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Old
05-06-2013, 08:41 AM
  #51
rocky7
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I was talking more about how they over-hyped their Staal, based on incorrect perceptions, to help justify an overpayment. Rangers fans currently and Pens fans previously both have used misinformation (shocker, I know) about the roles their guys play or played.

As for the Pens' return, it was an excellent return and clear overpayment by the Canes. I never liked the deal and I like it even less. At least it didn't include Faulk or Skinner as many Pens fans insisted it would need to.
Agreed and especially based on performance thus far. I suppose next year may be more telling. I still think that if utilized properly in the capacity that he is best suited he would help the team a lot. Trying to make him into the player he isn't hasn't been the best approach. Maybe like he said in his presser he will continue to work on his game and become that great offensive threat he would like to be. In both scenarios, the payment would appear better.

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05-06-2013, 08:44 AM
  #52
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J Staal did fine this year, no training camp and had to play with the one man show most of the year. Obviously they struggle with chemistry, so a 2nd line "checking line" with Staal/Ruutu/whoever would probably be the best bet going forward. Wear down opponents and score plenty of goals as well.

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05-06-2013, 08:49 AM
  #53
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Yeah, I wasn't complaining about deal for J. Staal. We won't know for a few years how the deal plays out, but the Canes definitely got the best player in the deal and given how much of a mess this team was this year (new coach, lots of new personnel, key injuries etc..), I'll give it a few years.

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05-06-2013, 08:59 AM
  #54
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Too early to judge the Staal trade. This whole season was disjointed due to the lockout, no training camp and a ton of injuries. Like most trades, this one will need a few years to make an informed decision as to who "won".

I am not in the "just wait and he will be ours camp" regarding Marc Staal. You can't assume he will come to Carolina when he becomes a UFA. The Rangers will try to resign him and if they can't they will look to trade for assets. Just like Pittsburgh did with J. Staal.

The reason last years trade for J. Staal was so expensive was due to the Rangers bidding up the price. I 'heard' that was the reason Doumolin had to be thrown in. I would not be surprised to see Marc traded this off season. And if someone other than the Canes offers a long term extension he will probably take it.

Of course his injury complicates this. If he were to return for whatever remaining games the Rangers have and play well that would boost the chances of his being dealt.

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05-06-2013, 09:43 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Blown Away View Post
Too early to judge the Staal trade. This whole season was disjointed due to the lockout, no training camp and a ton of injuries. Like most trades, this one will need a few years to make an informed decision as to who "won".

I am not in the "just wait and he will be ours camp" regarding Marc Staal. You can't assume he will come to Carolina when he becomes a UFA. The Rangers will try to resign him and if they can't they will look to trade for assets. Just like Pittsburgh did with J. Staal.

The reason last years trade for J. Staal was so expensive was due to the Rangers bidding up the price. I 'heard' that was the reason Doumolin had to be thrown in. I would not be surprised to see Marc traded this off season. And if someone other than the Canes offers a long term extension he will probably take it.

Of course his injury complicates this. If he were to return for whatever remaining games the Rangers have and play well that would boost the chances of his being dealt.
If Marc wants to play with his brothers, he will let it be known and it will happen. JR will shell out an overpayment to bring him in, that much is a given. I just hope it is only in contract $$ when Marc is a FA and not in another franchise damaging trade.

JR can't afford to keep giving away young talent and Draft picks to bring in huge salaried players. As it stands now there isn't even money available to fix the defense under the Cap.

If Marc doesn't want to play with his brothers, the Canes shouldn't give up the large amount of assets to bring him in.

If you don't think JR had asked Eric and/or Jordan about all 3 brothers (I only count NHLers) finishing their careers in Carolina and paying them a huge amount you are kidding yourself. Marc knows the score and JR is beyond transparent on the issue.

Most teams would pay big
money for a solid D of Marc's calibre. JR will pay more than anyone else for the additional gimmick of having all 3 brothers, guaranteed.

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05-06-2013, 10:41 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
J Staal did fine this year, no training camp and had to play with the one man show most of the year. Obviously they struggle with chemistry, so a 2nd line "checking line" with Staal/Ruutu/whoever would probably be the best bet going forward. Wear down opponents and score plenty of goals as well.
I've never been overly impressed with his offensive game so I wasn't overly bothered by a so-so year. But I thought he was average defensively and that was a disappointment. I'd much rather play as a power wing that at C.

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05-06-2013, 10:42 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
If Marc wants to play with his brothers, he will let it be known and it will happen. JR will shell out an overpayment to bring him in, that much is a given. I just hope it is only in contract $$ when Marc is a FA and not in another franchise damaging trade. In the end Marc and the Rangers are going to get market value or close to it.

JR can't afford to keep giving away young talent and Draft picks to bring in huge salaried players. As it stands now there isn't even money available to fix the defense under the Cap.

If Marc doesn't want to play with his brothers, the Canes shouldn't give up the large amount of assets to bring him in.

If you don't think JR had asked Eric and/or Jordan about all 3 brothers (I only count NHLers) finishing their careers in Carolina and paying them a huge amount you are kidding yourself. Marc knows the score and JR is beyond transparent on the issue.

Most teams would pay big
money for a solid D of Marc's calibre. JR will pay more than anyone else for the additional gimmick of having all 3 brothers, guaranteed.
I sure JR has inquired. I suspect the answer he gets from the Staal's is something like "Well sure Marc would like to play with his brothers, but he has to look out for his own best interests".

Why do you claim it's "guaranteed" JR would over pay when you also say other teams would pay "big money" for Marc Staal? It is far from established that JR overpaid for Jordan. If the Canes did not pay the price they did, someone else would have. Same thing goes for Marc. Also, I really doubt Marc or his agent is going to say "I will only play in Carolina" as that would seriously hurt his leverage. In the end Marc and the Rangers will get market value or close to it. I do not see the Rangers letting him walk for nothing after next year.

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05-06-2013, 10:52 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
But in the end, weren't the Pens fans right? I mean for basically 48 games of Jordan Staal, they got a 1st (#8 pick), a former 1st and good young roster player (Sutter) and a good prospect (Dumoulin). That's a pretty good return for a guy who they were going to lose at the end of this season.
It was never a guarantee that Staal wouldn't resign with Pittsburgh. The guarantee was that he wouldn't resign long term. He rejected a life time contract because it would prevent him from playing with Eric.

The Bob McKenzie tweet that set off the powder keg said as such. If he didn't extend with the Pens (which was very much an option), he wouldn't resign with anyone he was traded to except the 'Canes.

We overpayed, but we also got the best year in the deal, and I view the trade as a trade for 3-4 years of J. Staal in his prime against the 1 year of free agency.

IIRC, the consensus opinion of the Pens was that Shero wouldn't trade Staal unless it was an upgrade (ie Skinner). Faulk was still unknown, so Skinner was who the Pens fans focused on. Even if Staal would walk at the end of the year, it was better to keep him and go all in than trade for a package of futures and a downgrade. Which is what he ended up doing.

The main debate was whether J. Staal would get a Mike Richards return...which he did (great young player + great prospect + okay pick vs. great young player + okay prospect + great pick). And 'Canes fans (myself included) where pretty adamant that Sutter would not be involved.

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05-06-2013, 10:54 AM
  #59
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I'm in the minority, but I'd trade for Marc now due to team need than wait and potentially waste another two years of an effective E. Staal, J. Staal, Ward, Faulk, Tlusty, Skinner and Semin. Plus, Marc's value gets lower each year, and the lower it gets, the less likely Sather will be willing to deal.

We have a 5 year window, and if we are waiting for Marc to be the "missing piece", than that shrinks to 3.

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05-06-2013, 11:04 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I'm in the minority, but I'd trade for Marc now due to team need than wait and potentially waste another two years of an effective E. Staal, J. Staal, Ward, Faulk, Tlusty, Skinner and Semin. Plus, Marc's value gets lower each year, and the lower it gets, the less likely Sather will be willing to deal.

We have a 5 year window, and if we are waiting for Marc to be the "missing piece", than that shrinks to 3.
Fair point but I wouldn't do it as I don't see him as the missing piece. The only unique thing he'd bring over several others is his last name. He's a quality D, no question, but he alone isn't the difference maker but management would treat his as such and you'd have Staal-Faulk and then the collection of 4/5/6's trying to play in the second pairing.

I would, however, make a deal for him if Pitkanen went the other way. It'd free up similar salary and would still allow for another quality D to be added. For this team to compete, it will need 2 quality Dmen to be added and that means from outside the organization.

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05-06-2013, 11:05 AM
  #61
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Rather than trading whatever it would take to acquire Marc Staal, why not trade that same thing for a different valued defenseman, then get Marc Staal ostensibly for free in 2 years?

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05-06-2013, 11:14 AM
  #62
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What about dangling next years #1 + players for Marc?

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05-06-2013, 11:14 AM
  #63
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Hey everyone,

Sorry to interrupt the Marc Staal talk. I'm sure he'll be a Cane very soon (that'll be a wonderful story when it happens too).

Some of us on the Canuck board were discussing a rebuild/retool, and figured that Carolina might be a good trading partner. You need defensemen, we need young forward talent. What say you to an Edler + our 1st round pick (20 something) for your 5th overall pick? Is this something you could see the Canes being interested in?

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05-06-2013, 11:18 AM
  #64
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I'd take that in a second. Others here will not.

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05-06-2013, 11:20 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Blown Away View Post
I sure JR has inquired. I suspect the answer he gets from the Staal's is something like "Well sure Marc would like to play with his brothers, but he has to look out for his own best interests".

Why do you claim it's "guaranteed" JR would over pay when you also say other teams would pay "big money" for Marc Staal? It is far from established that JR overpaid for Jordan. If the Canes did not pay the price they did, someone else would have. Same thing goes for Marc. Also, I really doubt Marc or his agent is going to say "I will only play in Carolina" as that would seriously hurt his leverage. In the end Marc and the Rangers will get market value or close to it. I do not see the Rangers letting him walk for nothing after next year.
But JR did pay the kings random for Jordan. Just as he would and maybe will for Marc. If you don't believe that fact then you don't know JR and the Canes org very well.

If Marc was on the open market, I'm very confident JR would say "I'm willing to pay you more than your highest offer, you name it". Marc's last name is worth a premium to JR that it isn't worth to other GMs. The ability to market "Come one and all to Carolina to see the 3 Staal brothers play" is worth overpaying Eric, Jordan, and Marc to JR, he had made that clear in the J. Staal acquisition and in comments to the media.

If Marc wouldn't accept a highest offer from the Canes, then the Canes don't want him.

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05-06-2013, 11:21 AM
  #66
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Hey everyone,

Sorry to interrupt the Marc Staal talk. I'm sure he'll be a Cane very soon (that'll be a wonderful story when it happens too).

Some of us on the Canuck board were discussing a rebuild/retool, and figured that Carolina might be a good trading partner. You need defensemen, we need young forward talent. What say you to an Edler + our 1st round pick (20 something) for your 5th overall pick? Is this something you could see the Canes being interested in?
That's a pretty offer, even with Edler's inconsistent play.

For me though, I'd rather keep the 1st round pick and target someone like Bieksa. I know consistency is an issue for him too but he has more of the edge the D lacks. What'd be his asking price?

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05-06-2013, 11:21 AM
  #67
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Take that deal with elder. Then pick up Marc Staal for next years #1 and McBain and amnesty Ruutu to save cap space. Deal Gleason.

Joni-Edler
Staal-Faulk
Harrison-Murphy
MAB

Or keep Gleason and replace Harrison in the Above. I'm sure we can't afford any of that, but dammit I'll dream.

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05-06-2013, 11:21 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sasha Cares View Post
I'd take that in a second. Others here will not.
Interesting. Is defense an area that Rutherford has identified as an area he wants to address? Or are you expecting he'll maybe take a run at Staal and keep the same group together more or less?

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05-06-2013, 11:23 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
That's a pretty offer, even with Edler's inconsistent play.

For me though, I'd rather keep the 1st round pick and target someone like Bieksa. I know consistency is an issue for him too but he has more of the edge the D lacks. What'd be his asking price?
Probably the same. Bieksa is a bit harder to move because he's a RH defenseman and we aren't deep there at all, and he has a NTC whereas Edler's NTC doesn't kick in until July (hence the speculation).

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05-06-2013, 11:23 AM
  #70
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I think the thinking is JR values the #5 VERY highly

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05-06-2013, 11:24 AM
  #71
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Interesting. Is defense an area that Rutherford has identified as an area he wants to address? Or are you expecting he'll maybe take a run at Staal and keep the same group together more or less?
Yes, the #1 priority and supposedly there will be major changes to the D corps.

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05-06-2013, 11:24 AM
  #72
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Stormy, I edited that while you were multi quoting lol

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05-06-2013, 11:25 AM
  #73
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Fair point but I wouldn't do it as I don't see him as the missing piece. The only unique thing he'd bring over several others is his last name. He's a quality D, no question, but he alone isn't the difference maker but management would treat his as such and you'd have Staal-Faulk and then the collection of 4/5/6's trying to play in the second pairing.
Fair enough.

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05-06-2013, 11:26 AM
  #74
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Fair point but I wouldn't do it as I don't see him as the missing piece. The only unique thing he'd bring over several others is his last name. He's a quality D, no question, but he alone isn't the difference maker but management would treat his as such and you'd have Staal-Faulk and then the collection of 4/5/6's trying to play in the second pairing.
That's true. Marc may not be the thing that makes our defense "great".

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05-06-2013, 11:26 AM
  #75
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Could we afford, if we amnesty Ruutu?

Joni-Edler
Staal-Faulk
Gleason-Murphy
MAB

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