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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

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Old
05-05-2013, 01:58 AM
  #51
Nac Mac Feegle
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Oooh, ooh, ooh! Let me guess the end of that sentence! Kind of makes you wonder... how two people manage to stay such much more rational than all the anti-torts posters on these boards. Or kind of makes you wonder... how two people managed to escape the meme that a hockey coach actually forces his team not to try to score goals, I guess they're just better than most people. Or kind of makes you wonder... why these two guys bother explaining basic hockey to the people of these boards who by now surely have proven themselves to be too dense and too caught up in video game/movie fantasy land to get real pro NHL hockey.

Nailed it.
Rational isn't the first word that comes to mind when reading that post. I'm pretty sure most of the posters on this board who are 'beneath you' understand pro hockey quite well, thanks. There are some problems with the coaching of this team (and no, not all problems are the result of coaching) that fans around the league, along with hockey experts around the NHL have commented on already this season.



I will give Haveandare a lot of credit. He is very even-keeled and is loathe to throw anyone in the organization under the bus. He appears to have a good deal of patience and can see the big picture quite well.

It's pretty obvious the problems on this team are not from one source. It is a multi-headed monster. No one in the organization should escape blame.

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05-05-2013, 01:59 AM
  #52
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You don't have as much ambiguity with throwing the puck out as you do when a goalie has supposed equipment problems, and even then, it's up to the ref to call it a penalty or not, just like it is with breaking a stick intentionally.

And honestly, this sounds like crying over spilled milk. When Washington does it..twice, it should be called a penalty, but when the Rangers do it, the rule is stupid.

I like it, keep it, and in McDonagh's case, he stood there a good 3-4 seconds surveying the ice when he did that brainfart.
I think it's a stupid rule for both sides. I don't think a game should be decided on an innocent mistake. Yes in the past it was done purposely. I like the suggestion by Zenith it to make it like the icing rule. No TV timeout and players remain on the ice. You shouldn't get a man advantage for it.

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05-05-2013, 02:01 AM
  #53
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I think it's a stupid rule for both sides. I don't think a game should be decided on an innocent mistake. Yes in the past it was done purposely. I like the suggestion by Zenith it to make it like the icing rule. No TV timeout and players remain on the ice. You shouldn't get a man advantage for it.
A lot of penalties are due to innocent mistakes; you think a majority of sticks to the face or trips are done intentionally?

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05-05-2013, 02:10 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Oooh, ooh, ooh! Let me guess the end of that sentence! Kind of makes you wonder... how two people manage to stay such much more rational than all the anti-torts posters on these boards. Or kind of makes you wonder... how two people managed to escape the meme that a hockey coach actually forces his team not to try to score goals, I guess they're just better than most people. Or kind of makes you wonder... why these two guys bother explaining basic hockey to the people of these boards who by now surely have proven themselves to be too dense and too caught up in video game/movie fantasy land to get real pro NHL hockey.

Nailed it.
This is classic Kel. You sound like a child. Did you play pro hockey? Did you coach? Just because you say something doesn't make it true. And just because you are going up against the entire board on the coaching issue doesn't mean people here get their hockey knowledge from video games. That's comical.

I love even more how you call it "rationality" on your part because what you say is law here. I have never once read a post where you agreed Torts was wrong in a decision he made. He is always right. He is never the problem. It is always the 23 other guys on the roster.

And keep putting words in our mouth. I certainly have not stated Torts is forcing his team not to score. No sorry Kel, what we have argued is his system, which is a defensively minded collapsing system that sacrifices the offense side of the game. As great as it is to be defensive, you need to score more goals than the other team to win hockey games. This team can't do that within his system. I don't hate Torts. He has good qualities. But he has flaws to how he coaches. The transition game is non existent, the PP has been bad over multiple seasons with the same reoccurring issues, constant line changes, he shows no offensive creativity, etc. And the reason for it is he is not an adaptable coach. He is stubborn. He refuses to adapt and alter his system to the adversities he comes across. He refuses to adapt to new personnel but rather he wants them to adapt to the system or else they get pushed out or diminished ice time. No you shouldn't cater to every player, but you should coach to a player's strengths. He certainly did not do that with Gaborik. He has not done that with Kreider. He doesn't do it with Boyle by putting him in positions to disappoint when he can flourish in a particular role. The list goes on.

Sorry no one is allowed to criticize Tortorella.

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05-05-2013, 02:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
A lot of penalties are due to innocent mistakes; you think a majority of sticks to the face or trips are done intentionally?
No, but c'mon you're reaching here. High sticking and tripping have been a part of the game for a long, long time. Those rules make sense. They are in place to reduce injury, to not impede players. Lifting a puck over the glass is entirely different imo.

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05-05-2013, 02:33 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Oooh, ooh, ooh! Let me guess the end of that sentence! Kind of makes you wonder... how two people manage to stay such much more rational than all the anti-torts posters on these boards. Or kind of makes you wonder... how two people managed to escape the meme that a hockey coach actually forces his team not to try to score goals, I guess they're just better than most people. Or kind of makes you wonder... why these two guys bother explaining basic hockey to the people of these boards who by now surely have proven themselves to be too dense and too caught up in video game/movie fantasy land to get real pro NHL hockey.

Nailed it.
Being dense is not always a bad thing you know. Never played an NHL video game myself, but it might be Amusing thing to do for a delusional person like myself to do. And being carefree and dense causes one to seek hollow pleasures - so maybe that is the solution to the problem. I did however play hockey on a quite high level myself, but that of course. Does not count. Playing on Kristianstads IKs team certainly adds to the pedigree though...

Seriously, you nailed a final nail in your own coffin. But that is not all. Your blind allegiance to John Tortorella shows that you either are him/somebody very close to him or are extremely... What was the word again?

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05-05-2013, 07:06 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Oooh, ooh, ooh! Let me guess the end of that sentence! Kind of makes you wonder... how two people manage to stay such much more rational than all the anti-torts posters on these boards. Or kind of makes you wonder... how two people managed to escape the meme that a hockey coach actually forces his team not to try to score goals, I guess they're just better than most people. Or kind of makes you wonder... why these two guys bother explaining basic hockey to the people of these boards who by now surely have proven themselves to be too dense and too caught up in video game/movie fantasy land to get real pro NHL hockey.

Nailed it.
I've figured it out...Kel is the anti Kershaw! Two polar opposites, keeping everything in balance.

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Old
05-05-2013, 08:06 AM
  #59
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No transition.
No offensive structure.
Defense collapses and is prone to getting pinned in their zone for shifts at a time.
That's basically failing in the offensive zone, neutral zone, and D zone. And we see the result.

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05-05-2013, 08:28 AM
  #60
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The guy who said the only bad thing he has to say about Torts is he shouldn't have gotten himself kicked out of a game in one of our billion Caps series is calling other people dense? I just don't even...

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05-05-2013, 08:37 AM
  #61
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I think torts lifespan as coach of the rangers should come to an end. His style is not working and he refuses to change it to reflect the type of players he has on the lineup. So although he had some success last season, I think expectation date for torts is soon.

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05-05-2013, 09:27 AM
  #62
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You guys dream, seriously. Even if the Rangers get swept and don't score another goal the rest of this series (which let's be honest, is totally possible ) Torts is going nowhere.

Management made it clear with the Gaborik trade. They chose Torts over Gaborik despite the Rangers struggles as a whole. Sather gave Tortorella a team built to his fitting once again. One superstar (Nash), a player who is turning into a superstar (Stepan), and a whole bunch of complementary depth players who can JAMJAMJAMJAM all night long.

As unfortunate as it is, I'd say Torts gets another 30-50 games next season to try and prove himself again as an NHL coach. If the Rangers have success, are looking good, and in the thick of things in the playoff race; Torts stays. If they're ****ting the bed again like they were for most of this season, then I'd suspect Torts is officially on the hot seat.

But to think he's going anywhere after this season, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

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05-05-2013, 09:44 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
You guys dream, seriously. Even if the Rangers get swept and don't score another goal the rest of this series (which let's be honest, is totally possible ) Torts is going nowhere.

Management made it clear with the Gaborik trade. They chose Torts over Gaborik despite the Rangers struggles as a whole. Sather gave Tortorella a team built to his fitting once again. One superstar (Nash), a player who is turning into a superstar (Stepan), and a whole bunch of complementary depth players who can JAMJAMJAMJAM all night long.

As unfortunate as it is, I'd say Torts gets another 30-50 games next season to try and prove himself again as an NHL coach. If the Rangers have success, are looking good, and in the thick of things in the playoff race; Torts stays. If they're ****ting the bed again like they were for most of this season, then I'd suspect Torts is officially on the hot seat.

But to think he's going anywhere after this season, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Unfortunately very true. And what's funny about these JAM players-Torts preaches JAM, and I haven't seen it all season long.

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05-05-2013, 09:48 AM
  #64
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Unfortunately very true. And what's funny about these JAM players-Torts preaches JAM, and I haven't seen it all season long.
It's because we need moar of it!

Bench Nash and Stepan, plug in Haley and Newbury. It's really the only way to go at this point.

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Old
05-05-2013, 09:49 AM
  #65
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It's because we need moar of it!

Bench Nash and Stepan, plug in Haley and Newbury. It's really the only way to go at this point.
Haley was on the second line in a third period this season.

Anything Can Happen!

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Old
05-05-2013, 09:49 AM
  #66
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Sather gave Tortorella a team built to his fitting once again. One superstar (Nash), a player who is turning into a superstar (Stepan), and a whole bunch of complementary depth players who can JAMJAMJAMJAM all night long.
Stepan and superstar dont belong in the same sentence and likely never will.

Not to mention his playoff career continues to be a trainwreck right up through these 2 games.

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05-05-2013, 09:57 AM
  #67
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Stepan and superstar dont belong in the same sentence and likely never will.

Not to mention his playoff career continues to be a trainwreck right up through these 2 games.
He's a 22 year old #1 C. I think it's okay to say Stepan has the ability to turn into a superstar. He was on pace for a 75 point season in 82 games this year, which by last years numbers would have had him in the top 20 of the NHL.

So maybe 'superstar' is a bit of an overstatement, but all the ability is there.

And you're right, his playoff performances have been underwhelming. But who hasn't underwhelmed you so far in the playoffs, this year or last? Looks like a coaching problem to me.

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05-05-2013, 09:58 AM
  #68
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Stepan and superstar dont belong in the same sentence and likely never will.

Not to mention his playoff career continues to be a trainwreck right up through these 2 games.
name one player who isnt hank who hasnt been a trainwreck in these 2 games

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05-05-2013, 09:59 AM
  #69
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He's a 22 year old #1 C. I think it's okay to say Stepan has the ability to turn into a superstar. He was on pace for a 75 point season in 82 games this year, which by last years numbers would have had him in the top 20 of the NHL.

So maybe 'superstar' is a bit of an overstatement, but all the ability is there.

And you're right, his playoff performances have been underwhelming. But who hasn't underwhelmed you so far in the playoffs, this year or last? Looks like a coaching problem to me.
Exactly this. The only person who meets expectations every year is Hank.

And he's not coached by John Tortorella.

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05-05-2013, 10:15 AM
  #70
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1) How is it the system when the talent has never been there?
2) How are you, how is he, supposed to win when you have minimal offense? Should he coach run and gun with this group?
you don't get more offense from run-and-gun sloppy play these days. you're thinking 1988. You develop offense by drilling it. Where to be, who your outlet's are. Tortorella has already said he doesn't coach offense at all. He doesn't believe in telling players how to generate offense. That's fine for teams with considerable amounts of talent, and that can free-roam and hedge forward to catch an odd-man break.

But have you ever seen a team with less odd-man rushes than the NYR? WHy? Because the heavy requirement to be on the "right side of the puck" defensively. Players are never moving east when the opponents are headed west to turn a simple turnover into an immediate scoring chance.

So you tell the players to be creative on their own offensively, but their defensive assignments are extremely restrictive, forcing them to always come up the ice against emplaced and set defenses. It's great to have such a high level of responsibility defensively, but the staff needs to come up with a way to generate offense from such a posture. Since the staff doesn't address that, the NYR play some of most tilted ice-surface games around the league.

Sure they're not giving up huge opportunities, but here's the never-ending recurring play from NYR securing possession in their zone.

chip the puck up to a winger who;s standing still. The winger chips the puck beyond the blue line. Far winger skates to begin a neutral zone forecheck.

The only time something other than that happens, is when opposing teams are changing. Watch during the next game, THE ONLY TIME the NYR come out of their zone with speed and real possession is when the other team is in the process of a change.

If you don't see the problem is systematic, you're not watching any NHL hockey aside from the NYR


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05-05-2013, 10:15 AM
  #71
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No, it's systemic. From the collapsing defense to the boards only neutral zone play, and the behind the net cycling BS in the offensive zone.
Can't it be both? The talent isn't capable and the system and coaching is not good enough to get them to produce more than their abysmal production currently.

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05-05-2013, 10:27 AM
  #72
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Can't it be both? The talent isn't capable and the system and coaching is not good enough to get them to produce more than their abysmal production currently.
So you're telling me that the Flames, Stars, Hurricanes, Islanders, Jets all have more talent and that is why they outscored us in G per G all season long? If you cut off the last month you could add Coyotes, Sabres, BLue Jackets, and Avs to that list as well.

The massively decimated Senators, with almost an AHL roster outscored us per game before the trade deadline.

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05-05-2013, 10:41 AM
  #73
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He's worn out his welcome.

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05-05-2013, 10:45 AM
  #74
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You guys dream, seriously. Even if the Rangers get swept and don't score another goal the rest of this series (which let's be honest, is totally possible ) Torts is going nowhere.

Management made it clear with the Gaborik trade. They chose Torts over Gaborik despite the Rangers struggles as a whole. Sather gave Tortorella a team built to his fitting once again. One superstar (Nash), a player who is turning into a superstar (Stepan), and a whole bunch of complementary depth players who can JAMJAMJAMJAM all night long.

As unfortunate as it is, I'd say Torts gets another 30-50 games next season to try and prove himself again as an NHL coach. If the Rangers have success, are looking good, and in the thick of things in the playoff race; Torts stays. If they're ****ting the bed again like they were for most of this season, then I'd suspect Torts is officially on the hot seat.

But to think he's going anywhere after this season, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.
Eh, I have heard some rumblings that the Rangers management isn't too happy with how Torts couldn't get anything working with Gaborik. Gaborik wasn't in the teams long term plans, so a trade was going to happen irregardless over the summer(cap issues).

But management is really irritated the Rangers couldn't get a run going with Gabs before he left. Not to mention, a 40 goal scoring Gaborik probably would have gotten us an even better package. Instead Sather had to trade a team that fit Torts style. A team that is still going to get bounced in the first round it seems.

I think its very possible this playoff is Torts last chance. There could be a major shakeup over the summer.

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05-05-2013, 10:48 AM
  #75
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He's a 22 year old #1 C. I think it's okay to say Stepan has the ability to turn into a superstar. He was on pace for a 75 point season in 82 games this year, which by last years numbers would have had him in the top 20 of the NHL.

So maybe 'superstar' is a bit of an overstatement, but all the ability is there.

And you're right, his playoff performances have been underwhelming. But who hasn't underwhelmed you so far in the playoffs, this year or last? Looks like a coaching problem to me.
Maybe I dont understand your point here because its such a horrible one with no logic. Let me see if Im following this right.

1. Derek Stepan had a wonderful season that is propelling him towards superstar status, but that has zilch to do with Tortorella

2. Stepan is struggling in the post-season, and that is 100% on Tortorella

Im just sick of the tunnel vision and the scapegoating when it comes to why this team is not performing. Theres several different reasons for it. But I guess its just so much easier to say "OMG this system sucks and the coach needs to be fired!!!"

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