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Coaching Staff Discussion: Summer Rehab Edition

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Old
05-06-2013, 01:59 PM
  #76
Sidgeni Malkby
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Originally Posted by Pelican Peach Pen View Post
I like DB. Some of these issues are his, but some of just stuff that every team deals with.

a) Isles speed. Traditionally, the way to deal with this is to pound this team so their tired in the latter parts of a series. A different forecheck might help, but who knows. The only team we have really played like this in the playoffs was Montreal .... and Halak had more to do with that than the Canadiens speed overall.
If you pound their forwards, it gives them hesitation when trying to cross your blue line without regard. Slows them down just a bit.

With the Habs....
We weren't willing to engage in the dirty zones and muck it up in front of the net. I believe we are better built to do that now (aka Morrow, Iginla, Sutter, Cooke). Heck even Crosby and Malkin are driving the net now.


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b) Chemistry. Not having all of the parts together in the regular season and possibly having too many parts that he doesn't know what to do with them ... YET.
Very true. Hopefully we figure it out this round.

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Originally Posted by Pelican Peach Pen View Post
c) Injuries / Lineup. They were playing fine without Crosby. Yet, no one would suggest taking him out of the lineup, right? Yet, we get on DB for not playing Despres (who looked horrible), Bennett (who other than his first goal has done little on any line). We killed Kennedy all year and NOW, we have people wishing he was back in. DB can't win with us period.
Who's getting on DB for not playing Depres? He does look horrible out there.

TFK...he has been sucking, but he has speed and the Islanders aren't a hitting team, so he may do something out there.

Point is DB never sits Glass/Adams. People feel you have a 4th line to try stuff out...so DB should try things.

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Originally Posted by Pelican Peach Pen View Post
d) Fleury. Taking out Fleury with a 2-1 lead or going 1-1 into Long Island would do exactly what for him or the Pens. Maybe we still win, maybe we lose. but, do you really want to risk losing your top guy's mind for the rest of the playoffs to get by the Islanders? And who's to say Vokoun leads you to that? If he screws up, as we saw a few times this year, then you go back to a guy you just demonstrated you don't trust. With the other issues we have defensively, do we really want to add that one?
I agree completely. We can't pull Fleury.

Only way I see Vokoun starting is if we are down 2-0 or 3-1....or if Fleury lays a complete egg. Even game 2 he had a good 1st period.

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Originally Posted by Pelican Peach Pen View Post
e) Player ****Ups. If DB was to take out every player who has screwed up, we would have a new lineup every night. Malkin and Crosby would surely be benched, Niskanen, Martin, Letang, Engelland, Despres, and Murray would have all been out. Kunitz, Morrow, Iginla, Bennett .... hit the bench bums. Of course, he can't do that. He has to allow players to play through it, including the youngsters, but in doing that, he's risking the series because ONE play can be the difference .... again, he can't win.
DB already adjusts ice time based on players screwing up. My issue with DB is he has a preference for players like him...grinders. He always chooses the grinder over the skilled guy.

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All I can say is if you don't have someone better to go in his spot, then stick with the "devil" you know. The only one I would even suggest would be Tippett.
I have no clue who would be a good replacement.

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05-06-2013, 02:29 PM
  #77
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Pens aren't going to out-hit their way to wins in this series. They must win the possession battle. You can't hit if you have the puck.

http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-3.html

Here's a good article as to how badly the Pens played last game. This level of play will eventually cost the Pens the series. They will not win this luck game over time. Pens have to focus on shutting down the NYI 2nd line as that line has been absolutely dominating the Pens.

Pens are due for a total blowout (against them) with allowing this many shots, and having MAF in net. This is not a battle that we want to fight (allowing tons of shots on a shaky goaltender). This is why you experiment with Vokoun in net to see if the Pens play better in front of him. If MAF is unable to emotionally handle this, then why are we comfortable with him in the first place? Pens have 2 starting goaltenders.

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05-06-2013, 02:59 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Pens aren't going to out-hit their way to wins in this series. They must win the possession battle. You can't hit if you have the puck.

http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-3.html

Here's a good article as to how badly the Pens played last game. This level of play will eventually cost the Pens the series. They will not win this luck game over time. Pens have to focus on shutting down the NYI 2nd line as that line has been absolutely dominating the Pens.

Pens are due for a total blowout (against them) with allowing this many shots, and having MAF in net. This is not a battle that we want to fight (allowing tons of shots on a shaky goaltender). This is why you experiment with Vokoun in net to see if the Pens play better in front of him. If MAF is unable to emotionally handle this, then why are we comfortable with him in the first place? Pens have 2 starting goaltenders.
That's a pretty good article, but the author lays it on pretty thick as if his mind exploded by the Pens overcoming every statistical odd to cheat out a win. Couldn't even help himself to throw in that the OT penalty call was weak (try reading the NHL rulebook). That withstanding, most of the Islanders' scoring chances were neutered by poor execution of the shot or better goaltending by the Pens. Fleury seemed to have the time to square up and get adequate depth and angle on almost all of the shots. Maybe it was just a slightly slow release or poor accuracy, but Fleury wasn't exactly scrambling around trying to chase open space in the net. The overall quality of their scoring chances did not match the other aspects of their game that were superior (less the PP).

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Pens aren't going to out-hit their way to wins in this series. They must win the possession battle. You can't hit if you have the puck.

http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-3.html

Here's a good article as to how badly the Pens played last game. This level of play will eventually cost the Pens the series. They will not win this luck game over time. Pens have to focus on shutting down the NYI 2nd line as that line has been absolutely dominating the Pens.

Pens are due for a total blowout (against them) with allowing this many shots, and having MAF in net. This is not a battle that we want to fight (allowing tons of shots on a shaky goaltender). This is why you experiment with Vokoun in net to see if the Pens play better in front of him. If MAF is unable to emotionally handle this, then why are we comfortable with him in the first place? Pens have 2 starting goaltenders.
I wish someone from Pittsburgh would have guts to write such an article/analysis, for all these years in hockey all they can say"Pens didn't get to their game, pens didn't want as much as the opponent"

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05-06-2013, 03:12 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
That's a pretty good article, but the author lays it on pretty thick as if his mind exploded by the Pens overcoming every statistical odd to cheat out a win. Couldn't even help himself to throw in that the OT penalty call was weak (try reading the NHL rulebook). That withstanding, most of the Islanders' scoring chances were neutered by poor execution of the shot or better goaltending by the Pens. Fleury seemed to have the time to square up and get adequate depth and angle on almost all of the shots. Maybe it was just a slightly slow release or poor accuracy, but Fleury wasn't exactly scrambling around trying to chase open space in the net. The overall quality of their scoring chances did not match the other aspects of their game that were superior (less the PP).
I somewhat agree on the shot quality, but are you fine with allowing that many spins of the MAF meltdown wheel on a consistent basis? The fisherman are bound to light him up big and then we will be talking about our circus of a series just like the Habs. MAF hasn't saved over 90% of the shots since game 1. That isn't going to cut it with the Pens being out shot by 10 shots/game. This isn't a hard prediction to make.

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:14 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Pens aren't going to out-hit their way to wins in this series. They must win the possession battle. You can't hit if you have the puck.

http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-3.html

Here's a good article as to how badly the Pens played last game. This level of play will eventually cost the Pens the series. They will not win this luck game over time. Pens have to focus on shutting down the NYI 2nd line as that line has been absolutely dominating the Pens.

Pens are due for a total blowout (against them) with allowing this many shots, and having MAF in net. This is not a battle that we want to fight (allowing tons of shots on a shaky goaltender). This is why you experiment with Vokoun in net to see if the Pens play better in front of him. If MAF is unable to emotionally handle this, then why are we comfortable with him in the first place? Pens have 2 starting goaltenders.
This is a really interesting article, in that it exposes in clear numbers not only what we already knew (the Malkin line is discombobulated, the third line's speed is a liability, the fourth line generates nothing offensively) but also what very few have been willing to admit (the vaunted Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis line has been no better at ES the last two games than any other line).

I still don't think it 'costs' the Pens in this series. This one reminds me of 2010, when the Sens outplayed the Pens at ES but Pens special teams won the series. Next series, however . . .

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05-06-2013, 03:19 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I've always thought one of the biggest issues is that Disco surrounded himself with cronies and not necessarily the best minds. You don't get much of a true sounding wall, that way.

DB himself is more good than bad. But he has his wrinkles. Wrinkles that might be smoothed over a little bit were his staff built differently. At least that's my take.
This one is one few want to admit, but twice he had the chance to get a guy who could fill the gaps where he was relatively weak-- tactically and playing the bad cop-- and twice he demurred.

The other one I love is the 'he won the cup in 2009'. One, he didn't implement his vaunted system until AFTER the Pens won the cup, so judge that systems playoff results by the applicable years. The 2009 cup win is no more a testament to Bylsma's fully implemented system than it was to Therrien's system.

BTW, I don't know even what to make of this:

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Originally Posted by MurphyDump View Post
Take this quote from Capuano after the last game.:

"I'm sure that coaching staff, and it's a good coaching staff, is going to make certain adjustments, but when you watch them play over the years, you know they have a system, too," Capuano said. "They want to chip pucks and get in on the forecheck. I'm sure they change every now and then, but they believe in that system and they've been very successful with it."
Actually, I do know what to make of it, and it's depressing.

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05-06-2013, 03:24 PM
  #83
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This team has outgrown DB.
I think all teams, except those that go through full blown rebuilding jobs, outgrow their coaches at some point.

By the time Therrien was gone, players on this team were just so tightly wound it was ridiculous. Bylsma loosened the shackles. After they won the cup, instead of keeping the shackles a little looser, he just threw out what had worked and implemented his system going into the 2009-2010 season. The further this team gets time wise from the Therrien era, the looser it gets. So, yet again, the pendulum has swung too far. That doesn't make Bylsma a bad coach. But, I think he was a better coach for this team before he knew everything and surrounded himself with a bunch of 'yes' men.

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Originally Posted by Pelican Peach Pen View Post
I like DB. Some of these issues are his, but some of just stuff that every team deals with.

a) Isles speed. Traditionally, the way to deal with this is to pound this team so their tired in the latter parts of a series. A different forecheck might help, but who knows. The only team we have really played like this in the playoffs was Montreal .... and Halak had more to do with that than the Canadiens speed overall.

b) Chemistry. Not having all of the parts together in the regular season and possibly having too many parts that he doesn't know what to do with them ... YET.

c) Injuries / Lineup. They were playing fine without Crosby. Yet, no one would suggest taking him out of the lineup, right? Yet, we get on DB for not playing Despres (who looked horrible), Bennett (who other than his first goal has done little on any line). We killed Kennedy all year and NOW, we have people wishing he was back in. DB can't win with us period.

d) Fleury. Taking out Fleury with a 2-1 lead or going 1-1 into Long Island would do exactly what for him or the Pens. Maybe we still win, maybe we lose. but, do you really want to risk losing your top guy's mind for the rest of the playoffs to get by the Islanders? And who's to say Vokoun leads you to that? If he screws up, as we saw a few times this year, then you go back to a guy you just demonstrated you don't trust. With the other issues we have defensively, do we really want to add that one?

e) Player ****Ups. If DB was to take out every player who has screwed up, we would have a new lineup every night. Malkin and Crosby would surely be benched, Niskanen, Martin, Letang, Engelland, Despres, and Murray would have all been out. Kunitz, Morrow, Iginla, Bennett .... hit the bench bums. Of course, he can't do that. He has to allow players to play through it, including the youngsters, but in doing that, he's risking the series because ONE play can be the difference .... again, he can't win.

All I can say is if you don't have someone better to go in his spot, then stick with the "devil" you know. The only one I would even suggest would be Tippett.
Two things . . .

1. Tippett would be my first choice, like you and Cole.

2. At what point do you look at all of the screw ups and all the times it looks like players aren't hustling before you ask the inevitable question: Are they screwing up/not trying because the coach can't get through to them when it matters most, OR are they screwing up/not trying because the coaching (line combos, breakouts, defensive zone scheme, etc) puts them at a competitive disadvantage in the playoffs far too much? And, does the answer even matter, because even if it's the former you either fire most of the players or you fire the coach. This ultimately is what happened to Therrien. Didn't matter if what was happening on the ice was his fault or not . . . when something isn't working (like the Pens in the playoffs), you either fire most of the players or you fire the coach . . . or you are left with thinking about what could have been.

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:31 PM
  #84
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Hold out for DeBoer

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:33 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
This is a really interesting article, in that it exposes in clear numbers not only what we already knew (the Malkin line is discombobulated, the third line's speed is a liability, the fourth line generates nothing offensively) but also what very few have been willing to admit (the vaunted Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis line has been no better at ES the last two games than any other line).

I still don't think it 'costs' the Pens in this series. This one reminds me of 2010, when the Sens outplayed the Pens at ES but Pens special teams won the series. Next series, however . . .
****'s sakes it doesn't work for me. Someone cut and paste?

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Old
05-06-2013, 03:43 PM
  #86
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MtlPenFan, cutting through, here's what it shows:

The Pens are getting smoked at ES. Even the vaunted Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis line is getting outchanced 2 to 1. It's actually a minus unit the last two games, and has as many ES goals (2) the last two games as the putrid Malkin unit.

The second line is getting outchanced. Who'd have thunk that with the Malkin-Iginla pairing?

There may be a correlation between the third line's speed and its chances.

The fourth line generated no chances yesterday.

Brendan Morrow especially looked like dog **** at ES with Jokinen/Cooke OR Malkin/Iginla. Not sure why a speedy guy like that wouldn't be an asset there.

But, all of this said, I'm sure line combos and system have nothing to do with what yet again is the Pens getting smoked at ES in the playoffs.

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05-06-2013, 04:02 PM
  #87
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Game 1:
http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-1.html

Pens line combos in game 1 did much better. So Pens absolutely smoke the Isles in game 1, get best player in world back afterwards, and then get dominated top to bottom. I wonder what changed, besides CHANGING every single line for no reason?

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05-06-2013, 04:11 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Game 1:
http://www.shutdownline.com/hurrican...ns-game-1.html

Pens line combos in game 1 did much better. So Pens absolutely smoke the Isles in game 1, get best player in world back afterwards, and then get dominated top to bottom. I wonder what changed, besides CHANGING every single line for no reason?
They didn't get to their game?

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05-06-2013, 04:19 PM
  #89
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IF they are making a coaching change, Tippett would be my first choice. And there's only one Dave Tippett. And he's not going to be on the market all too often.

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05-06-2013, 04:41 PM
  #90
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."

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05-06-2013, 04:52 PM
  #91
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."
Well, glad to know we've adjusted. Imagine how ugly it might look if Bylsma hadn't adjusted. Why, we might actually be getting vastly outplayed at 5 on 5.

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05-06-2013, 04:54 PM
  #92
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."
How does he think that's working out?

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05-06-2013, 05:14 PM
  #93
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."
Please tell me Bylsma said that with a sarcastic smirk on his face. There's no way he actually was serious.

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05-06-2013, 05:38 PM
  #94
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Tippett's contract IS up. There is speculation that PHX will be unable to re-sign him due to the uncertainty of the franchise.
I didn't realize that / hadn't heard anything about that. Well, I don't know how long he'll stay available. Maybe Shero should immediately offer him a lucrative assistant coaching position with the little "secret" bonus that the big job is his after the season if we don't win the East at a minimum. I don't think there's any rule against having as many assistants as you want. This will give Tippett the opportunity to observe the assistants and decide if he wants to keep them around when Bylsma inevitably departs in the next year or two (assuming we don't at least make the Finals).

He can be like those NFL assistants that are up in press area, looking down on the plays calling in adjustments to be made.

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05-06-2013, 05:42 PM
  #95
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That would be pretty awesome.

Ludicrously unrealistic and about as likely as me becoming the King of Spain. But pretty awesome.

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05-06-2013, 05:43 PM
  #96
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."

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05-06-2013, 05:44 PM
  #97
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05-06-2013, 05:45 PM
  #98
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From Dejan on twitter today - Bylsma: "They've changed five different ways, and we've adjusted. That's part of a seven-game series."
Uhm, what!?

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05-06-2013, 05:45 PM
  #99
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That quote from Bylsma seems extra silly to me.

If I had any intelligence, it would certainly insult it.

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05-06-2013, 05:53 PM
  #100
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That would be pretty awesome.

Ludicrously unrealistic and about as likely as me becoming the King of Spain. But pretty awesome.
I would love to see:


.
.
.
.





King Blind Willy McHurt (Note: You may need to change your name to Blind William McHurt - it sounds more regal)

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