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Where can Miller go?

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Old
05-04-2013, 10:26 PM
  #76
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Miller
Myers
MIN 1st
For
Dubnyk
Eberle
EDM 1st

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Old
05-04-2013, 11:29 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Brassard is worth four 1sts tho
I agree with your comparison... your comment was equally stupid

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05-05-2013, 04:45 AM
  #78
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I agree with your comparison... your comment was equally stupid
To be clear, you're saying you'd rather have JMFJ and what was at the time perceived to be a 15-20 overall than 20-25 overall, a 2nd, Larsson, and Hackett? I know your keen hockey mind counters our wild raving homerism but there's just no way.

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05-05-2013, 09:10 AM
  #79
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Maybe Darcy's presser was a rougue.

1. Not sold on Pegula signing off on total rebuild.
2. Sign Miller (destination Buffalo) & vanes to 3-5 year deals.
3. Trade Stafford & Gerbe.
4. Bring in one solid top 4 dman.
5. Bring in one solid top 6 forward.
6. Rebuild bottom 6 (other posters idea and made very good sense)

I think the more Miller looks at the luongo saga, he will realize there aren't too many places for him to land. A sit down with those two would go a long way. Leino getting back could help too. Adding Leino, forward and dman, with Ennis n Coho in their third years, the team wouldn't be too bad. Plus with a couple prospects stepping up/in within the next two years, the team is fine. IMO, we need Miller.

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05-05-2013, 09:46 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
To be clear, you're saying you'd rather have JMFJ and what was at the time perceived to be a 15-20 overall than 20-25 overall, a 2nd, Larsson, and Hackett? I know your keen hockey mind counters our wild raving homerism but there's just no way.
Who is JMFJ? Do you mean the 21 yr old power forward Voracek? Far and away the best asset in either deal.

Why do you label that 1st as perceived to be 15-20? I guess it was to make your argument seem better. Try labeling it a potential top 5 pick that ended up being 8th.

Or did you just swap your argument to the LA deal after you realized how dumb your comment was?

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05-05-2013, 09:54 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SabresFanNorthPortFL View Post
Maybe Darcy's presser was a rougue.

1. Not sold on Pegula signing off on total rebuild.
2. Sign Miller (destination Buffalo) & vanes to 3-5 year deals.
3. Trade Stafford & Gerbe.
4. Bring in one solid top 4 dman.
5. Bring in one solid top 6 forward.
6. Rebuild bottom 6 (other posters idea and made very good sense)

I think the more Miller looks at the luongo saga, he will realize there aren't too many places for him to land. A sit down with those two would go a long way. Leino getting back could help too. Adding Leino, forward and dman, with Ennis n Coho in their third years, the team wouldn't be too bad. Plus with a couple prospects stepping up/in within the next two years, the team is fine. IMO, we need Miller.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Both Darcy and Miller might realize, after testing the market, that staying put is better for both of them. We can slowly phase in Enroth (or whoever) by having him eventually compete for starts with Miller, eventually taking over by the end of the three year period. If Miller plays too well for anyone to usurp him, then all the better. His pay rate would obviously have to come down.

I also think we are less pieces from having a competitive team than our standings indicate. Hockey's Future site has us ranked 8th among all teams in prospect talent. That's where team's coming OUT of rebuilds are ranked, not going into one. We'll certainly be even higher on that list after all of our picks this year. A "Rebuild of bottom 6," and replacement of one or two more top line guys, and we're winning way more of those one point games we lost this year. We pick up that big Finnish D man (RR), who's almost ready for NHL, at #8 this year, and D is one step closer too.

With guys like Girgs, Larsson, Tropp coming to add to Ott and everyone else, we're going to have among the best supporting cast in the league. We basically only need 1 or 2 top line wingers over the next few years. We can turn things around in 2, 3 years, with Van and Miller staying.

This is just one way of thinking - If we can get a 1st for Miller, I'm all for it. I just don't think it's in the cards. Do we really want to deal him for a 2nd or a middling prospect? (I know, probably yes haha. I don't love Miller, mind you).


Last edited by Prishpreed: 05-05-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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Old
05-05-2013, 12:37 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Who is JMFJ? Do you mean the 21 yr old power forward Voracek? Far and away the best asset in either deal.

Why do you label that 1st as perceived to be 15-20? I guess it was to make your argument seem better. Try labeling it a potential top 5 pick that ended up being 8th.

Or did you just swap your argument to the LA deal after you realized how dumb your comment was?
Silly me for comparing the two deadline deals? How woul the trade from Philly be a situational comparable at all?

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05-05-2013, 01:12 PM
  #83
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I was happy as a pig in **** when we got Larsson... so dont get the wrong idea about my opinion.

I guess my point, is that pre-trade... there was a lot of pointing to the Carter/Richards trades, and names like Schenn and the #8 overall...

All I'm saying is that it's interesting what people consider good trade value pre and post trades
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Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
I prefer Poms' return to Carter's honestly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Gleason View Post
Silly me for comparing the two deadline deals? How woul the trade from Philly be a situational comparable at all?
Nice try

You knew what trades I was referring to.
You realized how silly your comment was
You then pivoted to the LA trade for cover

Fail

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05-05-2013, 01:59 PM
  #84
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Could something around Miller for Strome happen?

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05-05-2013, 02:10 PM
  #85
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Could something around Miller for Strome happen?
I would imagine the Isles are likely on Miller's list of 8 teams he won't accept a trade to.

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05-05-2013, 02:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...5UO/story.html

While all of Regier's statements this past week indicate he wants to move up in the draft, it's not a foregone conclusion that he'll use all of his draft picks on draft selections. His comments at the trade deadline about how draft picks have become the "currency of today's NHL", along with the admissions in his press conference about needing to add "top players", make me think like Dupont that he could very well be exploring how to package some of his high picks in a trade for a proven player with NHL experience and in his mid-20s to fit the age group of his core. Regier made the same comparisons Dupont points out about how high-draft pick players were used by LA to get proven vets - and, if he realizes that other than Miller and Vanek, he isn't going to get much in return for the rest of the veterans on his roster, he may be planning to offer his 1st rounders.

I think Chris Stewart is a player the try hard to get. It cook be part of a Trade of Miller + for Halak and Stewart. St Louis having all those RFAs will be difficult to sign them all.

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05-05-2013, 02:16 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Could something around Miller for Strome happen?
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I would imagine the Isles are likely on Miller's list of 8 teams he won't accept a trade to.
Snow wouldn't even consider it, anyways. Miller will not return a prospect of that nature.

The Islanders are finally competitive again. They're not going to trade away one of hockey's top prospects for a year of Miller.

If you're looking at Isles' prospects, maybe Snow considers Nelson or Lee. Even that's doubtful.

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05-05-2013, 02:21 PM
  #88
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I think Chris Stewart is a player the try hard to get. It cook be part of a Trade of Miller + for Halak and Stewart. St Louis having all those RFAs will be difficult to sign them all.
Don't see why St Louis would do that TBH. If they were gonna deal Halak for that reason, they'd look to shed salary and roll with Elliott/Allen IMO, not pick up a high priced goalie. Even otherwise I think they have enough space. They have ~24.5M.

RFA:
Pietrangelo -- 5M
Stewart -- 4M
Berglund -- 3M
Russell -- 2.5M
Cole -- 2M
Shattenkirk -- 3M

That's 19.5 M. So they'd still have 5M with 12 forwards, 7D, and 2G. So they can easily fill out a couple more forwards with that 5M. Or they can add salary to what I've listed if those are too low estimates. None of their UFAs are guys they need to re-sign. I suppose they could keep McDonald, but at a significant price cut--he will be 36 after all and certainly not worth 4.7M.

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05-05-2013, 02:33 PM
  #89
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The Sabres can always retain some of Millers salary, I believe a little over 3 mil.Thats why I believe that if Miller is dealt he's going to get a pretty good return. A Vezina winning goalie at 3 million is a steal. That cap hit makes him available to nearly every contending team, so hopefully someone needs an upgrade at net.

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05-05-2013, 02:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by gallagt01 View Post
Snow wouldn't even consider it, anyways. Miller will not return a prospect of that nature.

The Islanders are finally competitive again. They're not going to trade away one of hockey's top prospects for a year of Miller.

If you're looking at Isles' prospects, maybe Snow considers Nelson or Lee. Even that's doubtful.
He might. Keep in mind the Isles are still considered by many as an undesirable destination. Snow still has to overpay to entice players to come there. They also have no goalies signed for next season.

As has been mentioned in other threads, top prospects are valuable for many reasons. One of which is as trade bait to fill holes on the roster.


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05-05-2013, 03:36 PM
  #91
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If we can't at least get a top prospect for a Vezina winning goalie in his prime, then maybe this UFA **** is getting out of hand. Maybe we need to work out a gentleman's agreement around an extension and a trade.

Seriously, guys, seriously. If a proven Vezina winning goalie at age 30 is not worth one top prospect - not like a Yakupov or a Nugent-Hopkins, but somebody like Strome who isn't even in the league and might not even transition - then something's ****ed. You're basically telling me franchise goalies are worth nothing. Strome was a #5 pick a year ago. He didn't make the team. The last time we traded for someone in that range we sent Peca (who didn't even have a contract) out for Connolly (#5) and Pyatt (#8) just two years after their drafting, and both of them had already made it in the NHL. If Miller isn't worth even one player in that range, we need to put some more years on that deal.

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05-05-2013, 04:13 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
If we can't at least get a top prospect for a Vezina winning goalie in his prime, then maybe this UFA **** is getting out of hand. Maybe we need to work out a gentleman's agreement around an extension and a trade.

Seriously, guys, seriously. If a proven Vezina winning goalie at age 30 is not worth one top prospect - not like a Yakupov or a Nugent-Hopkins, but somebody like Strome who isn't even in the league and might not even transition - then something's ****ed. You're basically telling me franchise goalies are worth nothing. Strome was a #5 pick a year ago. He didn't make the team. The last time we traded for someone in that range we sent Peca (who didn't even have a contract) out for Connolly (#5) and Pyatt (#8) just two years after their drafting, and both of them had already made it in the NHL. If Miller isn't worth even one player in that range, we need to put some more years on that deal.
at 30 yrs old, and 4 years removed from winning a Vezina, Jose Theodore was traded at the deadline during the final year of his deal, for..... David Aebischer

reality doesn't mesh with your beliefs

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05-05-2013, 04:16 PM
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at 30 yrs old, and 4 years removed from winning a Vezina, Jose Theodore was traded at the deadline during the final year of his deal, for..... David Aebischer

reality doesn't mesh with your beliefs
Not even remotely comparable. He'd lost the starting job and had a 3.46 GAA. He went to a team where he played less than half the games. If we're planning on moving Miller, we'd better be planning on moving him to a team that thinks that he's an upgrade in goal. Preferably a team like the Isles that are an upgrade in goal away from being dangerous.

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05-05-2013, 04:22 PM
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Not even remotely comparable. He'd lost the starting job and had a 3.46 GAA. He went to a team where he played less than half the games. If we're planning on moving Miller, we'd better be planning on moving him to a team that thinks that he's an upgrade in goal. Preferably a team like the Isles that are an upgrade in goal away from being dangerous.
stats are irrelevant, the situations are plenty comparable... you can bury your head in the sand and pretend that the trade market for goalies isn't historically far far far below what you think.

Luongo returned Auld, Allen, and a year of Bertuzzi past his prime

find one trade of a veteran goalie that returned a high end prospect... good luck.

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05-05-2013, 04:31 PM
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You really think Luongo hasn't been moved because the Canucks haven't been offered a single ****ing high end prospect?

FWIW, Spector's seems to think Luongo's value is along the lines of:

From Chicago: Bolland, Stalberg and a 2nd
From Toronto: Bozak, Kadri and a 2nd
From Florida: Parros, Theodore and Weiss

See http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-trades/page/2

Any of these packages are worth more than Strome, I think it's very safe to say. So what am I missing that makes Miller such an incomparable dud?

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05-05-2013, 04:37 PM
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stats are irrelevant, the situations are plenty comparable... you can bury your head in the sand and pretend that the trade market for goalies isn't historically far far far below what you think.

Luongo returned Auld, Allen, and a year of Bertuzzi past his prime

find one trade of a veteran goalie that returned a high end prospect... good luck.
Luongo returned a forward who scored 71 points that year, a defenseman who played 20 minutes a night for the Canucks, and the Canuck's starting goalie.

That's your example of there being no trade market for goalies???

You don't think you can trade a 71 point forward to a team that needs them for a high end prospect? Let alone that forward, plus one of your top four defensemen, plus your starting goalie? Yet that's exactly what you're citing for evidence that no one will pay a high end prospect for Miller?

This is tin foil hat stuff, guys.

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05-05-2013, 04:50 PM
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Luongo returned a forward who scored 71 points that year, a defenseman who played 20 minutes a night for the Canucks, and the Canuck's starting goalie.

That's your example of there being no trade market for goalies???

You don't think you can trade a 71 point forward to a team that needs them for a high end prospect? Let alone that forward, plus one of your top four defensemen, plus your starting goalie? Yet that's exactly what you're citing for evidence that no one will pay a high end prospect for Miller?

This is tin foil hat stuff, guys.
that's quite a revisionist way to look at the Luongo trade


wait... what's the conspiracy part, you know for the tinfoil hats?

Bertuzzi was in the last year of his deal
Auld was... figuratively a starting goalie... but be serious
Allen is/was a good, solid, Lydman-esque defensemen

It would be like trading Miller for:
Jason Labarbera, Radim Vrbata, and Rostislav Klesla

whoopeee

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05-05-2013, 04:53 PM
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Jame, you offer two trades for comparison to show what you think Miller's trade value is (and you think it's nil, or at least less than a guy like Strome).

Deal #1: Jose Theodore nets David Aebischer. One backup goalie for another.

Deal #2: Roberto Luongo nets Todd Bertuzzi (a 31 year old, 71 point power forward, 2 years removed from a 97 point season), Bryan Allen (a 25 year old, top 4 defenseman averaging over 20 minutes a night), and Alex Auld (their previous starting goaltender).

The fact that you can't tell the difference between these two tenders or the value of the returns they fetched is just driving home that you've internalized your "all goalies are interchangeable and worthless" philosophy so deeply that you can't tell the difference between a deal with value or one without it.

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05-05-2013, 04:55 PM
  #99
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You really think Luongo hasn't been moved because the Canucks haven't been offered a single ****ing high end prospect?

FWIW, Spector's seems to think Luongo's value is along the lines of:

From Chicago: Bolland, Stalberg and a 2nd
From Toronto: Bozak, Kadri and a 2nd
From Florida: Parros, Theodore and Weiss

See http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...-trades/page/2


Any of these packages are worth more than Strome, I think it's very safe to say. So what am I missing that makes Miller such an incomparable dud?

hardcore lols for the deal including Kadri

Toronto offered Scrivens and Two 2nd rounders... that was the CONFIRMED offer (dreger)

i expect that deal to be made in the offseason. it didn't make any sense for Vancouver to do it in seasons if they weren't getting anything to help them with a playoff run

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05-05-2013, 04:58 PM
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And as long as we're comparing Miller and Luongo, let's not forget that Miller didn't get pulled in the playoffs and lose the starting job.

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