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Marc Staal to Canes

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Old
05-03-2013, 11:26 AM
  #151
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
No question that his concussion issues led to some sheltered minutes as he worked his way back into form. However, even when he did last season and earlier this season when he was healthy, it was McD & G who did most of the heavy lifting in terms of facing top lines and the difference was significant.

Feel free to review my prior link from this season and this one from last season, both of which fully support my stated observations.

https://e9b8db0d-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0 PUC from 2011-12.

Interestingly, we agree he is not "elite" and most of it stems from his offensive game. But I think it's more than the lack of a booming shot thought I do agree some of the other aspects of his offensive game do seem to be rounding out.


Ah, but you keep coming back each time with nothing to defend your position because...well...it's indefensible. Remember, you insisted that MStaal over the last couple of years was THE guy playing the primary shutdown role regardless of his partner (well, I did have to ask you 3 times and pretty obvious now why you were reluctant to respond).

But that was flat out wrong and it's not an opinion, it's fact. Be sure to check those links. You know that ones that fully, empirically support what I've contended all along and fully refutes your position. Now before you try to debunk the data, I'd suggest you use a simple litmus test. Check out the data for guys like Chara and Weber.

Funny thing too that BBG and I both agree that Staal isn't "elite" yet here you are trying to align yourself with his POV. The other funny thing here is that my original premise was simply that Staal is not "elite" and not worth a package of Murphy + #5 + prospect to the Canes.

I stated my case - part of it fact and part of it opinion - but all you've done is try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Well, the facts tell another story but oh well. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with some more misinformation or character assassination.
Normally, Boyler is not the kind to just come flat out and say something like "you don't know what you're talking about..." Like someone like myself or Boom Boom or even Jonathan would have no problem doing. However, you're just wrong in this case.

Stop pretending to watch this team, because you don't your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to the Rangers.

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Old
05-03-2013, 11:43 AM
  #152
Finlandia WOAT
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Source: you don't watch the Rangers at all. Stop trying.
I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument with two mods who have nothing better to do over whether a guy is "elite" or not.

But the data does support, to an extent, what StormCast is saying. M. Staal was the main guy on the Rangers, and then a concussion, a puck to the eye and the emergence of McDonaugh as a legit #1 changed that.

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05-03-2013, 02:09 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Normally, Boyler is not the kind to just come flat out and say something like "you don't know what you're talking about..." Like someone like myself or Boom Boom or even Jonathan would have no problem doing. However, you're just wrong in this case.

Stop pretending to watch this team, because you don't your ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to the Rangers.
Care to point out my error or are you just the latest poster to get worked up because I don't buy the Staal is "elite" mantra that's apparently in the Blue Kool-Aid? I've already pointed out where Boyler was wrong about Staal's role the last 2 years and then backed it with empirical evidence.

What's so funny is that although I have seen the NYR and Staal play on a number of occasions, I have little doubt you guys have watched more than I have. However, even with that advantage, it was my observation - untainted by home team fandom I guess - that was accurate and proven to be so. But enough about me.

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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument with two mods who have nothing better to do over whether a guy is "elite" or not.

But the data does support, to an extent, what StormCast is saying. M. Staal was the main guy on the Rangers, and then a concussion, a puck to the eye and the emergence of McDonaugh as a legit #1 changed that.
How dare you cite data? It's an interesting reaction, or over-reaction, to the simple assertion that Staal is not "elite" isn't it? And I love the because you disagree with my opinion, you haven't watched my team argument. Even when confronted with the facts, they stick to their beliefs. Maybe they are grumpy from witnessing some Capital punishment last night?

By the way, did I ever tell you that I think Lundqvist is overrated?

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05-03-2013, 03:45 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Care to point out my error or are you just the latest poster to get worked up because I don't buy the Staal is "elite" mantra that's apparently in the Blue Kool-Aid? I've already pointed out where Boyler was wrong about Staal's role the last 2 years and then backed it with empirical evidence.

What's so funny is that although I have seen the NYR and Staal play on a number of occasions, I have little doubt you guys have watched more than I have. However, even with that advantage, it was my observation - untainted by home team fandom I guess - that was accurate and proven to be so. But enough about me.


How dare you cite data? It's an interesting reaction, or over-reaction, to the simple assertion that Staal is not "elite" isn't it? And I love the because you disagree with my opinion, you haven't watched my team argument. Even when confronted with the facts, they stick to their beliefs. Maybe they are grumpy from witnessing some Capital punishment last night?

By the way, did I ever tell you that I think Lundqvist is overrated?
I haven't read through the whole thread. However I have seen you state time and again that Murphy, the 5th in 2013 and a prospect is an overpayment for Staal.

What I haven't seen, and again, I have not read through the whole thread, is what you think would be a fair offer for Staal?

Mind you, for all the brow beating you have bestowed on Staal, Staal's acquisition would make him your top defenceman AND you have to add in the marketing possibilities in having all four Staal's on the team.

I'm interested in finding out what you think he's worth and by all means, present a straight Hockey Trade offer, and then present the offer that takes into consideration the off-ice potential.

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05-03-2013, 05:01 PM
  #155
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I haven't read through the whole thread. However I have seen you state time and again that Murphy, the 5th in 2013 and a prospect is an overpayment for Staal.

What I haven't seen, and again, I have not read through the whole thread, is what you think would be a fair offer for Staal?

Mind you, for all the brow beating you have bestowed on Staal, Staal's acquisition would make him your top defenceman AND you have to add in the marketing possibilities in having all four Staal's on the team.

I'm interested in finding out what you think he's worth and by all means, present a straight Hockey Trade offer, and then present the offer that takes into consideration the off-ice potential.
Fair enough and finally back to the original premise. However, before I go there, I want to address the bold part above. I've hardly said a negative word about Staal and called him very good just not elite.

I also shot down the false notion that he was the consistent go-to shutdown D over the last couple of years. He wasn't and it doesn't make him bad, just not as potentially valuable since he'd play that role in Carolina. Plus his supporting cast, both in terms of the D corps and forwards, aren't as good defensively as his NYR teammates. Again, it's relevant as it goes to his value. And, I have not once brought up his health even though that could be a factor. That's more than fair, despite the incessant whining from the fanboys. Any brow beating I've done have done at their expense.

Anyway back to your question. I think centering a deal on the 5th pick is ok but I wouldn't give up Murphy. The PP was a train wreck until MAB was brought in and Murphy also improved it quite a bit in his brief audition. Also, the Canes aren't in a position to trade two ELC's (Murphy's plus the #5) and take on Staal's salary. They will need another D too to shore up the Swiss cheese blue line. I'd offer Pitkanen + #5 + a 3rd for a healthy Staal. I'm sure that package won't excite Rangers fans but that's what I'd offer. Pitkanen would improve the transition game and a weak PP. Again, it'd be a no-go from NYR but I'd also be content to wait for Staal as a UFA, as he is not THE missing link to a championship team in the next 2 years.

As for the off-ice value, it's negligible (and the reason for the 3rd), as it's been with Jordan. The Staals are as exciting and dynamic off the ice as vanilla ice cream. There just is not much buzz even with the brothers angle.

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05-04-2013, 08:17 AM
  #156
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Fair enough and finally back to the original premise. However, before I go there, I want to address the bold part above. I've hardly said a negative word about Staal and called him very good just not elite.

I also shot down the false notion that he was the consistent go-to shutdown D over the last couple of years. He wasn't and it doesn't make him bad, just not as potentially valuable since he'd play that role in Carolina. Plus his supporting cast, both in terms of the D corps and forwards, aren't as good defensively as his NYR teammates. Again, it's relevant as it goes to his value. And, I have not once brought up his health even though that could be a factor. That's more than fair, despite the incessant whining from the fanboys. Any brow beating I've done have done at their expense.

Anyway back to your question. I think centering a deal on the 5th pick is ok but I wouldn't give up Murphy. The PP was a train wreck until MAB was brought in and Murphy also improved it quite a bit in his brief audition. Also, the Canes aren't in a position to trade two ELC's (Murphy's plus the #5) and take on Staal's salary. They will need another D too to shore up the Swiss cheese blue line. I'd offer Pitkanen + #5 + a 3rd for a healthy Staal. I'm sure that package won't excite Rangers fans but that's what I'd offer. Pitkanen would improve the transition game and a weak PP. Again, it'd be a no-go from NYR but I'd also be content to wait for Staal as a UFA, as he is not THE missing link to a championship team in the next 2 years.

As for the off-ice value, it's negligible (and the reason for the 3rd), as it's been with Jordan. The Staals are as exciting and dynamic off the ice as vanilla ice cream. There just is not much buzz even with the brothers angle.
As it relates to his role on the team, his role as shut down defenceman being reduced has everything to do with injuries and not ability. When healthy, he is the Rangers best defenceman. He's had no training camp after getting concussed and this year he had no camp and prior to getting a puck to the noggin, was the Rangers best overall defenceman on pace for a 25 point campaign. Which would have been a 40+ point season over a full season.

No one can dispute the concussion, and obviously the eye thing is concerning, but he's had no concussion symptoms from this puck to the head thing so that's a bit of relief as it relates to the concussion issue. His vision is improving to the point where he's expected back in this first round.

I think that you are placing way to much value on the fact that he's being eased back into the role as the teams #1 defenceman. Putting him in that spot is more detrimental then beneficial as it's the long term health and benefit that matters to both the team and the player. Not the immediate benefit that also carries the most risk of error.

While I can appreciate you not wanting to pay the appropriate price for a top pairing defenceman, because regardless of what you have posted Staal IS a top pairing defenceman, he's not getting moved for anything less than an overpayment of sorts.

Pitkanen is a solid offensive defenceman that could help the PP. He is however a liability in his own end and always has been. We have that now with MDZ. The difference is that MDZ can and will get better as he is still learning the position at 23 years old. Joni at 29 (will be 30 for the 13-14 season) is what he is.

As for the off-ice value to the Canes, I think you can look at the numerous threads that have popped up as it relates to this very topic since the Jordan acquisition to see what kind of value it would have on the Org. should it happen.

The Canes organization is vanilla (no knock) so having a set of four brothers on one team that fit the identity of the Organization is not a bad thing.

As it relates to the offer, I can see the benefit of it. I can also see the Rangers being willing to do something like that as it gives a replacement for the year and removes the salary obligation after the season as Joni would be a UFA after the 13-14 season.

That said, the 3rd would have to be improved for this to make sense for the Rangers. Thinking Brock McGinn would be a solid add on.

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05-04-2013, 09:45 AM
  #157
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Pitkanen is a solid offensive defenceman that could help the PP. He is however a liability in his own end and always has been.
False. Pitkanen is actually pretty solid in his own zone. His knock is that he is never healthy.

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05-04-2013, 10:05 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
As it relates to his role on the team, his role as shut down defenceman being reduced has everything to do with injuries and not ability. When healthy, he is the Rangers best defenceman. He's had no training camp after getting concussed and this year he had no camp and prior to getting a puck to the noggin, was the Rangers best overall defenceman on pace for a 25 point campaign. Which would have been a 40+ point season over a full season.

No one can dispute the concussion, and obviously the eye thing is concerning, but he's had no concussion symptoms from this puck to the head thing so that's a bit of relief as it relates to the concussion issue. His vision is improving to the point where he's expected back in this first round.

I think that you are placing way to much value on the fact that he's being eased back into the role as the teams #1 defenceman. Putting him in that spot is more detrimental then beneficial as it's the long term health and benefit that matters to both the team and the player. Not the immediate benefit that also carries the most risk of error.

While I can appreciate you not wanting to pay the appropriate price for a top pairing defenceman, because regardless of what you have posted Staal IS a top pairing defenceman, he's not getting moved for anything less than an overpayment of sorts.

Pitkanen is a solid offensive defenceman that could help the PP. He is however a liability in his own end and always has been. We have that now with MDZ. The difference is that MDZ can and will get better as he is still learning the position at 23 years old. Joni at 29 (will be 30 for the 13-14 season) is what he is.

As for the off-ice value to the Canes, I think you can look at the numerous threads that have popped up as it relates to this very topic since the Jordan acquisition to see what kind of value it would have on the Org. should it happen.

The Canes organization is vanilla (no knock) so having a set of four brothers on one team that fit the identity of the Organization is not a bad thing.

As it relates to the offer, I can see the benefit of it. I can also see the Rangers being willing to do something like that as it gives a replacement for the year and removes the salary obligation after the season as Joni would be a UFA after the 13-14 season.

That said, the 3rd would have to be improved for this to make sense for the Rangers. Thinking Brock McGinn would be a solid add on.
I never wrote that he wasn't a top pairing D, not once. What I posted was that he wasn't "elite" and I wasn't alone in that opinion. It was in reference to his value, this is a trade thread after all. said consistently he'd be used THE guy in Carolina but that the supporting cast isn't as good and with limited depth on D. Look at JStaal, as I pointed out early on. He was a supposed elite shutdown center (I disputed that even after the trade) and he was average at best this past season in that capacity. Partly because he was overrated and partly due to a lesser supporting cast.

As for Pitkanen, it's consistent intensity and health that are concerns. He is far better than MDZ in his own end overall and was probably playing his best defensive hockey before getting injured. However, as stated, I didn't expect it to be an acceptable proposal but you asked. It's what I'd pay now and tried to provide the rationale. Again, he's not the missing piece, unless you count cornering all the Staals, and I'd bide my time until he's a UFA.

On the cachet of another Staal, the interest in HF is great but it's the interest and revenue generated in this market that counts. Trust me, and I agree with you it's a vanilla organization, there hasn't been a big benefit from having Jordan join Eric. And Jared? Please. Anyway, good to have a decent conversation on this topic without the know-it-all posturing from those who really don't.

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