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Coaching Staff Discussion: Summer Rehab Edition

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Old
05-05-2013, 11:12 PM
  #51
ColePens
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Only coach I'd die to have over Bylsma is Tippett. You guys already know that. I also think Fitz would have made one hell of a coach, too. Why did he not want to be a full-time coach?

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05-05-2013, 11:28 PM
  #52
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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I wonder if any of you think it would be ridiculous for Hawks fans to call for Quenneville's head if they didn't reach the SCF this year. Because it's pretty much the same thing.

We won in '09 and only made the 2nd round once since. The Hawks won in '10 and haven't even made the 2nd round once since...and they weren't missing Toews and Kane for one of those playoffs.

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05-05-2013, 11:41 PM
  #53
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05-05-2013, 11:41 PM
  #54
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I'll try to be productive here. I've been critical of Bylsma like many others, but he is the coach we have now.

I have seen in the past when the coaches have focused on an aspect of the game in practice, the players will respond in the next game.

Possibly, Dan and the other coaches can implement some pointers or aspects of the teams approach that might be relevent to the Islanders that can help the whole team.

I am not a coach, but some examples might be:
- To help with the forechecking and offensive zone possession time focus more on some cycling of the puck. This will help the Defence get a breather and should help slow down the Islander attack.
- Other HF Board members have mentioned trying to do more of skating out of the D-zone with the puck, maybe the coaches can focus on having the wingers helping more with taking passes from the D in the D-zone and then skating out with the puck and/or then making the pass out of the D-zone.
- I know a few years ago, the Pens practiced getting the puck out of the d-zone off of the boards without causing icing. Maybe a quick reminder and practice session of this will help the players think about this basic move more often.
- The islanders are sending one or sometimes two people down to the back of the net behind the Pen's goalie, it seems like they are trying to get Fleury to have to play bad angled shots and passes from behind the net. There must be a way to try to shut this down. Maybe, send the center or one of the wingers to go after the player behind the net and let the D stay out front.

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05-05-2013, 11:42 PM
  #55
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Why does everything have to be black and white. Either you think he is brilliant or a moron.

I do not think that Bylsma is a bad coach.

Quite the opposite.

That is what makes the few things that drive me crazy about him so bad. Really just two things, the first is the only thing that would make me cut ties with him.

1. His lack of adjustments when teams game plan for his system.
2. Some of his line choices, even when the choice obviously is not working. Iggy on left wing for instance.

It is similar to Tomlin with the Steelers. Overall a great coach. But I HATE how he goes all riverboat gambler and loses almost every time. 4th and 1. Worse 4th and 1 in your own territory when tied with a minute and a half left in the game. Or trying a 60 yd. field goal in the same situation.

Saying that one element is idiotic does not mean you think he is a bad coach.

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05-06-2013, 01:16 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I wonder if any of you think it would be ridiculous for Hawks fans to call for Quenneville's head if they didn't reach the SCF this year. Because it's pretty much the same thing.

We won in '09 and only made the 2nd round once since. The Hawks won in '10 and haven't even made the 2nd round once since...and they weren't missing Toews and Kane for one of those playoffs.
RRP, you seem to be a staunch DB supporter (which is fine, by the way). But I'm curious at what point you'd actually be in favor of seeing him replaced? Hypothetically speaking, if the Pens crap the bed against the Isles this year, is that enough? Another first round loss next season? At what point is your breaking point?

For me, it's not even a case of "he should be fired because he sucks". He's a good coach, in a lot of aspects. But that's the thing. Most good coaches eventually come to their expiry date with a given club. It's why guys like Julien, Quenneville, Hitchcock, Babcock, etc. have worked for multiple clubs. If Byslma's team flames out early this year, then I think that expiry date has arrived after 4 straight playoff disappointments (whether or not the losses were his fault entirely or not).

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05-06-2013, 03:09 AM
  #57
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I don't feel like Bylsma's message is falling on deaf ears or whatever. The team still responds to him, I think. If they wanted him gone you'd see that with their on ice play.

That said just because they like him doesn't mean a new voice isn't necessary. But I'll wait and see how the playoffs play out before deciding that, as will Shero. Seeing some of the same problems as last year is troubling, to say the least.

I know this thread isn't about Fleury but I feel like the same questions apply to him as well. If he keeps ******** the bed like this how long will we stick with him? I like the guy but it's time for him and Bylsma to put or up shut up. ECF at least for both imo or we really have to ask hard questions this off-season, or rather Shero does.

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05-06-2013, 04:29 AM
  #58
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Well give you Alain Vigneault for DB in a heartbeat.

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05-06-2013, 06:11 AM
  #59
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i was about to type that.

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05-06-2013, 06:29 AM
  #60
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In regards to a different coach...
Tippett, Julien and Carlyle are the only coaches that I can think of off the top of my head.

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05-06-2013, 07:44 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
RRP, you seem to be a staunch DB supporter (which is fine, by the way). But I'm curious at what point you'd actually be in favor of seeing him replaced? Hypothetically speaking, if the Pens crap the bed against the Isles this year, is that enough? Another first round loss next season? At what point is your breaking point?

For me, it's not even a case of "he should be fired because he sucks". He's a good coach, in a lot of aspects. But that's the thing. Most good coaches eventually come to their expiry date with a given club. It's why guys like Julien, Quenneville, Hitchcock, Babcock, etc. have worked for multiple clubs. If Byslma's team flames out early this year, then I think that expiry date has arrived after 4 straight playoff disappointments (whether or not the losses were his fault entirely or not).
My breaking point is when the team is bringing the requisite smarts and compete level, and there's a goalie who isn't throwing pucks in his own net, and we still lose. Byslma isn't telling Morrow to throw the puck to nobody on the PP that results in the Isles 3rd goal, or telling Kunitz to throw long cross-ice passes in the neutral zone to get picked off for the Isles 4th goal.

A lot of individuals are playing stupid, uninspired hockey, and the Isles are a fast, competitive young team that's making us pay for it. If they start investing in 50/50 battles and making responsible decisions with the puck, we'll be just fine.


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05-06-2013, 08:55 AM
  #62
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I have mixed feelings on Bylsma. It's hard to really tell if he's any good or not. Name me a coach, with no history of coaching in the NHL that comes into the league and is given all the talent he has been?

Success is, and pretty much should be expected with that kind of talent. When Therrien got the ax I think they moved Bylsma into position temporarily just to keep the train on the tracks and, lo and behold, they win a Cup. Hard to replace a guy when he wins a Cup, you know?

The Montreal series was certainly disappointing, the loss to Tampa can be blamed on injuries, but, BUT, the loss to Philly was unacceptable on a lot of levels.

We had the better talent, we had the better team and like coaching at Michigan, you just don't lose to Ohio St, or else. Well, we don't like losing to Philly and certainly not the way it went down. Dan lost control of the team in that series, completely.

I hear people say he would get a job instantly if the Pens fired him, but isn't he still an unproven talent? How would he do without the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Neal, etc...? Nobody knows for sure.

Personally I think his job is secure. Perhaps it comes into question if they lose to the Isles, but even then I think he gets another shot. I'd like to see him get some semblance of control over this team about now and see them win a 3-1 type game.

I think people may be forgetting that the Islanders were #8 in league scoring this past season. Seeing them put up some goals is not that hard to believe.

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05-06-2013, 09:03 AM
  #63
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DB could also do his job and bench players who are making stupid plays. That's one of my biggest gripes with him. You're not going to lose the room by setting examples.

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05-06-2013, 09:27 AM
  #64
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I've always thought one of the biggest issues is that Disco surrounded himself with cronies and not necessarily the best minds. You don't get much of a true sounding wall, that way.

DB himself is more good than bad. But he has his wrinkles. Wrinkles that might be smoothed over a little bit were his staff built differently. At least that's my take.

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05-06-2013, 09:47 AM
  #65
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DB could also do his job and bench players who are making stupid plays. That's one of my biggest gripes with him. You're not going to lose the room by setting examples.
He is absolutely "head in the sand" with his roster decisions. This is by far his biggest fault. If you don't dress your best roster, and give yourself the best chance to win, you aren't helping your team one bit. No amount of strategy is capable of overcoming this. How can a coach not have a good (if not the best?) idea of what players give him the best chance to win games? Example: Tanner Glass never being scratched....same for Adams in past years-when he was much worse. He also thinks MAF is a starting goaltender on a contender.

Coaches have very little effect on the outcome of games aside from who they chose to play, IMO. They always get too much credit for wins, and usually too much credit for losses. I still think MAF/or "sloppy goaltending" is the root of almost all of this team's emotional problems.


Other than that, Dan has a good idea of how to win hockey games. Need to win possession battle and play the majority of the time in the opponent's zone. I don't know if he knows how accomplish that though. He is dressing about the worst Corsi based roster they could assemble. As a result, Pens are getting dominated in possession by the NYI. The players also seem to like him and he has abandoned the enforcer nonsense too. If he ever learns how to properly evaluate and utilize players, he could be one of the best NHL coaches. He seems to be very stubborn though.

Que: Assistant coach that is not a yes man and challenges him from time to time.

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05-06-2013, 10:22 AM
  #66
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It depends in what fashion they lose. But, if it's anything like what's currently happening, where the team is basically beating itself by refusing to adjust its gameplan, then yes he should be replaced if a suitable replacement can be found. And NOT Lindy Ruff.

I'd consider Guy Boucher, John Hynes or Larry Robinson. Probably nobody else.
I've wondered whether Robinson would take the job a different points the last couple years. Like his coaching style. People said it wouldn't work because he'd never coach anywhere but NJ, however as he's currently the assistant coach in SJ... seems that theory does not hold watah.


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Tippett? a defensive system that finds a way to allow Yandle and OEL to excel offensively sounds good. his contract is up and his franchise is up for relocation...
Unless his contract is up and they don't re-sign him, Tippett will stay with PHX / Seattle / wherever they end up. But yah. Would love to see what Tippett could do with this team.

Eventually, what I've learned is, very few coaches stay on a specific job more than 4 or 5 years. Bylsma's time is running out IMO if we don't make a deep playoff run this year. Sooner or later Shero has to cover his own ass by not covering the coach's.

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05-06-2013, 10:56 AM
  #67
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I've wondered whether Robinson would take the job a different points the last couple years. Like his coaching style. People said it wouldn't work because he'd never coach anywhere but NJ, however as he's currently the assistant coach in SJ... seems that theory does not hold watah.




Unless his contract is up and they don't re-sign him, Tippett will stay with PHX / Seattle / wherever they end up. But yah. Would love to see what Tippett could do with this team.

Eventually, what I've learned is, very few coaches stay on a specific job more than 4 or 5 years. Bylsma's time is running out IMO if we don't make a deep playoff run this year. Sooner or later Shero has to cover his own ass by not covering the coach's.
Tippett's contract IS up. There is speculation that PHX will be unable to re-sign him due to the uncertainty of the franchise.

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05-06-2013, 11:10 AM
  #68
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I don't think DB is a "bad" coach but I do however think he is very limited in the tactical sense and can easily be outcoached.

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05-06-2013, 11:43 AM
  #69
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My breaking point is when the team is bringing the requisite smarts and compete level, and there's a goalie who isn't throwing pucks in his own net, and we still lose. Byslma isn't telling Morrow to throw the puck to nobody on the PP that results in the Isles 3rd goal, or telling Kunitz to throw long cross-ice passes in the neutral zone to get picked off for the Isles 4th goal.

A lot of individuals are playing stupid, uninspired hockey, and the Isles are a fast, competitive young team that's making us pay for it. If they start investing in 50/50 battles and making responsible decisions with the puck, we'll be just fine.
Isn't it the coach's job to get it through their heads not to do that stuff though?

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05-06-2013, 12:09 PM
  #70
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My adjustments:

-Let Vokoun play 1 game, monitor team's response.

TV has statistically been MAF's equal all year, yet the team has produced +1.0 more goals (in goal diff) for while he's been in net. I don't know if it's just luck, TV getting easier opponents, or what. It's nothing to ignore though. I experiment to see if playoff results come, knowing the probable worst outcome is like-for-like swap. Pen's usually seem more composed when he is in net to me. MAF needs to feel the leash is short too.

-Scratch Glass for Jeffrey

Jeffrey is a much better possession player and can kill penalties. He will be the 5th PK forward behind...Adams, Cooke, Sutter, Dupuis. Pens gain a large improvement in corsi, and 5v5 play with this swap (which they desperately need). This also allows Bylsma to play the 4th line more, given rest to key players. Glass needs scratched, bottom line. Pretty moot decision who replaces him between DJ or TK. Both are about equally better than Glass

-6th defender without a healthy Orpik? I would stay with Depres, but need to "instill confidence" in him.

This is a tough one. Depres had a bad game, really bad. Engelland did too prior to that. Just not a an easy choice here. That's why I'm not ignoring the entire regular season and all that Depres did there over 1 poor game. Depres's ceiling is still higher than any of his alternatives and I am letting that dictate this decision. Depres is the only D man that can WIN you a game. Engelland/Bortz can only hope to not lose you a game

- Pens need to play a possession game. Stop giving puck away and just "clearing" the zone. Stop the stretch passes, and unchallenged dump ins. If Pens can equal or win the shot/possession game, this isn't even a close series. There is no reason the Pens can't out possess this NYI team. Not a hard fix either.

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05-06-2013, 12:11 PM
  #71
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Isn't it the coach's job to get it through their heads not to do that stuff though?
Good luck with this conversation.

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05-06-2013, 12:12 PM
  #72
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Good luck with this conversation.
Lol well I'm not interested in getting into that debate again. I'm just simply asking the question.

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05-06-2013, 12:22 PM
  #73
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I like DB. Some of these issues are his, but some of just stuff that every team deals with.

a) Isles speed. Traditionally, the way to deal with this is to pound this team so their tired in the latter parts of a series. A different forecheck might help, but who knows. The only team we have really played like this in the playoffs was Montreal .... and Halak had more to do with that than the Canadiens speed overall.

b) Chemistry. Not having all of the parts together in the regular season and possibly having too many parts that he doesn't know what to do with them ... YET.

c) Injuries / Lineup. They were playing fine without Crosby. Yet, no one would suggest taking him out of the lineup, right? Yet, we get on DB for not playing Despres (who looked horrible), Bennett (who other than his first goal has done little on any line). We killed Kennedy all year and NOW, we have people wishing he was back in. DB can't win with us period.

d) Fleury. Taking out Fleury with a 2-1 lead or going 1-1 into Long Island would do exactly what for him or the Pens. Maybe we still win, maybe we lose. but, do you really want to risk losing your top guy's mind for the rest of the playoffs to get by the Islanders? And who's to say Vokoun leads you to that? If he screws up, as we saw a few times this year, then you go back to a guy you just demonstrated you don't trust. With the other issues we have defensively, do we really want to add that one?

e) Player ****Ups. If DB was to take out every player who has screwed up, we would have a new lineup every night. Malkin and Crosby would surely be benched, Niskanen, Martin, Letang, Engelland, Despres, and Murray would have all been out. Kunitz, Morrow, Iginla, Bennett .... hit the bench bums. Of course, he can't do that. He has to allow players to play through it, including the youngsters, but in doing that, he's risking the series because ONE play can be the difference .... again, he can't win.

All I can say is if you don't have someone better to go in his spot, then stick with the "devil" you know. The only one I would even suggest would be Tippett.

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05-06-2013, 12:31 PM
  #74
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My breaking point is when the team is bringing the requisite smarts and compete level, and there's a goalie who isn't throwing pucks in his own net, and we still lose. Byslma isn't telling Morrow to throw the puck to nobody on the PP that results in the Isles 3rd goal, or telling Kunitz to throw long cross-ice passes in the neutral zone to get picked off for the Isles 4th goal.

A lot of individuals are playing stupid, uninspired hockey, and the Isles are a fast, competitive young team that's making us pay for it. If they start investing in 50/50 battles and making responsible decisions with the puck, we'll be just fine.
So you don't think coaching plays into "requisite smarts and compete level"? I'm not saying a coach is responsible for the players actions on the ice, but when you see the same **** happen over and over again, you need a scapegoat. Shero did his job, now DB should be accountable for some playoff results.

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05-06-2013, 12:50 PM
  #75
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Isn't it the coach's job to get it through their heads not to do that stuff though?
He does, and for extended stretches. Then they have lapses like the current one.

I don't expect it to last any more than I expected the garbage play at the start of the season to last. Playoffs are different yadda yadda.

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So you don't think coaching plays into "requisite smarts and compete level"? I'm not saying a coach is responsible for the players actions on the ice, but when you see the same **** happen over and over again, you need a scapegoat. Shero did his job, now DB should be accountable for some playoff results.
I'd replace Fleury well before I'd think about replacing DB. His failures are much more tangible and directly responsible for our losses.

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