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Where can Miller go?

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Old
05-05-2013, 10:59 PM
  #151
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I'll repost this:



If the goal is to bottom out, you trade Miller for whatever you can get. If the goal is to maximize player value, which trade can Buffalo make that maximizes his value over playing?
The goal is to rebuild... nothing about keeping Miller assists the only goal...

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05-05-2013, 11:02 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by FanboySlayer View Post
Where he belongs is Pittsburgh, a team who should be winning multiple Stanley Cups but don't - and I guarantee you they won't win it this year either and part of the reason is their goaltending - Fleury isn't an elite goaltender, can never do what Jonathan Quick did last year or Tim Thomas the year before.

Miller loves the limelight, Crosby and the Penguins are the NHL's poster boys - it's a great fit for both parties.
except... for like... that time when he did...


1.97/.933 on their first cup final run...

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05-05-2013, 11:02 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
There is a 4th option: compliance buyout. Obviously getting something (even a 7th round pick) would be preferable, but if there really is no deal...
This isn't a realistic option. It's not going to happen.

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05-05-2013, 11:03 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The goal is to rebuild... nothing about keeping Miller assists the only goal...
And if Regier trades Vanek and Stafford for assets for the rebuild, but selects to retain Miller because he can't get value?

That could happen. And I don't think it derails a rebuild. Regier isn't getting much for Miller anyway. And it doesn't matter who's in goal, right? So it shouldn't matter if it's Miller, or Hackett, or Enroth, or whoever, right?

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05-05-2013, 11:06 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
And if Regier trades Vanek and Stafford for assets for the rebuild, but selects to retain Miller because he can't get value?

That could happen. And I don't think it derails a rebuild. Regier isn't getting mud for Miller anyway. And it doesn't matter who's in goal, right?
it would be stupid for multiple reasons

any return is better than no return
miller doesn't have the mental fortitude to be a leader through a rebuild
he'd be a constant distraction
he'd prevent the development of a younger goalie

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05-05-2013, 11:21 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
it would be stupid for multiple reasons

any return is better than no return
If Regier is maximizing value, that statement isn't true. It's only true if Regier wants Miller off the roster.

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
miller doesn't have the mental fortitude to be a leader through a rebuild
Does Miller have to be a leader? I don't question that he doesn't have mental fortitude, but does it matter if your goalie isn't a leader? Which teams have goalie leadership? Fleury? Osgood? Niemi? The only recent goalie leader to win was Thomas.

Does any of this matter during the rebuild, when the Sabres are going to suck regardless? What's having Miller around another 1-3 years going to detract from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
he'd be a constant distraction
Distraction from what? He's the same he's been in the past. It's about the team in front of the goalie, right? If Regier re-signed him for a few more seasons, which distraction are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
he'd prevent the development of a younger goalie
You say a goalie-is-a-goalie-is-a-goalie. So who cares if it's Miller or Hackett? Right?

BTW, I think trading Miller is the right way to go. I just don't see much value in it, and won't be surprised at all if Regier doesn't trade Miller, or even resigns him.

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05-05-2013, 11:28 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If Regier is maximizing value, that statement isn't true. It's only true if Regier wants Miller off the roster.
i dont see your point... it's probably over my head

Quote:
Does Miller have to be a leader? I don't question that he doesn't have mental fortitude, but does it matter if your goalie isn't a leader? Which teams have goalie leadership? Fleury? Osgood? Niemi? The only recent goalie leader to win was Thomas.
i dont think Miller is capable of taking a back seat at this stage of his career.

Quote:
Does any of this matter during the rebuild, when the Sabres are going to suck regardless? What's having Miller around another 1-3 years going to detract from?
a new team, a new identity

Quote:

Distraction from what? He's the same he's been in the past. It's about the team in front of the goalie, right? If Regier re-signed him for a few more seasons, which distraction are you talking about?
distraction from a new direction, a distraction from the move from being a team trying to win, to a team trying to build. a distraction as the olympics approach, a distraction from a new leadership core needing to assert itself in a lockerroom in which he would remain the domineering figure



Quote:
You say a goalie-is-a-goalie-is-a-goalie. So who cares if it's Miller or Hackett? Right?

BTW, I think trading Miller is the right way to go. I just don't see much value in it, and won't be surprised at all if Regier doesn't trade Miller, or even resigns him.
goalies need to be developed...
an NHL start, is an NHL starter... but to become an NHL Starter you need the reps... Miller being around prevents that development

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05-05-2013, 11:40 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
except... for like... that time when he did...


1.97/.933 on their first cup final run...
i don't remember him being other wordly good the way Quick and Thomas were - he sure isn't a dominant goalie now.

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05-05-2013, 11:41 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont see your point... it's probably over my head
Unless Miller doesn't want to stick around and forces a Hasek-esque situation, Regier probably tries to resign Miller. Miller gives the Sabres 60-ish games a year. That's better, strictly from a value perspective, than the low return Miller is going to get.

The only way Regier goes for any offer is if Miller doesn't want to be around, Regier doesn't want him around, or the new coach doesn't want him. Otherwise, because the goalie trade market values goalies so low, Miller offers more value to the Sabres simply playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont think Miller is capable of taking a back seat at this stage of his career.
Fair point only if Miller doesn't want to be around for a rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
a new team, a new identity
Players stick through rebuilds. Not many, but one or two can. If Vanek, Stafford, etc. are gone but Miller remains, and most of the team around him is new, the identity is changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
distraction from a new direction, a distraction from the move from being a team trying to win, to a team trying to build. a distraction as the olympics approach, a distraction from a new leadership core needing to assert itself in a lockerroom in which he would remain the domineering figure
Bolded = fair points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
goalies need to be developed...
an NHL start, is an NHL starter... but to become an NHL Starter you need the reps... Miller being around prevents that development
I don't buy that an NHL starter is an NHL starter... that's your take. But I can agree with the bolded part.

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05-05-2013, 11:43 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i dont see your point... it's probably over my head
I believe he's saying something like this:
-Trading Miller for a 2015 7th round pick instead of losing him in free agency gains the Sabres an asset
-Keeping Miller until his contract expires will help the team win more games, and we will get more value.
-If Regier sees more value in keeping Miller than the assets gained via trade, but he trades him anyway, he's trading Miller because he wants him off the team.

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Old
05-05-2013, 11:49 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Unless Miller doesn't want to stick around and forces a Hasek-esque situation, Regier probably tries to resign Miller. Miller gives the Sabres 60-ish games a year. That's better, strictly from a value perspective, than the low return Miller is going to get.

The only way Regier goes for any offer is if Miller doesn't want to be around, Regier doesn't want him around, or the new coach doesn't want him. Otherwise, because the goalie trade market values goalies so low, Miller offers more value to the Sabres simply playing.
yea, i just disagree... 60 games from Miller next year offers no value to the sabres... in fact, i think it has negative value long terms as pointed out in the distractions





Quote:
I don't buy that an NHL starter is an NHL starter... that's your take. But I can agree with the bolded part.
The POV is more detailed and nuanced than that... but that's for another thread

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05-05-2013, 11:52 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybresabre View Post
I believe he's saying something like this:
-Trading Miller for a 2015 7th round pick instead of losing him in free agency gains the Sabres an asset
-Keeping Miller until his contract expires will help the team win more games, and we will get more value.
-If Regier sees more value in keeping Miller than the assets gained via trade, but he trades him anyway, he's trading Miller because he wants him off the team.
i guess i dont see how winning a few more games during a rebuild, can be viewed as having significant value especially when considering all the negative aspects (as previously pointed out)

it makes no sense from a front office perspective, when you've announced REBUILD.

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05-05-2013, 11:53 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by FanboySlayer View Post
i don't remember him being other wordly good the way Quick and Thomas were - he sure isn't a dominant goalie now.
clearly your memory wasn't good, that's why I provided stats for you...

Pittsburgh isn't on the same planet defensively as LA and Boston... ever consider that?

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05-05-2013, 11:54 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yea, i just disagree... 60 games from Miller next year offers no value to the sabres... in fact, i think it has negative value long terms as pointed out in the distractions
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The POV is more detailed and nuanced than that... but that's for another thread
You starting that thread?

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05-05-2013, 11:55 PM
  #165
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You starting that thread?
I;ll get bored at some point after the draft... and post an op ed about it

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05-06-2013, 12:02 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i guess i dont see how winning a few more games during a rebuild, can be viewed as having significant value especially when considering all the negative aspects (as previously pointed out)

it makes no sense from a front office perspective, when you've announced REBUILD.
Having a good goalie to bail out the young guys during a rebuild is valuable, help them ride out the growing pains.
If the return is subpar and he helps establish a winning culture he should stay.

But your opinion is that there is no way a whiny miller can help establish a winning culture and we are better off letting him go early so we have more time finding a future keeper. Correct?

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05-06-2013, 12:05 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Grahn View Post
Having a good goalie to bail out the young guys during a rebuild is valuable, help them ride out the growing pains.
If the return is subpar and he helps establish a winning culture he should stay.
Give me an example... like Khabibulin in Edmonton?

Quote:
But your opinion is that there is no way a whiny miller can help establish a winning culture and we are better off letting him go early so we have more time finding a future keeper. Correct?
correct
(well, slight correction... so we have more time DEVELOPING our future keepers)

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05-06-2013, 12:08 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
clearly your memory wasn't good, that's why I provided stats for you...

Pittsburgh isn't on the same planet defensively as LA and Boston... ever consider that?
you know what Mark Twain said about statistics - Ryan Miller is an upgrade from Fleury and the majority of the league and fans would agree.

the Penguins don't win the Cup this year, they *should* be interested in Ryan Miller.

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05-06-2013, 12:12 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i guess i dont see how winning a few more games during a rebuild, can be viewed as having significant value especially when considering all the negative aspects (as previously pointed out)

it makes no sense from a front office perspective, when you've announced REBUILD.
I understood and translated what he was saying and I agree with what you're saying.

It doesn't help the team if he sticks around and the team grinds it out and ends up with another 8-14 pick. Of course, if he is a big distraction and he breaks down mentally or sulks, maybe that toxicity will lead to the team bottoming out...

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05-06-2013, 12:42 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by cybresabre View Post
I understood and translated what he was saying and I agree with what you're saying.

It doesn't help the team if he sticks around and the team grinds it out and ends up with another 8-14 pick. Of course, if he is a big distraction and he breaks down mentally or sulks, maybe that toxicity will lead to the team bottoming out...
In no way am I directly picking on you, just using your post as a springboard to get my point out... A)the bolded.... that's VERY unlikely...even if the appropriately-labeled toxicity is as prominent as ever, there needs to be additional factors in order for the team to bottom out to league worst or second worst...it'd take Miller being toxic to the 43928th extreme, Hodgson regressing and displaying those "negative pout" symptoms VAN fans claimed he has, Stafford somehow getting worse, Foligno and Ennis playing worse, Ott becoming ineffective at his role, etc. etc......

...but more importantly, B ) is that I can't bring myself to root for that to happen in any circumstance. The pain that getting to that point would cause me wouldn't be tolerable... I don't want to think about it.

And to think that there's realistically "a lot worse" that could come of a season than we just witnessed is nauseating in and of itself.

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05-06-2013, 01:10 AM
  #171
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A) Yeah, I am just spitballin'. B)We were told to expect suffering...

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05-06-2013, 02:55 AM
  #172
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Backstrom is UFA after this year so Minnesota might be interested.


Ryan Miller (Buffalo takes 3,125M of caphit)


1st 2013 + Erik Haula + conditonal 2nd (if Miller re-signs)


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05-06-2013, 04:01 AM
  #173
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Backstrom is UFA after this year so Minnesota might be interested.


Ryan Miller (Buffalo takes 3,125M of caphit)


1st 2013 + Erik Haula + conditonal 2nd (if Miller re-signs)

it's already ours

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05-06-2013, 04:27 AM
  #174
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it's already ours
1st 2014 then.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:46 AM
  #175
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Minnesota does have Harding. Who is playing for them in the playoffs so it isn't like they only think he's a backup. Sure he has a health issue but they do view him as a starter.

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