HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Serge Savard:We need to get bigger

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-07-2013, 05:39 PM
  #251
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 131313 View Post
This

Plus they had guys like Franzen , Holmstrom , Shanahan , Draper , McCarthy, Kronwall ect.

If you look at the cup winners of the last decade most of them had mix of size , skill and toughness. Having a bunch of midgets who shy away from traffic is not going to cut it. We tried this for the last 15 years and except this year and 08-09 when we finished second and first respectively we've been mostly a bubble team who made the playoffs as the 8th seed and got trounced by physical team in the POs. The proof is in the pudding.
Franzen and Shanahan both 6'3, McCarty 6'1, Holmstrom 6', both Draper and Kronwall 5'11... I agree with the 'midgets who shy away from traffic' part, we don't need that, if they were as gritty and fearless as Gallagher, now that would be something else. But, Detroit never had a really 'big' team, they had some, who complemented their system. They always had a team toughness philosophy though, AND they had 'enforcers' who could play, like McCarty, Lapointe (kinda), Probert earlier than that...

I mentionned Winnipeg earlier, perhaps the biggest team in the league, yet, where are they... ?

Size without grit is not very interesting, what we need first and foremost, is grit, grit, grit and aggression. I would take Dustin Brown wayyyyy before Nik Antropov...

Vasculio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:39 PM
  #252
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
BG can play on my team anytime. But he shouldn't be paired with DD,Gionta,Plecks... too many small guys in the top 6.

We need to get bigger up front. I dont think there's any question about it. If say Bobby Ryan is available, it would be nice to get him. Young, big, decent skill... depends on the price of course but we need to get bigger up front. I'm tired of seeing us pushed around. And for the love of God get players who will GO TO THE NET.
Im with you, but he would be so much better if he played with guys who could protect him. I liked it at the start of the season when it was healthy prust and the gally's but he cant carry that weight by himself longterm. after prust it gets pretty thin.

We need more size, we have been so small that we annoint any player who spends anytime not on the periphery a " power forward".
I know that big guys who will go to the net are not a cheap commodity but toronto has a handfull of them and they are not breaking the bank over there.

A lot of guys that would scratch this itch were available on waivers ( sesito/brown/ the lesser kassian) or are relatively inexpensive. Matt carkner makes aroud one and a half million and can play 10-15 minutes a game on the back end for the isles. it says something that the one player we have who can clear the front of the net is one of our youngest prospects who is not only unproven, he's marginally untested. if we expect him to carry the load, we could end up with komisarek #2.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:41 PM
  #253
attachetatuque
un gros bonhomme!
 
attachetatuque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: 514
Country: Canada
Posts: 501
vCash: 500
I doubt getting 1-2-3 tough guys in the line-up is what we need. I actually like the fact that our "fighter", Prusty, knows how to play puck. No point in getting guys like Orr, or Thornton, who won't play more that 5-6 minutes and bring nothing but fists. What we need is overall team toughness. Draft bigger guys, sign bigger free agents. Can't hate on Halpern but imagine if he had 1-2 inches and 20 pounds extra, and keeping his faceoff expertise.

That being said, I think that down the line, Subban is a physical player, Tinordi will be key in 1-2 years, and Beaulieu, when peaking, will bring physicality. Bourque is actually surprisingly physical in the playoffs. Replace Moen and Armstrong with guys equal in size but who play a much more physical game and add a physical D and I think we're in business.

attachetatuque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:43 PM
  #254
1993
Registered User
 
1993's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Mike Richards comes to mind. I'd take him on this team in a heart beat.
F*&k! He is the only player on that whole roster under 6 ft tall. You think he is scared to play his game. Bingo Sally!!

1993 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:43 PM
  #255
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitehowl View Post
One physical player the size of Prust , look at the rest of their roster all those years
Yes, Brendan Shanahan was a big ***** at 6' 3" 225.

Embrace your small infatuation.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:45 PM
  #256
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daGreenGiant View Post
I doubt getting 1-2-3 tough guys in the line-up is what we need. I actually like the fact that our "fighter", Prusty, knows how to play puck. No point in getting guys like Orr, or Thornton, who won't play more that 5-6 minutes and bring nothing but fists. What we need is overall team toughness. Draft bigger guys, sign bigger free agents. Can't hate on Halpern but imagine if he had 1-2 inches and 20 pounds extra, and keeping his faceoff expertise.

That being said, I think that down the line, Subban is a physical player, Tinordi will be key in 1-2 years, and Beaulieu, when peaking, will bring physicality. Bourque is actually surprisingly physical in the playoffs. Replace Moen and Armstrong with guys equal in size but who play a much more physical game and add a physical D and I think we're in business.
I have no problem adding a one dimensional fighter who can play 5-7 minutes and not hurt the team on a 4th line...but at playoff time usually guys like that are in the press box.

I think the team toughness is pretty good, but they obviously need to get bigger on defense...the return of Emelin and development of Tinordi and Beaulieu will fix that long term.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:45 PM
  #257
Nitehowl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: BC Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I deleted the rest of your post because it is simply you making excuses.

The Stanley Cup is the reason all teams in the NHL play the game.

After all those years of our drafting philosophy, BPA, we are no closer to the Cup than we were in 2003. And Hamilton finished either in last or close to last place in the AHL with our draft prospects.

Something needs to change.
How about a management team that thinks and works together? TT I think had different directions all the time from Gainey & Gauthier

Nitehowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:46 PM
  #258
1993
Registered User
 
1993's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daGreenGiant View Post
I doubt getting 1-2-3 tough guys in the line-up is what we need. I actually like the fact that our "fighter", Prusty, knows how to play puck. No point in getting guys like Orr, or Thornton, who won't play more that 5-6 minutes and bring nothing but fists. What we need is overall team toughness. Draft bigger guys, sign bigger free agents. Can't hate on Halpern but imagine if he had 1-2 inches and 20 pounds extra, and keeping his faceoff expertise.

That being said, I think that down the line, Subban is a physical player, Tinordi will be key in 1-2 years, and Beaulieu, when peaking, will bring physicality. Bourque is actually surprisingly physical in the playoffs. Replace Moen and Armstrong with guys equal in size but who play a much more physical game and add a physical D and I think we're in business.
Yes, but a couple of whackjobs to keep the peace during the long season would not hurt. Just play them in the regular season.

1993 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:47 PM
  #259
Nitehowl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: BC Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 912
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes, Brendan Shanahan was a big ***** at 6' 3" 225.

Embrace your small infatuation.
Wow you really getting rude

Nitehowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:47 PM
  #260
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Franzen and Shanahan both 6'3, McCarty 6'1, Holmstrom 6', both Draper and Kronwall 5'11... I agree with the 'midgets who shy away from traffic' part, we don't need that, if they were as gritty and fearless as Gallagher, now that would be something else. But, Detroit never had a really 'big' team, they had some, who complemented their system. They always had a team toughness philosophy though, AND they had 'enforcers' who could play, like McCarty, Lapointe (kinda), Probert earlier than that...

I mentionned Winnipeg earlier, perhaps the biggest team in the league, yet, where are they... ?

Size without grit is not very interesting, what we need first and foremost, is grit, grit, grit and aggression. I would take Dustin Brown wayyyyy before Nik Antropov...
It's great to have a lot of gritty guys who play physical...but you also need smart guys a la Bergeron Plekanec etc.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:48 PM
  #261
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daGreenGiant View Post
I doubt getting 1-2-3 tough guys in the line-up is what we need. I actually like the fact that our "fighter", Prusty, knows how to play puck. No point in getting guys like Orr, or Thornton, who won't play more that 5-6 minutes and bring nothing but fists. What we need is overall team toughness. Draft bigger guys, sign bigger free agents. Can't hate on Halpern but imagine if he had 1-2 inches and 20 pounds extra, and keeping his faceoff expertise.

That being said, I think that down the line, Subban is a physical player, Tinordi will be key in 1-2 years, and Beaulieu, when peaking, will bring physicality. Bourque is actually surprisingly physical in the playoffs. Replace Moen and Armstrong with guys equal in size but who play a much more physical game and add a physical D and I think we're in business.

As much as I hate the B'd wheel, i'd take thorton on the habs anyday, same with neil.

Everything you said after "that being said" is ( and please dont take this personally) exactly what is wrong with our fan base. We delude ourselves into thinking that players have attributes to address team need when they dont.

subban can throw big hits but he's not super physical
Tinordi and Beaulieu, neither have shown they have any propensity
to become the physical dman. tinordi has the size advantage but
he still has to fill out. they are both one punch away from being
komisarek.
Bourque is physical in the playoofs because of his elbows, in the
regular season he's okay but hes not what we are lacking
Moen and armstrong have "grit" but they just done use it.

I think that a lot of the guys you mention do bring something to this team but if you are counting on these guys ( or similar guys) to be the basis of the teams grit, its gonna be more of the same old same old.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:49 PM
  #262
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I deleted the rest of your post because it is simply you making excuses.
Uh, no. They were examples of me showing you how wrong you were. WTH are you even talking about here? What does TT need an excuse for? He's been awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The Stanley Cup is the reason all teams in the NHL play the game.
Really? Well gosh golly gee, thanks for clearing that one up. Again, wtf are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
After all those years of our drafting philosophy, BPA, we are no closer to the Cup than we were in 2003. And Hamilton finished either in last or close to last place in the AHL with our draft prospects.
?

Hamilton won the Calder cup four years after Timmins was hired. Then the core of the players who won went to the NHL.

Dude... you are hilarious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Something needs to change.
That's right something needs to change... Maybe if you actually took an intelilgent look at our draft history, you'd understand that it's not the drafting that needs changing.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:49 PM
  #263
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Franzen and Shanahan both 6'3, McCarty 6'1, Holmstrom 6', both Draper and Kronwall 5'11... I agree with the 'midgets who shy away from traffic' part, we don't need that, if they were as gritty and fearless as Gallagher, now that would be something else. But, Detroit never had a really 'big' team, they had some, who complemented their system. They always had a team toughness philosophy though, AND they had 'enforcers' who could play, like McCarty, Lapointe (kinda), Probert earlier than that...

I mentionned Winnipeg earlier, perhaps the biggest team in the league, yet, where are they... ?

Size without grit is not very interesting, what we need first and foremost, is grit, grit, grit and aggression. I would take Dustin Brown wayyyyy before Nik Antropov...
Its advantageous to have players like Gallagher on the team because of his speed. Pleks and Chuckie (who will fill out as he gets older)as well.

The problem is that in addition to those small but talented and speedy players, we have too many small non-physical players, forwards and DMen included.

And we are loaded with small non-physical forwards in Hamilton.

To win a Cup, a team must have speed and talent, as well as size to open up space for the talent and have at least 3 big physical DMen.

Anything other than that, and a team will be a yearly exit from the playoffs.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:49 PM
  #264
Bronn
Registered Sellsword
 
Bronn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Highest Bidder
Posts: 10,899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Franzen and Shanahan both 6'3, McCarty 6'1, Holmstrom 6', both Draper and Kronwall 5'11... I agree with the 'midgets who shy away from traffic' part, we don't need that, if they were as gritty and fearless as Gallagher, now that would be something else. But, Detroit never had a really 'big' team, they had some, who complemented their system. They always had a team toughness philosophy though, AND they had 'enforcers' who could play, like McCarty, Lapointe (kinda), Probert earlier than that...

I mentionned Winnipeg earlier, perhaps the biggest team in the league, yet, where are they... ?

Size without grit is not very interesting, what we need first and foremost, is grit, grit, grit and aggression. I would take Dustin Brown wayyyyy before Nik Antropov...
I 100% agree with you. Size is meaningless if you don't use it properly.

We should look at how the Kings and Blues are built and try to copy that model. Those are two teams who have , or close to , the right mix of size , skill and toughness imho. Does this mean they will win the cup ? No (well the Kings did last year) but i think that they are very well build teams who can adapt to any situation.

Bronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:52 PM
  #265
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
the following have to go period

Gio , DD , Dias , Moen , Colby , Kabbie , Webber

Markov must not be resigned , he cant play 5/5 and he is worn out at only 50 games , move him next season , dont get sucked into an extension , and Nathan is ready to take over soon
Saying Markov can't play 5 on 5 is a pretty big exageration. He's still a sublime puck mover and smart player, he just can't play the shutdown role like he did prior to all the ACL issues. He also needs to adjust his game to account for losing that step. If used properly he is still an above average NHL d-man and great mentor to the young guys.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:52 PM
  #266
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitehowl View Post
How about a management team that thinks and works together? TT I think had different directions all the time from Gainey & Gauthier
How about TT doesn't change a damn thing?

He's produced more NHL players than anyone. Max, Halak, A Kosti, McD, Price, Subban, S Kosti... tons of good players. Subban (maybe the best player in the draft) in the 2nd round? Max and McD as mid to late picks? That's outstanding no matter how you slice it. The fact that he does it mostly with later picks is incredible.

Up coming we have a ROY candidate and Galchenyuk. We've got Tinordi and Beaulieu.... what's this guy supposed to change? Just let the man do his job. If we want players with size and skill from the draft, we'll have to get higher picks. That's on the GM. Timmins has done a marvelous job for where he's picked.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:54 PM
  #267
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It's great to have a lot of gritty guys who play physical...but you also need smart guys a la Bergeron Plekanec etc.
Yep, complements. Big, physical, skilled players who also fight are damn rare, but, I don't mind if we get a guy who's not as skilled as the others, as long as he can follow the play and create space, while creating havoc in the offensive zone with his physical play. Ryane Clowe comes to mind, David Clarkson too, both UFAs... and I honestly would prefer a guy like Reaves or Boll (even Bordeleau, mixed reviews on his season, but it seems he can still play a bit) to Moen or Armstrong...

A balanced team is what we need, and Prust need a relief, since Moen decided not to play physical anymore.

Vasculio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:54 PM
  #268
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,867
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Uh, no. They were examples of me showing you how wrong you were. WTH are you even talking about here? What does TT need an excuse for? He's been awesome.


Really? Well gosh golly gee, thanks for clearing that one up. Again, wtf are you talking about?

?

Hamilton won the Calder cup four years after Timmins was hired. Then the core of the players who won went to the NHL.

Dude... you are hilarious.

That's right something needs to change... Maybe if you actually took an intelilgent look at our draft history, you'd understand that it's not the drafting that needs changing.
Look at Hamilton. With the exception of Quailer (Vail probably will not make an impact), all of our forwards are undersized and not physical players.

And they came from the BPA mold. And they were outplayed physically all season.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:55 PM
  #269
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 131313 View Post
I 100% agree with you. Size is meaningless if you don't use it properly.

We should look at how the Kings and Blues are built and try to copy that model. Those are two teams who have , or close to , the right mix of size , skill and toughness imho. Does this mean they will win the cup ? No (well the Kings did last year) but i think that they are very well build teams who can adapt to any situation.
I don't think St.Louis has the goaltending or high end skill up front to win a cup with their current roster.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:58 PM
  #270
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Look at Hamilton. With the exception of Quailer (Vail probably will not make an impact), all of our forwards are undersized and not physical players.

And they came from the BPA mold. And they were outplayed physically all season.
Nattinen and Geoffrion were 6'2". Holland 6'. Most others are not really NHL prospects, Bournival is 5'11" not excatly a smurf. The prospect d-men are 6'2" 6'2" 6'3" and 6'6".

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 05:59 PM
  #271
bipolarhabfan
Registered User
 
bipolarhabfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Burnaby, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,573
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Franzen and Shanahan both 6'3, McCarty 6'1, Holmstrom 6', both Draper and Kronwall 5'11... I agree with the 'midgets who shy away from traffic' part, we don't need that, if they were as gritty and fearless as Gallagher, now that would be something else. But, Detroit never had a really 'big' team, they had some, who complemented their system. They always had a team toughness philosophy though, AND they had 'enforcers' who could play, like McCarty, Lapointe (kinda), Probert earlier than that...

I mentionned Winnipeg earlier, perhaps the biggest team in the league, yet, where are they... ?

Size without grit is not very interesting, what we need first and foremost, is grit, grit, grit and aggression. I would take Dustin Brown wayyyyy before Nik Antropov...
This is exactly how I feel. We need players with a high compete level that will never quit. No Peter Popovic's of the world. The most glaring need is on our D; it is Charmin soft, especially without Emelin.

bipolarhabfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 06:01 PM
  #272
Bronn
Registered Sellsword
 
Bronn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Highest Bidder
Posts: 10,899
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't think St.Louis has the goaltending or high end skill up front to win a cup with their current roster.
Maybe not and yes they lack high end talent but i still think they are a well balanced team who may be a couple of pieces away to being true contenders.

Despite losing the last 2 games hey sure are giving the Kings a run for their money this year . Best series of the playoffs so far imho

Bronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 06:13 PM
  #273
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bipolarhabfan View Post
This is exactly how I feel. We need players with a high compete level that will never quit. No Peter Popovic's of the world. The most glaring need is on our D; it is Charmin soft, especially without Emelin.
Damn yeah, Emelin's loss is insane on the physical department... Tinordi and Beaulieu should fill the void soon, but they're so young still, there's also Dietz and Thrower in the system who plays physical and are good sized (well, not necessarily Thrower, but if he could become a 'Barrett Jackman' with more offensive abilities, twould be awesome). Right now though, we need another physical D in the Marc Methot mold...

I wonder why they don't give Bouillon a rest, he struggles a lot right now, and insert Drewiske in the lineup, he's far from the best D we have, but, he's big and keeps the game simple, exactly what Bouillon is not right now...

Vasculio is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 06:57 PM
  #274
Kwikwi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 46
vCash: 500
I do not mind size... But the way many suggest, we'll end up with 2-3 more Moen type in our lineup...

If you switch Gio for a power foward we have a different team right there. Lets pick wisely.

Kwikwi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2013, 07:03 PM
  #275
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,218
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikwi View Post
I do not mind size... But the way many suggest, we'll end up with 2-3 more Moen type in our lineup...

If you switch Gio for a power foward we have a different team right there. Lets pick wisely.
Oh you mean like Eric Cole?

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.