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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

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Old
05-05-2013, 01:39 PM
  #101
ImIdaho
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
No, but c'mon you're reaching here. High sticking and tripping have been a part of the game for a long, long time. Those rules make sense. They are in place to reduce injury, to not impede players. Lifting a puck over the glass is entirely different imo.
How am I reaching? A lot of penalties are done unintentionally, which really should have no bearing on someone who lifts the puck over the glass. You still can get away with it if it defects off another stick or at least touches the glass.

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05-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #102
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rangers compete level is nowhere near where they should be or can be.. i dont see the effort up and down the lineup I did from last yrs team.. watching the islanders-pitt game makes me mad.. bc pitt thinks they can just show up and beat them but Islanders are skating harder and raising there game and pushing pitt around.. If rangers had that same desire i think we'd be up 2-0 easy.. our 1c who was brought here to dominate our PP and look at it we're like 0-10, unacceptable..

rangers effort should be balls to the walls and its not even close to that.. noones stepping up its a disgrace, bc washington is a beatable team and we're not skating hard enough!!!! boys better be fired up for the garden or they are a complete disgrace! honestly us fans dont deserve this.. put people through the glass, crash the net, SHOOOTTT the damn puck and hit everything that moves.. its a simple game.. i just dont get it..

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05-05-2013, 01:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
rangers compete level is nowhere near where they should be or can be.. i dont see the effort up and down the lineup I did from last yrs team.. watching the islanders-pitt game makes me mad.. bc pitt thinks they can just show up and beat them but Islanders are skating harder and raising there game and pushing pitt around.. If rangers had that same desire i think we'd be up 2-0 easy.. our 1c who was brought here to dominate our PP and look at it we're like 0-10, unacceptable..

rangers effort should be balls to the walls and its not even close to that.. noones stepping up its a disgrace, bc washington is a beatable team and we're not skating hard enough!!!! boys better be fired up for the garden or they are a complete disgrace! honestly us fans dont deserve this.. put people through the glass, crash the net, SHOOOTTT the damn puck and hit everything that moves.. its a simple game.. i just dont get it..
I feel the same way.

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05-05-2013, 01:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
rangers compete level is nowhere near where they should be or can be.. i dont see the effort up and down the lineup I did from last yrs team.. watching the islanders-pitt game makes me mad.. bc pitt thinks they can just show up and beat them but Islanders are skating harder and raising there game and pushing pitt around.. If rangers had that same desire i think we'd be up 2-0 easy.. our 1c who was brought here to dominate our PP and look at it we're like 0-10, unacceptable..

rangers effort should be balls to the walls and its not even close to that.. noones stepping up its a disgrace, bc washington is a beatable team and we're not skating hard enough!!!! boys better be fired up for the garden or they are a complete disgrace! honestly us fans dont deserve this.. put people through the glass, crash the net, SHOOOTTT the damn puck and hit everything that moves.. its a simple game.. i just dont get it..
I fully agree. I'm watching that game now, and they just play so much harder, so much faster, they have that extra step, that extra fire and tenacity..

NYR is not lacking in talent... they are lacking in drive. There is no motivation to win anymore...

I'm sorry, but after a season like last year, I think you HAVE to play this one on management. There is no way 5 lost players brings down the other 15... The environment is created by A) the Captain and B) The coach, and C) The Front Office/Management...

Simple as that

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05-05-2013, 02:07 PM
  #105
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I love how many are in complete denial blaming this solely on the lack of skill on the roster.

I just listened to Torts post practise presser. He HIMSELF said that our neutral zone play had been GOOD. Nothing wrong with our transition game.

And of course he says it. It's our game plan to just bang the puck out of our own end.

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05-05-2013, 02:42 PM
  #106
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Watch the Blackhawks and the wild. Watch how their defense has patience with the puck and make plays. Worst comes to worst its on the stick of the other team and it's a 2 on 2 or 3 on 2 in the absolute worst case scenario. We give up enough of those to begin with who gives a **** if we give up one or two more a game with our defense if it means we'll be able to create more offense.

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05-05-2013, 02:54 PM
  #107
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No, its was a statement made by too many people in 2009.
Again I ask Can't it be both!?

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05-05-2013, 02:55 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I love how many are in complete denial blaming this solely on the lack of skill on the roster.

I just listened to Torts post practise presser. He HIMSELF said that our neutral zone play had been GOOD. Nothing wrong with our transition game.

And of course he says it. It's our game plan to just bang the puck out of our own end.
Yep, because his transitional game is bang it up, dump and chase. Then cycle behind the net. It completely destroys any chance at offense. And traps 3 forwards deep in their zone.

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05-05-2013, 03:12 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I love how many are in complete denial blaming this solely on the lack of skill on the roster.

I just listened to Torts post practise presser. He HIMSELF said that our neutral zone play had been GOOD. Nothing wrong with our transition game.

And of course he says it. It's our game plan to just bang the puck out of our own end.
Anyone who thinks we have a weak roster is not seeing enough of the other 29 teams or does not grasp what an NHL team really looks like. I've seen more than a few posts calling Callahan a third liner, for instance, which indicates that some people do not understand that the average third line winger scores less than 20 points a season. This is a top 5, at worst top 10 roster. Easily. It is simply playing like ****, losing to an inferior team, and making a middle of the pack goalie look like Jacques Plante.


Last edited by Cake or Death: 05-05-2013 at 03:18 PM. Reason: fixed crappy grammar ;)
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05-05-2013, 03:18 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
Anyone who thinks we have a weak roster is not seeing enough of the other 29 teams or does not grasp what an NHL team really looks like. I've seen more than a few posts calling Callahan is a third liner, for instance, which indicates that people do not understand that the average third line winger scores less than 20 points a season. This is a top 5, at worst top 10 roster. Easily. It is simply playing like ****, losing to an inferior team, and making a middle of the pack goalie look like Jacques Plante.
Ironically, I have been calling for Torts head. But I have also said that Cally, on a good offensive team, is probably a third liner. I always have felt he is a borderline 2nd/3rd liner. IMO, Cally needs the right line mates and system to maximize his offense.

I don't think he is a really smart offensive player. I think he has some really bad offensive habits at times. I'm not sure if he could play in puck possession system.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and I am happy he is on the team. But, I don't think he is an elite two way player either. Just my opinion. I do agree with you, however, the Rangers are a more talented team than some of the fans realize.

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05-05-2013, 03:21 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Ironically, I have been calling for Torts head. But I have also said that Cally, on a good offensive team, is probably a third liner. I always have felt he is a borderline 2nd/3rd liner. IMO, Cally needs the right line mates and system to maximize his offense.

I don't think he is a really smart offensive player. I think he has some really bad offensive habits at times. I'm not sure if he could play in puck possession system.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and I am happy he is on the team. But, I don't think he is an elite two way player either. Just my opinion.
I think he's a good two way player just that I'm getting sick and tired of his disappearing act. Yeah, he was noticeable in the 1st but where was he in the rest of the game?

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05-05-2013, 03:28 PM
  #112
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I think he's a good two way player just that I'm getting sick and tired of his disappearing act. Yeah, he was noticeable in the 1st but where was he in the rest of the game?
I just think of the blind backhand passes Cally makes into the slot in the ozone. For such a defensively responsible player, that is such an irresponsible play. He does it all the time. My only guess is that it worked a lot for him in juniors, so he just keeps on doing it. Its nonsensical.

All it takes is opposing player to intercept those stupid passes and then hit a streaking player out of the zone for a counter attack.

I have never understood why Cally has developed such bad puck habits like that for being such a good two way player.

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05-05-2013, 03:30 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
I just think of the blind backhand passes Cally makes into the slot in the ozone. For such a defensively responsible player, that is such an irresponsible play. He does it all the time. My only guess is that it worked a lot for him in juniors, so he just keeps on doing it. Its nonsensical.

All it takes is opposing player to intercept those stupid passes and then hit a streaking player out of the zone for a counter attack.

I have never understood why Cally has developed such bad puck habits like that for being such a good two way player.
I also see that as a knock on Torts. I do agree that it's dumb and he continues to do it, so why hasn't Torts told him to knock it out?

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05-05-2013, 03:33 PM
  #114
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I also see that as a knock on Torts. I do agree that it's dumb and he continues to do it, so why hasn't Torts told him to knock it out?


My only guess is lack of offensive structure from Torts. Remember, he doesn't coach offense.

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05-05-2013, 03:37 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Ironically, I have been calling for Torts head. But I have also said that Cally, on a good offensive team, is probably a third liner. I always have felt he is a borderline 2nd/3rd liner. IMO, Cally needs the right line mates and system to maximize his offense.

I don't think he is a really smart offensive player. I think he has some really bad offensive habits at times. I'm not sure if he could play in puck possession system.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and I am happy he is on the team. But, I don't think he is an elite two way player either. Just my opinion. I do agree with you, however, the Rangers are a more talented team than some of the fans realize.
Cally isn't elite. 98 or 99 percent of the league isn't elite. But when you consider the avg second line winger scores 38 pts and the avg third line winger scores less than 20, he looks a lot more like a second liner than I think most people realize. Sure, he isn't necessarily the guy you want lugging the puck up the ice. But he has a good set of hands around the net and a decent knack for scoring in tight and will pot you 20 goals per.

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05-05-2013, 03:40 PM
  #116
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@NYDNRangers: Torts says he'd put McD back on for long OT shift "10 times out of 10." Clowe says he's a "maybe" for Gm 3, not playing has him "miserable"
Posted this in the other thread, didn't see it in here

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05-05-2013, 03:48 PM
  #117
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Torts needs to go.

His system ruins the game of hockey. Rangers barely know what to do when they get to the offensive zone. It's a shame. With the personnel we have that should be a source of strength.

No longer will I defend Tortorella saying he doesn't have the correct personnel to have a competent offense. It's not the players any more, it's the system. It's his reluctance to focus on offense. Sure, you "can't teach offense" but there is a fine line between teaching offense and suppressing it, which Tortorella does.

How does his system suppress offense? First, it begins with the demeanor he coaches in. He teaches with fear. Don't make mistakes, he teaches. That's the stupidest thing ever. Try and limit mistakes, sure. But he makes it seem like the team is going to war every night. The players don't understand they they are up against human competition and that the other team has the same ability to make mistakes. Instead of focusing on being dynamic and/or capitalizing on the other team's mistakes, the Rangers focus on not making any mistakes themselves. That inhibits creativity right there, players are punished if they focus on creative and offensive skills as opposed to defensive. The fear he coaches with is then in turn transferred to the players on the ice. They don't have creativity on the ice, they don't trust each other on the ice. They hesitate when they have to make decisions in the offensive zones. In addition, constantly playing the puck on the boards illustrates the lack of trust Torts has in his players. There is minimal room to make mistakes on the boards, so Torts focuses on winning the trenches and maybe getting a lucky bounce in, instead of really focusing on fixing his offense. It's disgusting. I equate this to a normal business environment, some bosses instill fear in their team and office, others constructively choose to help their team and office. How Torts teaches is not indicative of a good coach/mentor/leader.

In addition, he meddles with the players! He's a complete controller. Team needs to do it his way or the high way. And if his way doesn't work, he changes up the lines and meddles with the chemistry some players have. How do players get chemistry? Over time, playing together, players get to know each other and what the other is most likely to do. That only happens if the line stays together for a while. Torts changes lines up, sometimes 2 periods into creating the line! How does he expect any one of his lines will have long lasting success if he constantly meddles with them? Horrific.

I'm not going to harp on all of Torts weaknesses. He's a good guy outside of hockey. But as a coach he's ruining the game of hockey, and if this team expects to ever amount to anything, we need a new coach.


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05-05-2013, 04:00 PM
  #118
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Torts needs to go.

His system ruins the game of hockey. Rangers barely know what to do when they get to the offensive zone. It's a shame. With the personnel we have that should be a source of strength.

No longer will I defend Tortorella saying he doesn't have the correct personnel to have a competent offense. It's not the players any more, it's the system. It's his reluctance to focus on offense. Sure, you "can't teach offense" but there is a fine line between teaching offense and suppressing it, which Tortorella does.

How does his system suppress offense? First, it begins with the demeanor he coaches in. He teaches with fear. Don't make mistakes, he teaches. That's the stupidest thing ever. Try and limit mistakes, sure. But he makes it seem like the team is going to war every night. The players don't understand they they are up against human competition and that the other team has the same ability to make mistakes. Instead of focusing on being dynamic and/or capitalizing on the other team's mistakes, the Rangers focus on not making any mistakes themselves. That inhibits creativity right there, players are punished if they focus on creative and offensive skills as opposed to defensive. The fear he coaches with is then in turn transferred to the players on the ice. They don't have creativity on the ice, they don't trust each other on the ice. They hesitate when they have to make decisions in the offensive zones. In addition, constantly playing the puck on the boards illustrates the lack of trust Torts has in his players. There is minimal room to make mistakes on the boards, so Torts focuses on winning the trenches and maybe getting a lucky bounce in, instead of really focusing on fixing his offense. It's disgusting. I equate this to a normal business environment, some bosses instill fear in their team and office, others constructively choose to help their team and office. How Torts teaches is not indicative of a good coach/mentor/leader.

In addition, he meddles with the players! He's a complete controller. Team needs to do it his way or the high way. And if his way doesn't work, he changes up the lines and meddles with the chemistry some players have. How do players get chemistry? Over time, playing together, players get to know each other and what the other is most likely to do. That only happens if the line stays together for a while. Torts changes lines up, sometimes 2 periods into creating the line! How does he expect any one of his lines will have long lasting success if he constantly meddles with them? Horrific

I'm not going to harp on all of Torts weaknesses. He's a good guy outside of hockey. But as a coach he's ruining the game of hockey, and if this team expects to ever amount to anything, we need a new coach.
Scotty Bowman school of coaching. The idea is to get all of your players to play together so you can throw out any line combination and it will be serviceable. It makes it really hard for opposing teams to get line match ups.

The difference is that Scotty Bowman is one of the greatest coaches of all time who tactically knew every possible style of hockey. He also DRILLED THE HELL out of his teams. All Scotty Bowman teams had great fundamentals. Torts? Get them physically prepared, some loose offensive structure, and then "put on your hard hats and go to work."

Torts is not Scotty Bowman and never will be.


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05-05-2013, 04:18 PM
  #119
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Scotty Bowman school of coaching. The idea is to get all of your players to play together so you can throw out any line combination and it will be serviceable. It makes it really hard for opposing teams to get line match ups.

The difference is that Scotty Bowman is one of the greatest coaches of all time who tactically knew every possible style of hockey. He also DRILLED THE HELL out of his teams. All Scotty Bowman teams had great fundamentals. Torts? Get them physically prepared, some loose structure, and then "put on your hard hats and go to work."

Torts is not Scotty Bowman and never will be.
Reminds me of a Bart Starr book I read when Starr was talking about Vince Lombardi. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but Starr essentially said, "He would drill on us fundamentals so relentlessly it was almost painful. We would do the same exact things over and over and over in practice. You hated it. But when it came game time, we all knew exactly what to do and decisions were automatic. It was at a point where even if other teams knew exactly what we would do, they still couldn't stop us."

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05-05-2013, 04:39 PM
  #120
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Torts is far from the issue and stop this SYSTEM ****!!! its not the issue and he hasn't changed lines up crazy like he has in the past so stop with that.. bc thats old and he hasnt done that in a while!!.... We have a top 10 team on paper, with the best goalie in the world.. its an absolute joke we arent scoring but even worse we aren't skating hard.. the only issue i see is lack of NO compete level.. we're not battling for loose pucks, winning board battles, finnish checks, and no hustle up and down the lineup!!!.. and again the story of the rangers season.. as bad as we played all season, if we had a PP we'd prob be a top 5 team just on the fact that we've had so many god damn chances...

Richards is playing like a bum... $12m for this??? guy is soft on the puck, isn't being the leader we need him to be.. Good players find ways to get it done and he has the pedigree to be the X-factor, which is why we brought him in here..THe issue is noone wants to shoot on the PP.. its simple you shoot, screen the goal and create rebounds.. nothing complex or crazy about a pp.. shooot shoot and shooot!! We dont need a bomb from the point just shots on goal.. you can only score if you shoot, sounds pretty simple ot me.. they over think everythnk!! or maybe under think rather with stupid passes and out of position..

Nash has been good but nowhere near where we need him to be, we saw glimps in the 3rd but he needs to be a difference maker and more engaged.. battle for pucks, hit people and use that big frame of his.. everything needs to be fast and stronger in the playoffs.. No excuses Washington isn't a better team then us.. they just taking advantage of situations..

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05-05-2013, 05:05 PM
  #121
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Torts is far from the issue and stop this SYSTEM ****!!! its not the issue and he hasn't changed lines up crazy like he has in the past so stop with that.. bc thats old and he hasnt done that in a while!!.... We have a top 10 team on paper, with the best goalie in the world.. its an absolute joke we arent scoring but even worse we aren't skating hard.. the only issue i see is lack of NO compete level.. we're not battling for loose pucks, winning board battles, finnish checks, and no hustle up and down the lineup!!!.. and again the story of the rangers season.. as bad as we played all season, if we had a PP we'd prob be a top 5 team just on the fact that we've had so many god damn chances...

Richards is playing like a bum... $12m for this??? guy is soft on the puck, isn't being the leader we need him to be.. Good players find ways to get it done and he has the pedigree to be the X-factor, which is why we brought him in here..THe issue is noone wants to shoot on the PP.. its simple you shoot, screen the goal and create rebounds.. nothing complex or crazy about a pp.. shooot shoot and shooot!! We dont need a bomb from the point just shots on goal.. you can only score if you shoot, sounds pretty simple ot me.. they over think everythnk!! or maybe under think rather with stupid passes and out of position..

Nash has been good but nowhere near where we need him to be, we saw glimps in the 3rd but he needs to be a difference maker and more engaged.. battle for pucks, hit people and use that big frame of his.. everything needs to be fast and stronger in the playoffs.. No excuses Washington isn't a better team then us.. they just taking advantage of situations..
Lol this team can work as hard as they want it's not going to matter if they don't have a good system in place.

Have you ever played hockey?

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05-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
Torts is far from the issue and stop this SYSTEM ****!!! its not the issue and he hasn't changed lines up crazy like he has in the past so stop with that.. bc thats old and he hasnt done that in a while!!.... We have a top 10 team on paper, with the best goalie in the world.. its an absolute joke we arent scoring but even worse we aren't skating hard.. the only issue i see is lack of NO compete level.. we're not battling for loose pucks, winning board battles, finnish checks, and no hustle up and down the lineup!!!.. and again the story of the rangers season.. as bad as we played all season, if we had a PP we'd prob be a top 5 team just on the fact that we've had so many god damn chances...

Richards is playing like a bum... $12m for this??? guy is soft on the puck, isn't being the leader we need him to be.. Good players find ways to get it done and he has the pedigree to be the X-factor, which is why we brought him in here..THe issue is noone wants to shoot on the PP.. its simple you shoot, screen the goal and create rebounds.. nothing complex or crazy about a pp.. shooot shoot and shooot!! We dont need a bomb from the point just shots on goal.. you can only score if you shoot, sounds pretty simple ot me.. they over think everythnk!! or maybe under think rather with stupid passes and out of position..

Nash has been good but nowhere near where we need him to be, we saw glimps in the 3rd but he needs to be a difference maker and more engaged.. battle for pucks, hit people and use that big frame of his.. everything needs to be fast and stronger in the playoffs.. No excuses Washington isn't a better team then us.. they just taking advantage of situations..
Sigh...

The reason why the Rangers look a little non committal to the forecheck is that Torts was alternating between 1-2-2 forecheck and 2-1-2 high forecheck all game. Basically, Torts doesn't want his players getting caught below the hashmarks. So he has to have at least one player high to cut down any quick counter attacks.

The problem is that the Rangers will get bodies in the offensive zone but he doesn't want them to commit to the forecheck until one of the forecheckers can start a scrum. Its non-committal and its utterly pointless against the caps who can actually pass a puck out of a zone quickly. Its a good strategy against perhaps a slower transitional team like Boston. Not a good a strategy against quicker teams like Montreal, Pitt, or Washington. Unless, you want your high man to play transitional D all game.

They may as well trap with how ineffective their forechecking schemes are. Also, their poor transition game doesn't help with establishing a forecheck either. It has nothing to do with effort or compete level.

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05-05-2013, 05:25 PM
  #123
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Always on the money, BB. Good insight.

With them collapsing so low, how do you expect them to
A.) Win races to the boards
B.) get any kind of odd man opportunity going the other way
C.) not eventually wind up screening Hank or deflecting the shot into their own net

Also, I think NBC mentioned it. The Rangers have now started to collapse on the PK as well. They used to be pretty aggressive there and only collapse 5 on 5. But really? Now they're collapsing on the PK too? great way to get killed. Green scored because he had half an hour to wind up and shoot with no one pressuring him in the high slot.

If you don't think this problem is systemic, then you probably haven't been watching many other NHL games. Even the Florida Panthers or the Colorado Avalanche have more composure in the offensive zone and better breakout techniques.

But hey, John Tortorella says that our Neutral zone play is great. So let's believe him instead of actually watching the team play.

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05-05-2013, 05:33 PM
  #124
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You guys feel confident with these three operating the team?


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05-05-2013, 05:34 PM
  #125
haveandare
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I've been pretty firmly against the blame everything on Torts idea throughout the season, but I must say, I'm getting real tired of watching guys look like they've never played with their teammates before. I'll gladly admit that I don't know the nuances of strategy enough to say why this happens so often, but it's absolutely terrible and it's killing this team. People wind around the boards to spots where nobody is. People make drop passes to space that the other team beats their linemates to. People pass TO the other team more often than should ever be considered okay. It's like 5 guys got picked up off the street and put on the ice together.

Last year's team, as much as they had trouble on offense, they never looked this clueless in all three zones. They were at least on top of everything in their own area. Over the past two games (granted its not a huge sample size) the team has looked like they have no strength, not physical strength, but no part of their game that they are clearly comfortable with and good at executing with consistency.

EDIT: spelling

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