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Marc Staal to Canes

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Old
05-01-2013, 04:32 PM
  #126
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You mean the point that the price tag is too high? Yeah, I'll stick with that line of thinking. Of course, you're not going to buy it, as you place an incredibly high value on one of your guys. Nothing wrong or unusual about it but he is not worth that kind of asking price to the Canes. Pure and simple.
Really? You thought I was debating the price tag without ever mentioning the price tag? Whew...

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05-01-2013, 04:35 PM
  #127
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So, now that you finally understood my point, you're going another route, eh? Don't blame you.

Forgetting for the moment the fact that Staal and Girardi were reunited earlier this year and the fact that they consistently played together for much of Staal's career, you are still missing the point about depth. The Canes don't and won't have that kind of top 4, meaning Staal will have to play more and tougher minutes.

So when Staal plays with MDZ and/or Stralman are you then contending that pair, anchored by Staal, went consistently up against the opponent's top line?


You mean the point that the price tag is too high? Yeah, I'll stick with that line of thinking. Of course, you're not going to buy it, as you place an incredibly high value on one of your guys. Nothing wrong or unusual about it but he is not worth that kind of asking price to the Canes. Pure and simple.
Considering Staal rarely got any PP time and played against every team's best players every night, I am not sure how he can play "tougher" minutes. Do you really believe he will play more than 25 minutes a night? Who was playing any minutes before? Are they all retiring?

You are arguing a point about a player who you didn't know much about (as has been proven a few times by our comments up to this point). When someone calls you out on it, all you do is slide over and state that is what you "meant".

At this point, I will just have to agree to disagree...

Also, on that last point, wouldn't you be guilty of the same exact thing with the Canes players? Pot calling the kettle black?

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05-01-2013, 04:37 PM
  #128
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We're going to give up Faulk or Skinner or a 1st for one-eyed Marc Staal? In what universe does this happen?

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05-01-2013, 04:42 PM
  #129
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We're going to give up Faulk or Skinner or a 1st for one-eyed Marc Staal? In what universe does this happen?
In what universe would the Rangers accept concussion poster boy Jeff Skinner for Marc Staal?

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05-01-2013, 04:44 PM
  #130
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In what universe would the Rangers accept concussion poster boy Jeff Skinner for Marc Staal?
Marc Staal's missed more games with a concussion than Skinner....

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05-01-2013, 04:46 PM
  #131
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Marc Staal's missed more games with a concussion than Skinner....
Skinner has had (2) concussions.

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05-01-2013, 04:46 PM
  #132
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Skinner has had (2) concussions.
Not sure how that makes him 'the poster boy' for concussions. It doesn't really make that much sense when Staal's concussion history is more severe in terms of affect on GP.

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05-01-2013, 04:49 PM
  #133
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Not sure how that makes him 'the poster boy' for concussions. It doesn't really make that much sense when Staal's concussion history is more severe in terms of affect on GP.
It was tongue in cheek. He called Staal "one-eyed".

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05-01-2013, 04:50 PM
  #134
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It was tongue in cheek. He called Staal "one-eyed".
Well the last player who took puck to the eye (Pronger) has become a human vegetable so.....

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05-01-2013, 04:53 PM
  #135
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Well the last player who took puck to the eye (Pronger) has become a human vegetable so.....
That makes him one-eyed? Interesting.

Is Staal yet another Ranger you despise for no good reason?

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05-01-2013, 04:57 PM
  #136
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Really? You thought I was debating the price tag without ever mentioning the price tag? Whew...
You jumped in right after the post about Murphy + #5 pick + prospect. I stated it was way too much from a Canes' perspective. That was my primary point before the homers here got ruffled by the fact I stated Staal isn't elite.

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Considering Staal rarely got any PP time and played against every team's best players every night, I am not sure how he can play "tougher" minutes. Do you really believe he will play more than 25 minutes a night? Who was playing any minutes before? Are they all retiring?

You are arguing a point about a player who you didn't know much about (as has been proven a few times by our comments up to this point). When someone calls you out on it, all you do is slide over and state that is what you "meant".
No, you're off target yet again and failed to answer my question. When Staal paired with Stralman or MDZ, are you contending that pairing consistently went against the top opponent's forward line?

That's what I mean about tougher minutes. He will go up against the top line every night regardless of his partner and will play more minutes on the PK. Seriously, it's not a simple matter of total TOI.

Called out? I seem to be arguing with posters who don't have "elite" reading comprehension or deploy pretzel logic at will. For the record, check back on what I posted about "different" vs "difficult." A simple typo and nothing more, as I originally wrote "different challenge" but if that's the straw you're grasping, you really have nothing.

Heck, you couldn't even follow the simple line of thought about playing with a good "caliber" D partner without getting totally turned inside out. Yet, I'm the one who is out to lunch, eh? Classic.

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05-02-2013, 01:05 PM
  #137
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05-02-2013, 01:43 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
You jumped in right after the post about Murphy + #5 pick + prospect. I stated it was way too much from a Canes' perspective. That was my primary point before the homers here got ruffled by the fact I stated Staal isn't elite.


No, you're off target yet again and failed to answer my question. When Staal paired with Stralman or MDZ, are you contending that pairing consistently went against the top opponent's forward line?

That's what I mean about tougher minutes. He will go up against the top line every night regardless of his partner and will play more minutes on the PK. Seriously, it's not a simple matter of total TOI.

Called out? I seem to be arguing with posters who don't have "elite" reading comprehension or deploy pretzel logic at will. For the record, check back on what I posted about "different" vs "difficult." A simple typo and nothing more, as I originally wrote "different challenge" but if that's the straw you're grasping, you really have nothing.

Heck, you couldn't even follow the simple line of thought about playing with a good "caliber" D partner without getting totally turned inside out. Yet, I'm the one who is out to lunch, eh? Classic.
You can write multi-paragraph responses to make yourself feel better if you want. It is still blatantly obvious you don't watch Marc play.

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05-02-2013, 02:15 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
You can write multi-paragraph responses to make yourself feel better if you want. It is still blatantly obvious you don't watch Marc play.
Is that a fact? Well then, and this is the third time I've tried to get you to answer this simple question, let's try again to get your expert analysis, ok?

When, as you wrote, Staal paired with Stralman or MDZ, are you contending those pairings consistently went against the opponent's top forward line?

Hint: think before you make a knee-jerk response. That is, if you decide to actually answer it this time.

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05-02-2013, 03:46 PM
  #140
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Is that a fact? Well then, and this is the third time I've tried to get you to answer this simple question, let's try again to get your expert analysis, ok?

When, as you wrote, Staal paired with Stralman or MDZ, are you contending those pairings consistently went against the opponent's top forward line?

Hint: think before you make a knee-jerk response. That is, if you decide to actually answer it this time.
Yes. Simple enough?

Staal is the Rangers match-up d-man. He goes out against the other teams best player night-in and night-out. Who his partner is, has changed.

Odd though considering you thought Girardi and McDonagh were better players than Staal earlier in this thread.

So are you telling me there are harder minutes to play than against Giroux, Kovalchuk, Tavares, Crosby and Malkin on most nights within the division?

Hint: Think about how much you have seen Staal play before offering up a knee-jerk response.

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05-02-2013, 04:18 PM
  #141
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Yes. Simple enough?

Staal is the Rangers match-up d-man. He goes out against the other teams best player night-in and night-out. Who his partner is, has changed.

Odd though considering you thought Girardi and McDonagh were better players than Staal earlier in this thread.
Simple in the sense that you are wrong. So, as the self-appointed expert, you are trying to say that when Staal's partner is Stralman or MDZ, that pair is the shutdown pair? Your perception is so far from reality. The reality? Over the last 2 seasons, both McD and G have consistently gone up against tougher lines. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You still can't figure out the "caliber" comment? Really? I never stated or implied that. Go back and read what I wrote, which was that the Carolina D had nobody as good as McD or G. Thus it'd be more of a challenge for him in Carolina. Though other NYR fans were in on that discussion, you are the only one who can't quite grasp it.

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05-02-2013, 05:27 PM
  #142
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2012-2013: Marc Staal played most of the time with MDZ. Second most common d-pairing was Girardi (Stralman or whatever is not on here).

2011-2012: MDZ. Rest are forwards (again, no Stralman).

2010-2011: Marc Staal and Dan Girardi spent 70% of the time together.

2009-2010: Michal Rosival and Dan Girardi.

Source: Behindthenet.ca

If traded to the 'Canes, Marc Staal would be the best defender on our team by far. It's really not up for debate unless you think Faulk is in contention.

Just because we don't have a player of the caliber of Girardi (which I disagree with: Faulk and Pitkanen) does not mean that Staal will experience a drop off. It isn't that simple. Suter went from playing with Weber to a 19 year old, and he went from top-5 at best to Norris contender, as an example.

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05-02-2013, 05:34 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
2012-2013: Marc Staal played most of the time with MDZ. Second most common d-pairing was Girardi (Stralman or whatever is not on here).

2011-2012: MDZ. Rest are forwards (again, no Stralman).

2010-2011: Marc Staal and Dan Girardi spent 70% of the time together.

2009-2010: Michal Rosival and Dan Girardi.

Source: Behindthenet.ca

If traded to the 'Canes, Marc Staal would be the best defender on our team by far. It's really not up for debate unless you think Faulk is in contention.

Just because we don't have a player of the caliber of Girardi (which I disagree with: Faulk and Pitkanen) does not mean that Staal will experience a drop off. It isn't that simple. Suter went from playing with Weber to a 19 year old, and he went from top-5 at best to Norris contender, as an example.
As the best defender, he'd be up against top lines every night in the Canes D system. He hasn't done that the last couple of years and thus is in for a different challenge, including a heavier PK load.

The bigger point though was the asking price is way too high (Murphy + #5 + prospect) and there's very little salary offset.

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05-02-2013, 05:43 PM
  #144
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As the best defender, he'd be up against top lines every night in the Canes D system. He hasn't done that the last couple of years and thus is in for a different challenge, including a heavier PK load.
Coinciding with the emergence of McDonaugh.

In 2010-2011, Staal had the highest QoC and second highest Rel. QoC, where the Rangers had the 5th best GA/G in the NHL.

In 09-10, again Staal lead in these qualities, and the Rangers had the 10th best GA/G.

So a defense lead by M. Staal has had success before. This isn't trading for Jordan and hoping that he can excel when given more opportunity (which he has, BTW).

And I agree, the price is incredibly steep for Marc. He won't go for what Rangers fans want in here, just like Jordan didn't go for Skinner+ ("Shero won't deal unless it improves our team" my ass).

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05-02-2013, 05:50 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Coinciding with the emergence of McDonaugh.

In 2010-2011, Staal had the highest QoC and second highest Rel. QoC, where the Rangers had the 5th best GA/G in the NHL.

In 09-10, again Staal lead in these qualities, and the Rangers had the 10th best GA/G.

So a defense lead by M. Staal has had success before. This isn't trading for Jordan and hoping that he can excel when given more opportunity (which he has, BTW).

And I agree, the price is incredibly steep for Marc. He won't go for what Rangers fans want in here, just like Jordan didn't go for Skinner+ ("Shero won't deal unless it improves our team" my ass).
Yes, as I've stated he's a very good D just not "elite" and thus not worth that kind of package. I think some posters here have been asleep at the switch in terms of Staal's actual role vs. McD & G over the last couple of years.

Taking your advanced stats a bit further, check out HA's Player Usage Charts from 11-12 and 12-13. http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

Both McD & G consistently faced tougher opponents. But shhhh, don't tell anyone.

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05-02-2013, 07:22 PM
  #146
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Yes, as I've stated he's a very good D just not "elite" and thus not worth that kind of package. I think some posters here have been asleep at the switch in terms of Staal's actual role vs. McD & G over the last couple of years.

Taking your advanced stats a bit further, check out HA's Player Usage Charts from 11-12 and 12-13. http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

Both McD & G consistently faced tougher opponents. But shhhh, don't tell anyone.
McD and Girardi became our top-pair when Staal was out with a concussion. Torts kept that pair together since Marc's conditioning and game was off due to missing extended time.

Marc's the teams best dmen. He's been the main cog against opposing teams top lines for years. McDonagh may surpass Staal's ability one day, but as of right now Marc's 'A' game and shutdown ability are ahead of both McD and Girardi. If you watch the team regularly, you would understand that it's not really debatable.

The only thing separating Marc from "elite" status, is a booming shot. He's no chara or weber, and never will be. But from a defensive standpoint, he's as elite as they come. And his puck-moving capabilities aren't too shabby, at all.

Most Rangers fans have made peace with the fact that any type of offensive production out of Staal, is just gravy. And up until he got hit with a puck, he was showing elements of that offensive swagger we hoped for.

I think you're underestimating Staal. Probably because you haven't watched almost every single shift he's played in his career like some of us. He would be a tremendous asset for any team that needs help on the blueline. And, he still hasn't played his best hockey, imo.

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05-03-2013, 08:45 AM
  #147
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Yes, as I've stated he's a very good D just not "elite" and thus not worth that kind of package. I think some posters here have been asleep at the switch in terms of Staal's actual role vs. McD & G over the last couple of years.

Taking your advanced stats a bit further, check out HA's Player Usage Charts from 11-12 and 12-13. http://www.hockeyabstract.com/playerusagecharts

Both McD & G consistently faced tougher opponents. But shhhh, don't tell anyone.
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McD and Girardi became our top-pair when Staal was out with a concussion. Torts kept that pair together since Marc's conditioning and game was off due to missing extended time.

Marc's the teams best dmen. He's been the main cog against opposing teams top lines for years. McDonagh may surpass Staal's ability one day, but as of right now Marc's 'A' game and shutdown ability are ahead of both McD and Girardi. If you watch the team regularly, you would understand that it's not really debatable.

The only thing separating Marc from "elite" status, is a booming shot. He's no chara or weber, and never will be. But from a defensive standpoint, he's as elite as they come. And his puck-moving capabilities aren't too shabby, at all.

Most Rangers fans have made peace with the fact that any type of offensive production out of Staal, is just gravy. And up until he got hit with a puck, he was showing elements of that offensive swagger we hoped for.

I think you're underestimating Staal. Probably because you haven't watched almost every single shift he's played in his career like some of us. He would be a tremendous asset for any team that needs help on the blueline. And, he still hasn't played his best hockey, imo.
Shhh! Boom Boom! StormCast knows ALL about the Rangers!

It's obvious he does not watch the Rangers and yet when people who know what they are talking about attempt to correct him he gets his panties in a bunch.

At this point, I wouldn't waste your time.

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05-03-2013, 09:26 AM
  #148
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McD and Girardi became our top-pair when Staal was out with a concussion. Torts kept that pair together since Marc's conditioning and game was off due to missing extended time.

Marc's the teams best dmen. He's been the main cog against opposing teams top lines for years. McDonagh may surpass Staal's ability one day, but as of right now Marc's 'A' game and shutdown ability are ahead of both McD and Girardi. If you watch the team regularly, you would understand that it's not really debatable.

The only thing separating Marc from "elite" status, is a booming shot. He's no chara or weber, and never will be. But from a defensive standpoint, he's as elite as they come. And his puck-moving capabilities aren't too shabby, at all.
No question that his concussion issues led to some sheltered minutes as he worked his way back into form. However, even when he did last season and earlier this season when he was healthy, it was McD & G who did most of the heavy lifting in terms of facing top lines and the difference was significant.

Feel free to review my prior link from this season and this one from last season, both of which fully support my stated observations.

https://e9b8db0d-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0 PUC from 2011-12.

Interestingly, we agree he is not "elite" and most of it stems from his offensive game. But I think it's more than the lack of a booming shot thought I do agree some of the other aspects of his offensive game do seem to be rounding out.

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At this point, I wouldn't waste your time.
Ah, but you keep coming back each time with nothing to defend your position because...well...it's indefensible. Remember, you insisted that MStaal over the last couple of years was THE guy playing the primary shutdown role regardless of his partner (well, I did have to ask you 3 times and pretty obvious now why you were reluctant to respond).

But that was flat out wrong and it's not an opinion, it's fact. Be sure to check those links. You know that ones that fully, empirically support what I've contended all along and fully refutes your position. Now before you try to debunk the data, I'd suggest you use a simple litmus test. Check out the data for guys like Chara and Weber.

Funny thing too that BBG and I both agree that Staal isn't "elite" yet here you are trying to align yourself with his POV. The other funny thing here is that my original premise was simply that Staal is not "elite" and not worth a package of Murphy + #5 + prospect to the Canes.

I stated my case - part of it fact and part of it opinion - but all you've done is try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, the facts tell another story but oh well. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some more misinformation or character assassination.

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05-03-2013, 12:19 PM
  #149
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Source: you don't watch the Rangers at all. Stop trying.

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05-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
McD and Girardi became our top-pair when Staal was out with a concussion. Torts kept that pair together since Marc's conditioning and game was off due to missing extended time.

Marc's the teams best dmen. He's been the main cog against opposing teams top lines for years. McDonagh may surpass Staal's ability one day, but as of right now Marc's 'A' game and shutdown ability are ahead of both McD and Girardi. If you watch the team regularly, you would understand that it's not really debatable.

The only thing separating Marc from "elite" status, is a booming shot. He's no chara or weber, and never will be. But from a defensive standpoint, he's as elite as they come. And his puck-moving capabilities aren't too shabby, at all.

Most Rangers fans have made peace with the fact that any type of offensive production out of Staal, is just gravy. And up until he got hit with a puck, he was showing elements of that offensive swagger we hoped for.

I think you're underestimating Staal. Probably because you haven't watched almost every single shift he's played in his career like some of us. He would be a tremendous asset for any team that needs help on the blueline. And, he still hasn't played his best hockey, imo.
Spot on, Boom Boom. I don't think Staal has nearly peaked yet.

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