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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

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05-06-2013, 12:22 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Heard Ron Duguay on the radio. Pretty much said Tortorella is an issue with the younger players.
Im pretty much 100% convinced you've taken this out of context.

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05-06-2013, 12:24 PM
  #277
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I would go with a 1st time HC. Doesn't have to be veyr young.

Someone that understands offence and how to generate it.

I joke about it all the time, but I can't see the down-side of giving a guy like Joey Mullen a shot here as Head Coach.

The PP alone would benefit and if everything else stayed the same, we would be better off.

We have dodged the Offence/Defence balance that teams need in order to really compete for a cup. We have what I think is a very solid, well balanced team in the sense that we have a solid top 9 at forward and a solid top 4 on D, but the focus of the system has now followed in that balance.

We need someone that can come in here and develope an offensive system while not sacrificing to much defensively.
Sure.

Brian Trottier worked well.

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05-06-2013, 12:24 PM
  #278
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I dont get how he is an issue with younger players.. Carl Hagelin, Derek Stepan, Ryan McD havent had an issue getting ice. Del Zotto got a fair chance after he came back up from the minors. So to me that is Horse ****.
success IN SPITE of Torts doesn't mean they don't have an issue with him.

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05-06-2013, 12:25 PM
  #279
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Sure.

Brian Trottier worked well.
because that's guaranteed to happen on every new head coach.

riiiiight

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05-06-2013, 12:26 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
success IN SPITE of Torts doesn't mean they don't have an issue with him.
lmao they succeeded despite him?? All of those players? Im not in a pro torts campt but that isnt remotley true.

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05-06-2013, 12:26 PM
  #281
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Sure.

Brian Trottier worked well.
No worse than Muckler

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05-06-2013, 12:28 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Sure.

Brian Trottier worked well.
Bryan Trottier was a victim of a culture and a roster that were ill-suited to any coach. I do seriously wonder about whether or not he would've turned out better in a different situation. The guy also coached a team whose captain not only dominated the room, but was one of his rivals when he was still playing. Not an easy scenario.

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05-06-2013, 12:30 PM
  #283
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One thing we do is make the mistake of guys who have won Cups. This franchise is better off with someone hungry to win their first.

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05-06-2013, 12:32 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Bryan Trottier was a victim of a culture and a roster that were ill-suited to any coach. I do seriously wonder about whether or not he would've turned out better in a different situation. The guy also coached a team whose captain not only dominated the room, but was one of his rivals when he was still playing. Not an easy scenario.
My point with the Trottier comment is that so many people are concerned about the on-ice offensive output. Certainly worth a conversation. But theres a lot more that goes into being an NHL coach. A lot more.

So "Oh, Joey Mullen was a good offensive player, lets try him" isnt going to cut it.

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05-06-2013, 12:34 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
lmao they succeeded despite him?? All of those players? Im not in a pro torts campt but that isnt remotley true.
what I am saying is that Torts has a grating personality. Some guys can do their thing in spite of that, some can't.

I'm also saying that the three guys you mentioned would have found that success (can argue more success) under more friendlier tutelage.

That's not an indictment of Torts, more a credit to the players.

All three guys would be the same players they are today with any other HC. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Hagelin probably has more success with another HC as he seems to play better when he has consistent line-mates, something that is foreign to Torts.

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05-06-2013, 12:35 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
One thing we do is make the mistake of guys who have won Cups. This franchise is better off with someone hungry to win their first.
I think the problem I have is the front office seems lazy. The moves that are made are expected and simple. We have a guy who is not a screamer and yeller. So let's get a Cup winning coach who screams and yells.

We need grit so go out and get a who you pay for a name and what he has done in the past.

There is no talent evaluation on this team.

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05-06-2013, 12:39 PM
  #287
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I think the problem I have is the front office seems lazy. The moves that are made are expected and simple. We have a guy who is not a screamer and yeller. So let's get a Cup winning coach who screams and yells.

We need grit so go out and get a who you pay for a name and what he has done in the past.

There is no talent evaluation on this team.
This, in essence, wraps things up nicely.

Could be laziness, could be the fact money is being spent on players not even playing for this team instead of of talent evaluation, could be a whole host of things.

But the bottom line is for all the complaints about lack of on-ice creativity, the lack of creativity in the front office is much, much worse.

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05-06-2013, 12:42 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This, in essence, wraps things up nicely.

Could be laziness, could be the fact money is being spent on players not even playing for this team instead of of talent evaluation, could be a whole host of things.

But the bottom line is for all the complaints about lack of on-ice creativity, the lack of creativity in the front office is much, much worse.
Like SBOB often says, how can you come to that point of creativity when there's really no plan but 'we are goin for it all this year !' ?

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05-06-2013, 12:44 PM
  #289
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What does that mean?
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im pretty much 100% convinced you've taken this out of context.
The question was related to offense and Kreider.

He said that Kreider is so focused on playing defense that he's not being himself out there.
If you're a young player playing for Tortorella, it will take awhile because you have to play defense. You can't make mistakes because you will get benched.

He was pretty much saying stuff that was said on here.

You can go to WFAN to listen to the interview.

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05-06-2013, 12:44 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
My point with the Trottier comment is that so many people are concerned about the on-ice offensive output. Certainly worth a conversation. But theres a lot more that goes into being an NHL coach. A lot more.

So "Oh, Joey Mullen was a good offensive player, lets try him" isnt going to cut it.
Makes more sense. For example, Dan Bylsma wasn't a great offensive player but runs a system that does well in maximizing the firepower his team has. It's more about thinking the game well and communication than it is about the physical tools a guy had when he played.

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05-06-2013, 12:46 PM
  #291
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I refuse to believe this roster is a Top 5 roster in the NHL. On paper we should be decent but that doesn't appear to be the case. Richards is terrible which nukes the center depth and our bottom 6 has to be one of the worst league wide.

I crunched the numbers and totaled the stats of everyone who played a bottom 6 role this year including guys like Kreider and Miller.

259 combined games.
28 goals.
28 assists.
56 points.

That is absolutely dreadful. Defensively and Goal-tending wise we should probably be Top 3 in the league but McDonagh has been up and down all year, Del Zotto has had his brains in his ass for the past month, Girardi by all accounts had a pretty terrible season, Stralman is consistent but a 5th D-man, Staal is injured, the jury is out on Moore and Emmy/Gilroy/Bickel were Emmy/Gilroy/Bickel.
Sather retooled the bottom-6 at the deadline.

It's a LOT better now. The Rangers have three legitimate top-nine units and a solid fourth line. Before, they had two capable top-nine units, a weak third line and an AHL-caliber fourth line. He also managed to shore up the bottom pair with the acquisition of Moore.

I, myself, like the roster that's currently constructed, to an extent. I'd like to see Richards replaced with a more capable, faster second line center (I like Brassard, but I like him even more in a sheltered third line role), but otherwise, I'm rather fine with going into next season with this roster.

Tortorella, however, I'd like to see replaced if the Rangers are eliminated early, of course. The roster needs to be given a chance with a different coach. This isn't 08-09 where Renney objectively wasn't the problem, the roster was. This team has defensive depth, a good combination of skill and two-way ability in the top-nine, and, of course, an elite goaltender.

I'd like to see a first time HC, not one of the 'old-guard' or a retread, like Lindy Ruff. Maybe get a guy like Horacek, Eakins, or even Guy Boucher.

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05-06-2013, 12:51 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
One thing we do is make the mistake of guys who have won Cups. This franchise is better off with someone hungry to win their first.
Torts doesn't strike me as a guy that lacks the hunger to win another one though.

I tend to lean into the pro-torts camp. All the guys that have washed out like Lisin, Zherdev, etc. that fans cry "didn't get a fair shake" never really went and did much else after the fact.

We saw just a few years ago the Bruins win with very similar handicaps. Had a hard time scoring and had an awful powerplay. It can drive a fan INSANE when they're struggling, but I think saying we're "close" is an understatement.

Torts is far from perfect. I defend and like the system he runs in theory but at some point you've got to get rid of the coach and try something else if it doesn't work. Considering the fact that we've had Gaborik, we've had Nash, Richards, etc. and it's still been an offensive struggle, it's probably time at the end of the season if we don't go deep into the playoffs again.

This season makes the least sense of all. Stepan has a breakout year. Nash and Cally do great. Hagelin puts up decent point totals. Brassard comes in and scores a point per game down the stretch. We have a legitimate top 6 AND a good bottom 6. Our defense has guys capable of contributing on offense. Yet we can only net one goal in two games against Brandon Holtby and the Caps defense. Terrible.

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05-06-2013, 12:51 PM
  #293
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Like SBOB often says, how can you come to that point of creativity when there's really no plan but 'we are goin for it all this year !' ?
I don't really think a lack of creativity is a bad thing. Look at the Giants. The last creative team in football. Yet they have two Super Bowls to show for it where the "creative" Jets are basically rebuilding.

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05-06-2013, 12:53 PM
  #294
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I don't really think a lack of creativity is a bad thing. Look at the Giants. The last creative team in football. Yet they have two Super Bowls to show for it where the "creative" Jets are basically rebuilding.
The Giants manage to find talent. The Ranges don't. The Giants know how to build a team. The Rangers don't. The Giants win championships. The Rangers don't.


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05-06-2013, 12:54 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
The question was related to offense and Kreider.

He said that Kreider is so focused on playing defense that he's not being himself out there.
If you're a young player playing for Tortorella, it will take awhile because you have to play defense. You can't make mistakes because you will get benched.

He was pretty much saying stuff that was said on here.

You can go to WFAN to listen to the interview.
I like Kreider. I'm not as down on him as some may be. But how do we know what Kreider is? And how do we know he's not being himself.

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05-06-2013, 12:56 PM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
The question was related to offense and Kreider.

He said that Kreider is so focused on playing defense that he's not being himself out there.
If you're a young player playing for Tortorella, it will take awhile because you have to play defense. You can't make mistakes because you will get benched.

He was pretty much saying stuff that was said on here.

You can go to WFAN to listen to the interview.
Tortorella has made it so clear that Kreider and Miller both aren't ready. If he had it his way Kreider would've barely seen any time this year, same for Miller probably.

None of us can tell what goes on behind closed doors, but after some of their worst games, Torts didn't sound negative in talking about them, he just sounded realistic and ready to work with them.

I'm also a firm believer that good defense will result in offensive chances. Jagr's best years, he often picked peoples pockets on the backcheck. Same for Gaborik. Nash's big rushes up the ice don't start in the neutral zone. So using focus on defense for Kreider is kind of a copout to me. Are his defensive instincts so bad that he had to focus on it in Connecticut that much that his numbers suffered as badly as they did?

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05-06-2013, 12:57 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This, in essence, wraps things up nicely.

Could be laziness, could be the fact money is being spent on players not even playing for this team instead of of talent evaluation, could be a whole host of things.

But the bottom line is for all the complaints about lack of on-ice creativity, the lack of creativity in the front office is much, much worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Like SBOB often says, how can you come to that point of creativity when there's really no plan but 'we are goin for it all this year !' ?
There just doesn't seem to be any "outside the box" thinking (and I hate that phrase).

They let Avery walk. Then they hear how the Rangers miss Avery so they claim him off waivers. Where is the thinking? Did anyone really think that Avery was a good longterm fit with Torts?

The only real "find" they managed to get was Prust (and maybe Moore).

I'm tired of the lazy, expected moves.

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05-06-2013, 12:58 PM
  #298
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The Giants manage to find talent. The Ranges don't.
You really think not finding talent is the issue here? Idk. I think there are a lot of parallels between the way the Giants draft and the way the Rangers draft. The Rangers rely heavier on free agency and trades but that's just the differences in sports.

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05-06-2013, 12:59 PM
  #299
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Sure. But the Giants are one of the least creative teams around. They also have coaches that fans despise. Yet they win Super Bowls. Creativity is not the problem.

The main difference is JR vs. Sather. JR is clearly an elite GM whereas Sather was an elite GM. I think this team could succeed a hell of a lot more with the same coaching staff but a better GM. No need for the team to be creative, but finding low priced talent is something that they must do. Sather did a good job of that with the Gaborik trade, he did a good job of that when we got Prust, etc. Somehow, though, the free agent signings are just always horrible. Even our lower end ones. Look at how BRTUAL Pyatt is.

Someone needs to convince JR to become a hockey GM.

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05-06-2013, 01:00 PM
  #300
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You really think not finding talent is the issue here? Idk. I think there are a lot of parallels between the way the Giants draft and the way the Rangers draft. The Rangers rely heavier on free agency and trades but that's just the differences in sports.
Sure. It absolutely is. The Giants rely quite a bit on finding the FA gems. Low priced guys that come in, compete, and make a difference. The Rangers have consistently failed in that regard under Sather.

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