO.

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05-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #731
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A goal on the 3rd line is worth just as much as a goal on the 2nd line. If he's playing 18+ minutes a game, and scores 25-30 goals, why would him doing it on the 3rd line rather than the 2nd be an issue?
Indeed and that argument is typically made with the premise that a 3rd line is your default checking line. If Skinner is your 3C, the strategy is clearly about having balanced lines with scorers spread throughout.

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05-02-2013, 03:37 PM
  #732
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uh, you're 3rd line C is going to get less minutes and get worse wingers... So yes, it does matter... There is no flipping way JStaal is the 3rd line center next year.. Less than none

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05-02-2013, 03:48 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Sasha Cares View Post
I don't think Skinner can do that... He had limitations with size and history of concussions
Yzerman (who is my all time favorite player) was only 5'10 and maybe 185 soaking wet. How exactly does Skinner's size limit him from becoming a better defensive player has he matures similar to how Yzerman did? I'm not saying he'll ever be as good either offensively or defensively as Yzerman, but his size won't be the reason why.

Also, I think it's safe to say that Yzerman has had a concussion or two in his day, even if they weren't diagnosed as such back then (e.g..players just say they got their bell rung). In fact, he even admits to it.

http://kuklaskorner.com/hockey/comme..._steve_yzerman

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05-02-2013, 03:49 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Sasha Cares View Post
uh, you're 3rd line C is going to get less minutes and get worse wingers... So yes, it does matter... There is no flipping way JStaal is the 3rd line center next year.. Less than none
What if they decide to continue the Skinner experiment and keep him at C? We could have a balanced lineup with three lines that are an actual scoring threat. Which I'm perfectly fine with, even if it means that someone on the 3rd line makes more money than a 2nd liner. If that's what it takes to achieve scoring depth, I'm all for it.

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05-02-2013, 03:54 PM
  #735
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IMO, the whole argument about his salary and being on the 3rd line is irrelevant. The Canes are going to spend a certain amount on forwards and then it's up to Muller to assemble them in the manner that it is optimal to the team. If that means Skinner is on the 3rd line for a season or two (out of his 6 year deal), then fine. It just means that they are going to need to get more contribution from a cheaper player (Rask, Dalpe, Dwyer, 1st round pick, Welsh, etc...) like they have with Tlusty.

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05-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
IMO, the whole argument about his salary and being on the 3rd line is irrelevant. The Canes are going to spend a certain amount on forwards and then it's up to Muller to assemble them in the manner that it is optimal to the team. If that means Skinner is on the 3rd line for a season or two (out of his 6 year deal), then fine. It just means that they are going to need to get more contribution from a cheaper player (Rask, Dalpe, Dwyer, 1st round pick, Welsh, etc...) like they have with Tlusty.
Agreed.

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05-02-2013, 04:35 PM
  #737
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I'll take any bets that JStaal isn't our 3rd line center... lets see who's really confident

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05-02-2013, 04:44 PM
  #738
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That's a dumb bet to take. Everyone knows he is going to be a second line winger.

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05-02-2013, 04:45 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by Sasha Cares View Post
I'll take any bets that JStaal isn't our 3rd line center... lets see who's really confident
Agree with you.

If J Staal is a C it is on the 3rd line. He isn't a playmaker, plain and simple. He doesn't make his wingers better, his only real value at C is his ability to shut down the other team defensively.

His value as a huge power forward with moderate offensive ability is diminished if he has to play high forward. He needs to be getting deep and setting up camp in front of the net. I only see him accomplishing this on the wing.

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05-02-2013, 04:52 PM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post

If J Staal is a C it is on the 3rd line. He isn't a playmaker, plain and simple. He doesn't make his wingers better, his only real value at C is his ability to shut down the other team defensively.
We're talking about the guy who scored 31 points in 48 games, right?

For reference:

David Backes: 28 points in 48 games.
David Krejci: 33 points in 47 games.
Joe Pavelski: 31 points in 48 games.
Mike Richards: 32 points in 48 games.

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05-02-2013, 04:57 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
We're talking about the guy who scored 31 points in 48 games, right?

For reference:

David Backes: 28 points in 48 games.
David Krejci: 33 points in 47 games.
Joe Pavelski: 31 points in 48 games.
Mike Richards: 32 points in 48 games.
And what does that matter? If you think he'll be a 3C, you don't know this organization really well.. He'll be a 2W long before a 3C

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05-02-2013, 04:57 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
We're talking about the guy who scored 31 points in 48 games, right?

For reference:

David Backes: 28 points in 48 games.
David Krejci: 33 points in 47 games.
Joe Pavelski: 31 points in 48 games.
Mike Richards: 32 points in 48 games.
I think he must be talking about Jared Staal, in which case I agree, he shouldn't be our 2nd line center.

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05-02-2013, 05:25 PM
  #743
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
We're talking about the guy who scored 31 points in 48 games, right?

For reference:

David Backes: 28 points in 48 games.
David Krejci: 33 points in 47 games.
Joe Pavelski: 31 points in 48 games.
Mike Richards: 32 points in 48 games.
We are talking about 2 completely different things. Staal isn't a distributor, he isn't a typical top-6 Center. He is the best defensive 3rd line C in the league but his game doesn't work being a top-6 playmaking C. You can see that in his lack of consistent chemistry with anyone on the team (save short stints with Skinner and Ruutu).

His best use will be at wing where he can get deep and play the net. His big body, power forward play style suits that position.

Nobody is disputing his ability to put up points.

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05-02-2013, 05:56 PM
  #744
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Call is line 2A/2B, Red/White, Panda/Rhinoceros or whatever the hell you want. Who gives a ****? The only people that care about line numbers are fans. If Jordan is getting the same ice time as this year and wingers like Ruutu, who really cares what his line is labeled?

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05-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #745
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because the 3rd line just won't get the same minutes as the 2nd

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05-02-2013, 06:47 PM
  #746
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
We are talking about 2 completely different things. Staal isn't a distributor, he isn't a typical top-6 Center. He is the best defensive 3rd line C in the league but his game doesn't work being a top-6 playmaking C. You can see that in his lack of consistent chemistry with anyone on the team (save short stints with Skinner and Ruutu).

His best use will be at wing where he can get deep and play the net. His big body, power forward play style suits that position.

Nobody is disputing his ability to put up points.
So because he's not a "playmaker", he isn't a top 6 center?


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05-02-2013, 06:56 PM
  #747
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because the 3rd line just won't get the same minutes as the 2nd
I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't believe it's unthinkable that a 3rd line with JStaal and Ruutu would see more icetime than the 2nd line with Skinner and Monahan. Plus, Staal would get PP and PK time. (I'm using these players on these lines because that's where this discussion started)

That is because in that scenario, Muller would likely be more comfortable in giving Jordan more minutes and responsibility than Skinner/Monahan. I don't know why Staal's line would be marked as the 3rd, perhaps because it would have more checking ability than the 2nd and for convenience's sake the supposed checking line would be labeled as the 3rd, but it doesn't matter.

But this is really a pointless discussion anyways. Like What the Faulk said, who cares about the line numbers?


Last edited by smi: 05-02-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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05-02-2013, 07:49 PM
  #748
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So because he's not a "playmaker", he isn't a top 6 center?
Precisely my point. Let me break it down in this Wikipedia definition of a Center.

Quote:
The centre (or center in the United States) in ice hockey is a forward position of a player whose primary zone of play is the middle of the ice, away from the side boards. Centres have more flexibility in their positioning and are expected to cover more ice surface than any other player. Centres are ideally stronger, faster skaters who can back check quickly from deep in the opposing zone. Generally, centres are expected to be gifted passers more so than goal scorers, although there are exceptions. They are also expected to have exceptional "ice vision", intelligence, and creativity. In addition they also generally are the most defensively oriented forward on the ice. Centres usually play as part of a line of players that are substituted frequently to keep fresh and the game moving. First liners are usually the top players, although some top players make the second line to allow for offensive scoring opportunities.
The whole thing is important, but lets focus on the bolded part.

Jordan Staal lacks being a gifted passer and his "ice vision", intelligence, and creativity are low-end compared to a prototypical top-6 Center. Victor Rask has all of these traits, he is a playmaking Center.

However, Jordan Staal may be the best in the NHL at playing the defensively oriented Center role. He back-checks very well, he is big and strong, and he can shut down opposing forwards in the most important defensive forward position.

If put in a winger role, Jordan would be allowed more freedom to battle along the boards, spend more time around the net using his big body as a screen, and have the ability to find seams in which to use his shot and score some more goals.

Posting point totals is almost meaningless. Ovechkin scores a ton of points but he wouldn't make a good Center.

[edit]

I should also add that we already have Eric Staal who isn't a great playmaker, but the addition of Semin (a high-end playmaking winger which are rare in the NHL) allowed him to thrive and play at an elite level. It is unlikely the Canes will find another Semin to boost Jordan. Meanwhile other teammates, especially Skinner, are hurting because they don't have a skilled pivot who can dish them passes like Semin does to Eric/Tlusty. I'm really hoping that Victor Rask is the solution this need.


Last edited by Jussijuice: 05-02-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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05-02-2013, 07:52 PM
  #749
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
Precisely my point. Let me break it down in this Wikipedia definition of a Center.



The whole thing is important, but lets focus on the bolded part.

Jordan Staal lacks being a gifted passer and is "ice vision", intelligence, and creativity are low-end compared to a prototypical top-6 Center. Victor Rask has all of these traits, he is a playmaking Center.

However, Jordan Staal may be the best in the NHL at playing the defensively oriented Center role. He back-checks very well, he is big and strong, and he can shut down opposing forwards in the most important defensive forward position.

If put in a winger role, Jordan would be allowed more freedom to battle along the boards, spend more time around the net using his big body as a screen, and have the ability to find seams in which to use his shot and score some more goals.

Posting point totals is almost meaningless. Ovechkin scores a ton of points but he wouldn't make a good Center.
If Jordan is more suited for the wing, why did Pittsburgh keep him at center when they were starving for wingers?

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05-02-2013, 07:54 PM
  #750
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If Jordan is more suited for the wing, why did Pittsburgh keep him at center when they were starving for wingers?
They did try him on Malkin's wing.

It didn't work.

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