HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Jim Coleman Conference Semifinals - New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. Hartford Whalers

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-30-2013, 10:57 AM
  #1
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Jim Coleman Conference Semifinals - New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. Hartford Whalers

New Jersey Swamp Devils



Head Coach: Glen Sather
Assistant Coach: Roger Neilson

Sid Abel(A) - Phil Esposito - George Armstrong(C)
Ilya Kovalchuk - Milan Novy - Daniel Alfredsson(A)
Tony Leswick - Ken Mosdell - Rejean Houle
Ed Sandford - Bill Thoms - Jerry Toppazzini
Clint Smith

Paul Coffey - Bill White
Lloyd Cook - Tom Johnson
Gary Bergman - Doug Young
Miroslav Dvorak - Bob Dailey

Frank Brimsek
Jiri Kralik

PP
Sid Abel - Phil Esposito - Daniel Alfredsson
Ilya Kovalchuk - Paul Coffey

Milan Novy - Bill Thoms - George Armstrong
Lloyd Cook - Tom Johnson

Kovalchuk moves up front when NJ has a lead late in the third period; Lloyd Cook takes his place on the first unit.

PK
Ken Mosdell - Jerry Toppazzini
Tom Johnson - Bill White

Bill Thoms - Tony Leswick
Gary Bergman - Doug Young

Sid Abel - Daniel Alfredsson will take some shifts to press for SHGs

vs.

Hartford Whalers



Coach: Al Arbour
Assistant coach:

Bobby Hull - Sergei Fedorov (A) - Theo Fleury
Keith Tkachuk - Pavel Datsyuk - Pavel Bure
Johnny Gottselig - Mike Peca (C) - Igor Liba
Tomas Sandstrom - Dan Bain - Paul MacLean
Miroslav Satan, Harry Oliver, Ladislav Trojak

Bill Gadsby - Harvey Pulford (A)
Moose Vasko - Wade Redden
Reed Larson - Robert Svehla
Graham Drinkwater

Harry Lumley
Mike Liut


PP1: Fedorov - Gadsby - Hull - Tkachuk - Bure
PP2: Larson - Redden - Datsyuk - MacLean - Fleury

PK1: Vasko - Pulford - Peca - Fedorov
PK2: Gadsby - Svehla - Datsyuk - Liba


"giving Fleury and Bure some SH icetime from time to time when my team is in the lead (and only then)."


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-06-2013 at 08:12 AM.
Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 01:31 PM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Congrats on beating a strong Hershey team to get here, Mad.

I'll post an updated roster post and minutes chart in a little bit, then probably start substantive arguments tomorrow.

One thing I can say for now - Rejean Houle will definitely take a bigger role this series as Bobby Hull's shadow.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-30-2013, 01:59 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Swamp Devils updated Roster and minutes chart

First off, I'm moving Mosdell back up to third line C and putting Rejean Houle on his RW. If anyone noticed in the roster thread, this is the same line that checked Hartford's top line during the regular season. I'll edit the OP to make this clear.

Houle in particular is going to be heavily relied on at even strength to shadow Bobby Hull. That's the one and only matchup the Swamp Devils really care about.

Forwards

forwardESPPPKTotal
Sid Abel15 4120
Phil Esposito175022
George Armstrong143017
Ilya Kovalchuk135018
Milan Novy113014
Daniel Alfredsson124117
Tony Leswick120315
Ken Mosdell120315
Rejean Houle150015
Ed Sandford6006
Bill Thoms62311
Jerry Toppazzini5038
Total1382614178
  • Esposito's extra ice time will be mostly at the expense of Novy. Sather was known for giving Gretzky extra ice time with a variety of wingers, and I see him doing the same for Esposito. The more Espo sees Hartford's 2nd and 3rd defensive pairings, the happier I am.
  • The Mosdell line will be matched against the Fedorov line when possible, but the key matchup will be Rejean Houle vs Bobby Hull. When Hull steps on the ice, getting Houle out against him will be the top priority for the Swamp Devils. This is reflected in Houle's extra ES ice time.

Defense

defenseESPPPKTotal
Paul Coffey196025
Bill White190423
Lloyd Cook152<117
Tom Johnson181423
Gary Bergman120315
Doug Young90312
Total92914114
  • Bergman-Johnson will sometimes be paired together, mostly in defensive situations
  • Only 9 of 46 min of ES ice time when neither the Coffey-White pairing nor Tom Johnson is on the ice


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-30-2013 at 02:16 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2013, 04:29 PM
  #4
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
I am interested to hear MadAr's thoughts on how Arbour's team will check the Swamp Devils in this series. As far as coaching matchups that actually occured in real life go, this is one of the more one-sided that I know of, but Hartford are not the Islanders and New Jersey are not the Oilers, so the deck has been reshuffled to a certain extent.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-02-2013, 05:53 PM
  #5
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I am interested to hear MadAr's thoughts on how Arbour's team will check the Swamp Devils in this series. As far as coaching matchups that actually occured in real life go, this is one of the more one-sided that I know of, but Hartford are not the Islanders and New Jersey are not the Oilers, so the deck has been reshuffled to a certain extent.
One thing for sure they have the depth defensively at center!

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-03-2013, 02:14 AM
  #6
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,512
vCash: 500
I wonder how the not-so-fleet-of-foot Devils plan to handle the speed of my team.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-03-2013, 06:13 PM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Containing Bobby Hull

Bobby Hull is Hartford's most dangerous scorer by a wide margin. Not only is Hull a superstar even at the ATD level, but I honestly don't think Hartford has another forward who would be an ideal first liner. (Does anyone disagree?)

Rejean Houle will shadow Bobby Hull whenever possible through the whole series

This is by far the most important matchup for NJ.

As a young player, Rejean Houle had success shadowing Bobby Hull in real life. I think my Rejean Houle profile is the best one I made this ATD, so I would encourage GMs to read it or at least skim it. At the bottom of the profile, I have several quotes from the 1971 regular season and playoffs about Houle shadowing Houle. By game 5 of the SC finals, Bobby Hull's Blackhawks were reduced to physically assaulting Houle. Houle, a small player, was knocked down, but kept coming back for more and kept using his speed to follow Hull around the ice. The most impressive quote is from Sports Illustrated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsIllustrated, May 31, 1971
L'Affaire Richard aside, the Canadiens really won the cup because of the play of two rookies -- Goalie Ken Dryden and Forward Rejean Houle, or Hooley, as Bobby Hull's shadow was known in Chicago. "If it weren't for that Dryden," said Boston's Phil Esposito before the seventh game of the Montreal-Chicago series, "the Canadiens would have been on vacation five weeks ago."

Dryden entered the playoffs as the veteran of only six NHL games -- all victories. Just up from the minors, he carried the Canadiens past the Bruins in the first round, played superbly against Minnesota in the second and then by thwarting the Black Hawks won the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable of all the cup players. Ironically, according to the rules, Dryden still can win the Rookie of the Year award next season ...

While Dryden continually repulsed the Chicago shooters, Houle harassed Bobby Hull so effectively that throughout the seven-game series Hull scored only one goal while the teams were playing at equal strength ...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...anley_cup/70s/

1971 was the only time Houle shadowed Hull in the playoffs, but Houle still had a reputation as "The Shadow" in the late 70s, so I don't think it was a one-time thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, Sept 21, 1978
The plethora of specialists on the Canadiens is what drove other teams to despair in recent seasons... Rick Chartraw the Bruiser, Doug Jarvis, the Face-Off Man, Doug Risebrough the Needle, Bob Gainey the Checker, Pierre Larouche, Monsieur Finesse, Rejean Houle the Shadow, and Yvon Lambert, Mr. Screen
This will be a real shadowing situation - as soon as Bobby Hull steps on the ice, NJ will change our RW on the fly to get Houle out there, often (but not always) followed by the rest of NJ's checking line (Mosdell and Leswick).

Houle will not play a single second of special teams time, saving him for matching up against Bobby Hull at even strength.

I don't know if Glen Sather ever implemented a shadowing situation in real life - Sather was blessed with Wayne Gretzky who would have been the best player by far for either team, so it was usually the other team going after Gretzky. But Sather was known as a coach who really got his assistants involved in strategizing, and I can see a defensive-minded tactician like Roger Neilson pushing a scheme like this. Sather's top offensive players went all-offense, but he did make use of defensive-minded role players both in Edmonton (where he tried to matchup Kevin Lowe against top scoreres) and internationally.

As the head coach, it would be up to Sather to implement, but there really isn't anything difficult coaching-wise about having one of your players shadow the best player of the other team if you're committed to that one particular player-on-player matchup over anything else.

Houle will usually be supported by Mosdell and Leswick

In particular, Ken Mosdell's well-rounded defensive game and puck possession abilities (see the profile I finally finished a couple of days ago for proof of this) will provide strong defensive support for Houle.

Tony Leswick also helps out - he was one of the fastest players of his era, very good defensively, and a general ******* to play again.

NJ has home ice advantage if this one goes 7 games, and at home I expect to get this matchup most of the time, since Sather can always just wait and see if Bobby Hull is out there before putting out the third line. When it comes to changes on the fly, Rejean Houle will always be the first forward to step out on the ice.

I can, however, see Abel-Esposito-Houle being for an offensive zone draw from time to time if Bobby Hull is on the ice.

On the road (and at home if Bobby Hull gets changed in on the fly), NJ's right wings will change on the fly as soon as possible to maintain the Houle on Hull shadowing situation.

Every one of NJ's right wings is strong defensively and hard working along the boards

This accomplishes two things:
  • When the right wings of the lines get scrambled because of the shadowing situation, the lines will still be able to function. In that sense, NJ's forward lines are structured in an almost ideal way to use a shadow on the RW.
  • In those relatively rare instances when Houle isn't out there against Hull, there will still be someone strong defensively on the right side to look after him.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-03-2013 at 06:39 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-03-2013, 06:22 PM
  #8
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
One thing for sure they have the depth defensively at center!
They definitely have defensive depth at center. On the other hand, none of Hull, Tkachuk, or Bure is the type of winger to really play a structured system. Maybe Tkachuk could do it with proper coaching, but free-wheeling was such a huge part of Bobby Hull and Pavel Bure's game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I wonder how the not-so-fleet-of-foot Devils plan to handle the speed of my team.
Only the Swamp Devils first line is slow at foot, and like before, they will be playing almost exclusively with the Coffey-White defensive pair.

The Swamp Devils have some real speed demons in the lineup - Paul Coffey, Ilya Kovalchuk, Tony Leswick, and Rejean Houle all are/were among the fastest players of their eras, and Bill Thoms seems to have been quite fast too. Novy and Alfredsson are certainly faster than average, and there were some good things written about Mosdell's speed too.

I still haven't seen any evidence that any member of the Swamp Devils' starting D is slow. Gary Bergman is likely the slowest, and he still didn't get blown away by the speedy Soviets in 1972. (Dailey is slow, but he's very unlikely to see action this series, as none of my top 6 defensemen are injury-prone).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 04:26 AM
  #9
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,512
vCash: 500
I wouldn't call your D outright slow, but outside of Coffey there's no one who can even dream of keeping up with Hull/Bure/Fedorov/Fleury. Once any of them get a step on your D, it's lambs to the slaughter.

As for line matching, Hartford will try to have its first line out there against your first line whenever possible, to totally skate circles around it.

And as for Hull being 'the only true 1st liner' on my team... say what? Fedorov is more of a first line player, especially in the circumstances, than Abel. And Bure is right there with Abel too.

I'll try to find some time tomorrow or on Monday for full arguments, for the weekend is long and full of hockey.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:37 AM
  #10
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,961
vCash: 500
I have to say that I love this series too. Two strong teams so come on more action! Im not satisfied yet

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 11:46 AM
  #11
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,634
vCash: 8400
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I wouldn't call your D outright slow, but outside of Coffey there's no one who can even dream of keeping up with Hull/Bure/Fedorov/Fleury. Once any of them get a step on your D, it's lambs to the slaughter.
I don't understand this. We're talking about the best defensemen ever to play hockey here. Do you think your team speed is something that is so revolutionary and so much faster that they've never seen before? There were plenty of fast players when they played in the NHL. You have good speed in your top 6, but it's hardly going to be "lambs to the slaughter" like you insist.

Quote:
And as for Hull being 'the only true 1st liner' on my team... say what? Fedorov is more of a first line player, especially in the circumstances, than Abel. And Bure is right there with Abel too.
Abel is easily a better first liner than Fedorov is, especially when you consider Abel's playing at the weakest forward position for depth, and Fedorov at the best for depth.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 01:41 PM
  #12
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I don't understand this. We're talking about the best defensemen ever to play hockey here. Do you think your team speed is something that is so revolutionary and so much faster that they've never seen before? There were plenty of fast players when they played in the NHL. You have good speed in your top 6, but it's hardly going to be "lambs to the slaughter" like you insist.
Agreed

Quote:
Abel is easily a better first liner than Fedorov is, especially when you consider Abel's playing at the weakest forward position for depth, and Fedorov at the best for depth.
Disagree, atleast not easily.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 04:28 PM
  #13
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,634
vCash: 8400
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I'm not sure people realize how bad Fedorov's offense is for a first line center. The guy broke the VsX threshold of 80 just twice in his entire career, and broke 70 just 8 times, with six of those being in the 70s. Sid Abel broke 90 four times.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 05:30 PM
  #14
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,512
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I don't understand this. We're talking about the best defensemen ever to play hockey here. Do you think your team speed is something that is so revolutionary and so much faster that they've never seen before? There were plenty of fast players when they played in the NHL. You have good speed in your top 6, but it's hardly going to be "lambs to the slaughter" like you insist.
So speed doesn't matter? A Derian Hatcher type will handle Bobby Hull no problem? That's just absurd troll logic that implies that no defense and goalie drafted will have any problems with any forwards...

Quote:
Abel is easily a better first liner than Fedorov is, especially when you consider Abel's playing at the weakest forward position for depth, and Fedorov at the best for depth.
Abel was a center for his 8 best seasons. His best LW season is 9th overall among his seasons. And guess where he's stuck in here?

Not to mention that his offensive output needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt, considering his linemates.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 05:54 PM
  #15
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,796
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I don't understand this. We're talking about the best defensemen ever to play hockey here. Do you think your team speed is something that is so revolutionary and so much faster that they've never seen before? There were plenty of fast players when they played in the NHL. You have good speed in your top 6, but it's hardly going to be "lambs to the slaughter" like you insist.
You don't understand that fast players can cause problems for slow players?

Sure, a lot of those guys did learn how to survive against faster players, but that doesn't mean it was not a problem for them. Look at Chara as a modern example. He's not very mobile, and while he can often handle speedy forwards, that is still the way to beat him, and it works when used properly.

Moreover, you are correct that this is a best of the best. That means guys like White, Johnson, and Bergman are just support guys. Bobby Hull is absolutely elite. It's like Alexander Ovechkin vs. Rob Scuderi, Nick Schultz, and Luke Schenn.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 05-04-2013 at 06:03 PM.
Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 05:57 PM
  #16
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'm not sure people realize how bad Fedorov's offense is for a first line center. The guy broke the VsX threshold of 80 just twice in his entire career, and broke 70 just 8 times, with six of those being in the 70s. Sid Abel broke 90 four times.
The thing with Fedorov is that he was elite defensively in addition to whatever offense he provides. Sid Abel is significantly better than Fedorov as a guy who can help lead an ATD offense, which is normally what you want from your first liners, especially centers

I see Fedorov as a very good second line two-way center or someone who can play on the first line as something of a "glue guy" as long as he's not counted on to help carry the offense. And that's how Hartford is using him and I think it's a great fit. But no, I don't think Fedorov is particularly close to deserving special attention from the opposing team's checkers at the ATD level.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:18 PM
  #17
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I wouldn't call your D outright slow, but outside of Coffey there's no one who can even dream of keeping up with Hull/Bure/Fedorov/Fleury. Once any of them get a step on your D, it's lambs to the slaughter.
So Coffey is the best defensive player on the Swamp Devils because he is the fastest defenseman? The logic is awful.

I repeat again:
  • Bill White was awesome defensively in the Summit Series against a team much faster than any team in the NHL.
  • Gary Bergman was at least decent in the Summit Series against that same team.
  • Tom Johnson won a Norris in 1955-56 and was known as one of the best defensive defensemen of his era.
  • I don't know much about Doug Young or Lloyd Cook's speed specifically, but Young has a couple of quotes in his profile calling him "dashing" or praising his "lightning strikes" which doesn't really suggest a slug. And there is a single-game quote about Cook "skating like a demon" in his profile. Again, not enough to call him fast, but do you really see a player who was slow "skating like a demon" for even one game?

Seriously, do you have any evidence that a single member of the Swamp Devils defense is slower than average or that he ever struggled with speed?

Quote:
As for line matching, Hartford will try to have its first line out there against your first line whenever possible, to totally skate circles around it.
Interesting. Since NJ's first line will mostly take offensive zone draws, that means your're putting your first line out there for mostly defensive zone ones. Sergei Fedorov was good at faceoffs, but Phil Esposito is great, and given the grinding nature of NJ's first line, supported by the puck skills of Paul Coffey, I can see your first line spending their entire shift in their own zone from time to time. Either way, if that's the matchup you want, I can see the Abel-Esposito-Houle line being using more often, with Houle's continued shadowing of Bobby Hull.

Quote:
And as for Hull being 'the only true 1st liner' on my team... say what? Fedorov is more of a first line player, especially in the circumstances, than Abel. And Bure is right there with Abel too.
These are the 7 year vsX numbers of any member of both teams who scored over 75:

Phil Esposito: 123.4 NJ inflated by Orr, but how much?
Bobby Hull: 107.1 HART
Sid Abel 87.8 NJ
Paul Coffey 87.7 NJ
Pavel Bure: 86.0 HART
Ilya Kovalchuk 84.3 NJ
Daniel Alfredsson 82.6 NJ
Theo Fleury 82.3 HART
Sergei Fedorov 81.0 HART
Keith Tkachuk 79.5 HART
Pavel Datsyuk 78.9 HART

Novy ????? NJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
So speed doesn't matter? A Derian Hatcher type will handle Bobby Hull no problem? That's just absurd troll logic that implies that no defense and goalie drafted will have any problems with any forwards...
Or maybe it's troll logic to bring up Derian Hatcher, when none of the Swamp Devils defensemen was a notorious slow skater.

Quote:
Abel was a center for his 8 best seasons. His best LW season is 9th overall among his seasons. And guess where he's stuck in here?
Are you just making things up now?

I already went over this in the lineup assasination thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
1939, 1940: Part time player, adds nothing to his value, but likely played LW
1941, 1942, 1943: strictly LW, 2nd Team AS in 1942, 1 point away from leading the playoffs in scoring in 1943, Cup in 1943
1944, 1945, 1946: missed due to World War 2 (playing 6 of 60 games in 1946 is basically missing it)
1947: began the season at LW, likely switched to C by the end, but the Production Line was not put together until sometime during the following season
1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952: full time C, 2 1st Team AS, 1 2nd Team AS, 1 Hart Trophy, 2 Cups
1953: traded to Chicago, in steep decline so it adds nothing to his value,
Abel with 5th in scoring as a LW in 1941-42. If that's his 9th best season, he must have been a really great player!

In 1943, he played well enough in the playoffs that THN gave him their Retro Conn Smythe in their own retro Conn Smythe project (this was posted recently on the history board). It was one of a minority of years where THN differed from the SIHR/HHOF project we know better (that awarded the Retro Smythe to Jack Stewart).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-04-2013 at 06:29 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:19 PM
  #18
Hobnobs
Pinko
 
Hobnobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You don't understand that fast players can cause problems for slow players?

Sure, a lot of those guys did learn how to survive against faster players, but that doesn't mean it was not a problem for them. Look at Chara as a modern example. He's not very mobile, and while he can often handle speedy forwards, that is still the way to beat him, and it works when used properly.

Moreover, you are correct that this is a best of the best. That means guys like White, Johnson, and Bergman are just support guys. Bobby Hull is absolutely elite. It's like Alexander Ovechkin vs. Rob Scuderi, Nick Schultz, and Luke Schenn.
I think what he meant, atleast how I saw it was that speed isnt the only thing defensemen use to counter speedy players. Positioning is usually what makes or breaks defense.

Hobnobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:20 PM
  #19
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You don't understand that fast players can cause problems for slow players?

Sure, a lot of those guys did learn how to survive against faster players, but that doesn't mean it was not a problem for them. Look at Chara as a modern example. He's not very mobile, and while he can often handle speedy forwards, that is still the way to beat him, and it works when used properly.

Moreover, you are correct that this is a best of the best. That means guys like White, Johnson, and Bergman are just support guys. Bobby Hull is absolutely elite. It's like Alexander Ovechkin vs. Rob Scuderi, Nick Schultz, and Luke Schenn.
This would actually be relevant if anyone on the Swamp Devils was as slow as Chara. Instead, we have Bill White, who was quite fast for a stay-at-home guy.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:23 PM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I think what he meant, atleast how I saw it was that speed isnt the only thing defensemen use to counter speedy players. Positioning is usually what makes or breaks defense.
Exactly. A huge speed imbalance can cause problems in one-on-one situations off the rush, but positioning is more important. Scott Stevens was better defensively than Scott Niedermayer against big players, against fast players, against everyone, despite not having Niedermayer's speed.

And with Bobby Hull being shadowed (by a guy who was incredibly fast), the point is that he'll never be one-on-one with a defenseman in open ice.

And again, NJ's defense is, at worst, average in footspeed for the ATD, with not a single starter lacking at least some kind of skating ability.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:36 PM
  #21
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,796
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This would actually be relevant if anyone on the Swamp Devils was as slow as Chara. Instead, we have Bill White, who was quite fast for a stay-at-home guy.
Chara's not really slow, but he's not fast either. Probably slightly above average straight-ahead speed, and below average quickness.

I don't know where you're getting the info on Bill White being fast. He was, maybe, slightly above average speed for his era.

Quotes like "he was surprisingly fast for his size" don't mean he was fast. They mean he was faster than other big guys who were generally slow.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:39 PM
  #22
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,796
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I think what he meant, atleast how I saw it was that speed isnt the only thing defensemen use to counter speedy players. Positioning is usually what makes or breaks defense.
I've used this analogy before, and I realize it's exaggerated, but it still proves my point.

Let's go to a soccer field. I'll get on a dirt bike, you stay on foot, and we'll see if you can use positioning to stop me from getting to your net.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:45 PM
  #23
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,512
vCash: 500
I love those wishful thinkings being transmuted into absolutes.

'NJ's first line will mostly take offensive zone draws'
'I can see your first line spending their entire shift in their own zone from time to time'
'he'll never be one-on-one with a defenseman in open ice'

Absurd way of argumentation.

Abel is listed as C in 1941-42 in HR.

And all I said about the speed was that if basically any of my forwards gets a step ahead of your defense, the D's never gonna catch up, and thus every partial breakaway basically equals a penalty shot, considering the speed disparity.

And not being slow in a vacuum doesn't matter, it's the gap in speed between my forwards and your D that does.

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:49 PM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Chara's not really slow, but he's not fast either. Probably slightly above average straight-ahead speed, and below average quickness.

I don't know where you're getting the info on Bill White being fast. He was, maybe, slightly above average speed for his era.

Quotes like "he was surprisingly fast for his size" don't mean he was fast. They mean he was faster than other big guys who were generally slow.
I'll repeat myself yet again:

1) During his relatively brief peak, Bill White was considered the best defensive defenseman in the NHL by a wide margin. The NHL did have fast forwards in it at the time.

2) Bill White and Serge Savard were the two defensive standouts for either team in the Summit Series (Brad Park stood out for his rushing and two-way game but didn't appear to stand up quite so well strictly defensively). The 1972 Summit Series Soviet team is one of the fastest teams of all time, and Bill White looked quite good there there.

Here are three quotes from books that are in White's profile:

Quote:
and with his reach, size, and skating style, he seemed to be in several places at once. Understandably he was a coach's dream, and in the realm of defensemen he was simply an outstanding example of how to play the game most efficiently and effectively.
Quote:
Bill White was often described as the league's best defensive defenseman during his career, possessing defensive skills that were nearly flawless.
Quote:
played a steady, cautious game with few errors, relying on his lengthy reach and surprisingly mobile skating ability
And here's LOH:
Quote:
He played a steady, cautious game with few errors, relying on his lengthy reach and surprisingly mobile skating ability
White had a relatively short prime, and didn't provide much offense. But in his prime, he was about as well-rounded a defensive player as there ever was.

White's reach was absolutely elite (and there are quotes in his profile as to this effect), and that can really help cover the ice surface.

I'm not sure I understand your position here. You seem to be of the opinion that stay-at-home defensemen will struggle against fast forwards because they are stay-at-home defensemen. And that's just bizarre.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-04-2013, 06:58 PM
  #25
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I love those wishful thinkings being transmuted into absolutes.

'NJ's first line will mostly take offensive zone draws'
Henrik Sedin takes mostly offensive zone draws today. If that's how a coach want's to manage his team's ice time, it's easy. Matchups can be tough to get. Giving your top line mostly offensive zone draws is something even an idiot can do.

Quote:
'I can see your first line spending their entire shift in their own zone from time to time
'
Strength along the boards isn't exactly a strength of your first line. Your line beats my first line is speed but mine beats your in strength along the boards.

Quote:
'he'll never be one-on-one with a defenseman in open ice'
Do you understand how shadowing works? When Bobby Hull is on the ice, Houle will be all over him. Houle basically takes himself out of the game from an offensive standput by rarely leaving his check even when his own team has the puck.

Quote:
Abel is listed as C in 1941-42 in HR.
Sid Abel was a 2nd Team All Star at LW in 1941-42. H-R is a terrible source for player positions.

Quote:
And all I said about the speed was that if basically any of my forwards gets a step ahead of your defense, the D's never gonna catch up, and thus every partial breakaway basically equals a penalty shot, considering the speed disparity.

And not being slow in a vacuum doesn't matter, it's the gap in speed between my forwards and your D that does.
You're right that Bill White and Tom Johnson won't catch Bobby Hull or Sergei Fedorov in a foot race. But how often do you actually think a foot race will happen? These guys weren't among the best defensive defensemen of their eras by letting fast forwards get behind them.

And Bobby Hull is being shadowed by a player who can keep up with him.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:10 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.