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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

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Old
05-05-2013, 09:54 AM
  #76
Water1
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Eh, I have heard some rumblings that the Rangers management isn't too happy with how Torts couldn't get anything working with Gaborik. Gaborik wasn't in the teams long term plans, so a trade was going to happen irregardless over the summer(cap issues).

But management is really irritated the Rangers couldn't get a run going with Gabs before he left. Not to mention, a 40 goal scoring Gaborik probably would have gotten us an even better package. Instead Sather had to trade a team that fit Torts style. A team that is still going to get bounced in the first round it seems.

I think its very possible this playoff is Torts last chance. There could be a major shakeup over the summer.
Hopefully true
14-20 in playoffs
Last in goals scored for a majority of the season
His system stinks.
If you want to play this type system get rid of the smurfs other wise go to a more devil may care way of playing hockey

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Old
05-05-2013, 10:01 AM
  #77
Bob Richards
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He's worn out his welcome.
Guys like Torts seem to have shelf lives. I still think he's a good coach but his area of effectiveness is only potent for so long before it becomes real old and real stale and it may be time for him to go.

I've never been one to want Torts to shoulder all the blame as even though the team is talented, its also bafflingly stupid. The defense is a shell of its former self, the bottom 6 has the potency of a 90 year old man post stroke and we are masked by the best goalie in the world.

Despite all of that, it really doesn't help to add in an insufferably stubborn coach who's so rigid in his systematic ways that he'd rather play his game and lose than give in to criticism, be proven wrong, adapt and win. And yes, I firmly believe that last sentence. I truly think Torts is that much of a pretentious blowhard at times.

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05-05-2013, 10:04 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Eh, I have heard some rumblings that the Rangers management isn't too happy with how Torts couldn't get anything working with Gaborik. Gaborik wasn't in the teams long term plans, so a trade was going to happen irregardless over the summer(cap issues).

But management is really irritated the Rangers couldn't get a run going with Gabs before he left. Not to mention, a 40 goal scoring Gaborik probably would have gotten us an even better package. Instead Sather had to trade a team that fit Torts style. A team that is still going to get bounced in the first round it seems.

I think its very possible this playoff is Torts last chance. There could be a major shakeup over the summer.
I can't imagine they're happy, but I think management is bought into Tortorella for now. That could change very quickly come the start of next season though.

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Maybe I dont understand your point here because its such a horrible one with no logic. Let me see if Im following this right.

1. Derek Stepan had a wonderful season that is propelling him towards superstar status, but that has zilch to do with Tortorella

2. Stepan is struggling in the post-season, and that is 100% on Tortorella

Im just sick of the tunnel vision and the scapegoating when it comes to why this team is not performing. Theres several different reasons for it. But I guess its just so much easier to say "OMG this system sucks and the coach needs to be fired!!!"
Yes, such a horrible point with no logic. I shall go inform my mother what a terrible job she did raising me.

Can't find it in my post where I said Stepan's progression has had nothing to do with Tortorella. Step's offensive game and IQ were always there, but Torts has certainly helped his defensive game. I'd suggest however, under any coach, that Stepan would have progressed at this same pace just because of the player he is. Yet, that is hypothetical and absolutely pointless. We shall never know.

Stepan is struggling, correct. If it was JUST Stepan who was struggling, it'd be easy to write him off as maybe not such a big game player (but his history at the WJC and college prove otherwise). Yet, when the Rangers under Tortorella get to the playoffs, they can't do **** offensively. The whole team. Not just Stepan. They're averaging .47 goals per game right now. Last year in 20 playoff games they scored 44 goals. So, 45 goals in the last 22 playoff games under Torts. That screams coaching to me.

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Old
05-05-2013, 11:06 AM
  #79
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Teams that possess the puck and play puck possession games win in the long run.

That was the Russian philosophy and I think it till is.i hate how this team just gives the puck up to fall back on defense.
Yes, it was and is. That's why the USSR was so dominant. It's also slowly making its way into North American hockey ever since the first lockout which lowered obstruction. You can't grab onto people with the puck anymore.

Tortorella won his cup before that lockout. He won't win another one unless he learns to adjust, and mark my words, he's not going to do that.

Also, regarding Stepan's struggles: first off, it's been two games and the entire team has scored a grand total of ONE goal, which was generated by his line. He has played well and had a number of grade A chances. Probably the best player on our team so far these playoffs sans Lundqvist (obviously) and maybe Hagelin based on his first game where he was all over the ice. Stepan is still 22. Yzerman wasn't considered a great playoff performer until he was what, 28?

He will be fine. He will flourish if we ever get a coach that opens up the offense a little bit more. Tortorella gets and deserves plenty of credit for developing Stepans defensive game, but I'm not sure he can take much when it comes to what Steps offensive game is and what it will be.

Edit: oh and on the DoG rule, it is what it is, a rule. Should be what it is in some junior a hockey in the states, it's treated as an icing, no line changes, but no penalties. It functions exactly how it should.


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05-05-2013, 11:07 AM
  #80
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So you're telling me that the Flames, Stars, Hurricanes, Islanders, Jets all have more talent and that is why they outscored us in G per G all season long? If you cut off the last month you could add Coyotes, Sabres, BLue Jackets, and Avs to that list as well.

The massively decimated Senators, with almost an AHL roster outscored us per game before the trade deadline.
No...seriously what?...I said can't it be both meaning talent and coach combined to make one giant sh** soup of offensive incompetence

I don't understand your comment unless you thought I was saying it's talent issues alone which I wasn't even close to saying that. Not to mention there's D talent, G talent and O talent. Our overall talent is prob better than many teams b/c of our D talent and G talent but our O talent has been abysmal based on actual performance this year

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05-05-2013, 11:08 AM
  #81
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keep thinking it's a coaching issue, the same was thought when renney was on his last legs here. the core of this team is very overrated.

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05-05-2013, 11:12 AM
  #82
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Do people actually think that puck possession isn't the main goal of EVERY coach and every NHL team? Execution is a different notion entirely.

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05-05-2013, 11:14 AM
  #83
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Ovie was thought to be on his last legs in the beginning of the year. Lost of fans said they would not want him. Adam Oates opens the game up for him and the Caps and boom Ovie is a dominant player again. Even some of the players in the paper said maybe they were playing too cautiously.

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05-05-2013, 11:14 AM
  #84
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Guys like Torts seem to have shelf lives. I still think he's a good coach but his area of effectiveness is only potent for so long before it becomes real old and real stale and it may be time for him to go.

I've never been one to want Torts to shoulder all the blame as even though the team is talented, its also bafflingly stupid. The defense is a shell of its former self, the bottom 6 has the potency of a 90 year old man post stroke and we are masked by the best goalie in the world.

Despite all of that, it really doesn't help to add in an insufferably stubborn coach who's so rigid in his systematic ways that he'd rather play his game and lose than give in to criticism, be proven wrong, adapt and win. And yes, I firmly believe that last sentence. I truly think Torts is that much of a pretentious blowhard at times.

Do you know of any coaches that are super versatile? If I take coaches that I believe are better than Torts: Trotz, Babcock, Tippett, Quenneville and Julien, all of them have proven to be either unwilling to change their systems or perhaps even worse, unable to.

I mean, it is their whole vision of hockey that is at stake and they've fairly sucessfull with it, and last's years has proven to be quite effective and I didn't hate what I saw. I'm sure Torts didn't either, asking him to change his whole vision after a strange half season is kinda ridiculous. It is akin to asking a film director to change his whole style, influences and sensibility in the midst of a shooting, it just won't happen.

Not saying Torts is without faults, he blew the game yesterday by mismanadging one of his best asset (McDonagh) and he knows it.

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05-05-2013, 11:19 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Do people actually think that puck possession isn't the main goal of EVERY coach and every NHL team? Execution is a different notion entirely.
Of course that's the main goal, but there's different ways to possess the puck. I'm not talking about the dump it in and grinding down low with the puck with our forwards.

We have talented defensemen with puck possession skills sans Girardi. Let our D hold on to the puck and make plays. Don't make our primary strategy off the glass or rim the puck around the boards and out. Don't dump the puck in. (Obviously there are exceptions) hold on to the puck and put it into soft areas where it's not a 50/50 puck, but rather a 70/30 puck. Use our forwards high in the offensive zone. It's a lot tougher to defend against forwards stretching out the zone than 3 forwards grinding it out low. Move the puck quick and get open. That should be the idea. Not put it in a corner, chase it and hope their d makes a mistake.

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05-05-2013, 11:23 AM
  #86
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People really think we should be one of them puck possession teams but that means giving the keys of our offense to del Zotto. I like the kid but I'd rather go with our main strenghts.

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05-05-2013, 11:26 AM
  #87
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Of course that's the main goal, but there's different ways to possess the puck. I'm not talking about the dump it in and grinding down low with the puck with our forwards.

We have talented defensemen with puck possession skills sans Girardi. Let our D hold on to the puck and make plays. Don't make our primary strategy off the glass or rim the puck around the boards and out. Don't dump the puck in. (Obviously there are exceptions) hold on to the puck and put it into soft areas where it's not a 50/50 puck, but rather a 70/30 puck. Use our forwards high in the offensive zone. It's a lot tougher to defend against forwards stretching out the zone than 3 forwards grinding it out low. Move the puck quick and get open. That should be the idea. Not put it in a corner, chase it and hope their d makes a mistake.
Im entirely against an idea that would make this team more susceptible to neutral zone mistakes. They do a fine job of that already in this sheltered system that is designed to avoid it.

Not to mention, out of the 18 roster players that dress on any given night, only a very small handful have the speed and talent to make creative plays in the neutral zone.

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Old
05-05-2013, 11:29 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Maaxse View Post
Do you know of any coaches that are super versatile? If I take coaches that I believe are better than Torts: Trotz, Babcock, Tippett, Quenneville and Julien, all of them have proven to be either unwilling to change their systems or perhaps even worse, unable to.

I mean, it is their whole vision of hockey that is at stake and they've fairly sucessfull with it, and last's years has proven to be quite effective and I didn't hate what I saw. I'm sure Torts didn't either, asking him to change his whole vision after a strange half season is kinda ridiculous. It is akin to asking a film director to change his whole style, influences and sensibility in the midst of a shooting, it just won't happen.

Not saying Torts is without faults, he blew the game yesterday by mismanadging one of his best asset (McDonagh) and he knows it.
It's not so much a complete upheaval of his system as it is not implementing the same, inane tactics that continuously fail again and again. Start small. Stop changing the lines every two shifts, take Girardi off the PP etc.

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05-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #89
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i realize we overachieved a bit last year but overall they played a tighter game. Sure it's an excuse, but the shortened season didn't do us any favors. They've never looked comfortable on the ice from day one. I remember that Tortorella stated in the media that "this is not our year", or words to that effect. I'm not sure what it was, but they've played defeated for quite some time now.

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05-05-2013, 11:37 AM
  #90
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John Torterella is a offensive genius who will find ways to open up the Rangers offense to take advantage of their offensive talent is a statement made by nobody in 2013.

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05-05-2013, 11:43 AM
  #91
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Im entirely against an idea that would make this team more susceptible to neutral zone mistakes. They do a fine job of that already in this sheltered system that is designed to avoid it.

Not to mention, out of the 18 roster players that dress on any given night, only a very small handful have the speed and talent to make creative plays in the neutral zone.
We have the best goalie in the league in Lundqvist to back us up not to mention we still manage to give up multiple odd man rushes a game even with this "sheltered system"

Being afraid to make mistakes is what leads to 1 goal in 7 periods of play. We need to attack as a unit of 5 and use our D in our transition game, not have our forwards get the puck and try to fly by their D without offensive support. We're not fast enough. Our talent is in our defense, and believe it or not, we do have some very heady players in Stepan, Richards, Brassard and Zuccarello.

If we spread out our forwards in the offensive zone we would have LESS odd man rushes against because we'd have a 3rd guy high rather than all 3 guys behind their 3 forwards below the hash marks. This would take pressure off our defense when it comes to handling rushes.

It would also take pressure off our forwards because they would have more space to make moves down low, and we would stretch out their defensive coverage. If they decide to pick up that 3rd forward with their winger, then we use our D at the point.

Like it or not, the NHL is changing to a puck possession game involving all 5 players. Not a one dimensional offensive or defensive system.

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05-05-2013, 11:46 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Do people actually think that puck possession isn't the main goal of EVERY coach and every NHL team? Execution is a different notion entirely.
Yes but Tortorella is more about shot blocking and defense overall.

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05-05-2013, 11:51 AM
  #93
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It's not so much a complete upheaval of his system as it is not implementing the same, inane tactics that continuously fail again and again. Start small. Stop changing the lines every two shifts, take Girardi off the PP etc.
I agree for Girardi. However, if Stepan and Richards were cycling a little faster/smarter then having this tall guy able to get all the outgoing pucks at the blueline and play them simple actually makes sense. However, the whole thing should be reviewed and it starts with more mouvement and Giradi doesn't provide any (not his kind of play).

Honestly, except for our PP I thought we played well in Game 2.

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05-05-2013, 12:12 PM
  #94
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What is the average shelf life of coaches?

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05-05-2013, 12:15 PM
  #95
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I really think Tipett would be a good fit for the Rangers but we all know Torts isn't going anywhere even if they get swept

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05-05-2013, 12:19 PM
  #96
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You cant go too far in this type of system. last year i believe we played a little over our heads. also hank had a tremendous year and always kept us in games. Lets face it in the playoffs last year we wouldnt have gotten past ottawa without hank and kreider coming up. Ironically Dale Hunter takes the Caps past Boston and takes us to 7 games and gets fire while torts can only get us past the first round once and his job is safe lol

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05-05-2013, 12:20 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
John Torterella is a offensive genius who will find ways to open up the Rangers offense to take advantage of their offensive talent is a statement made by nobody in 2013.
No, its was a statement made by too many people in 2009.

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05-05-2013, 12:22 PM
  #98
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The Rangers 5 on 5 have been the better team in this series, and to be frank, for most of the season theyve out played their oposition 5 on 5.

That's our system

AND IT WORKS.

Our problem has been our PP.

Difference between this year and last year?

Last year we had an elite PK, this year, not so much.

That's the difference between Being in first place and being in 6th place with a HORRENDOUS PP.

Fix the PP, fix everything imho.
it works at what exactly? are you serious? we're terrible in the neutral zone, terrible in the offensive zone and we get pinned in our own zone for long periods of time and the only reason the other team doesn't make us pay most of the time is because of hank. all we do is rely on hank to bail us out and pray we score a goal. hardly a good system.

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05-05-2013, 12:25 PM
  #99
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You cant go too far in this type of system. last year i believe we played a little over our heads. also hank had a tremendous year and always kept us in games. Lets face it in the playoffs last year we wouldnt have gotten past ottawa without hank and kreider coming up. Ironically Dale Hunter takes the Caps past Boston and takes us to 7 games and gets fire while torts can only get us past the first round once and his job is safe lol
hunter didn't get fired. he just filled in for the caps as a favor. after the season he decided to return to the OHL.

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05-05-2013, 12:42 PM
  #100
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hunter didn't get fired. he just filled in for the caps as a favor. after the season he decided to return to the OHL.
My mistake you are right but i heard Ovechkin didnt really want him around because he didnt like that style

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