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Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men

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05-07-2013, 10:21 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Someone help me out here (legitimate request)

When and where were such comments made? Or are they conveniently not in print? I haven't read or heard anything to substantiate this.

Not discounting a flip/flop here by Weiers, but...

I believe this is from George Fallar's blog where he mentions "At the last home game this season, the mayor told ex Council Member Clark that a $10M figure could work"

http://thehockeywriters.com/coyotes-...e-in-glendale/

So it's hearsay from what I can tell, and I have some doubt the Mayor would tip his hand so foolishly and admit his top dollar price to Joyce Clark, who blabs about everything on her twitter and blog. Unless it was a setup

Not to mention, GF routinely praises Craig Morgan as one to trust, and it's becoming clear Morgan is on their side much like local radio jocks Roc and Manuch.


Last edited by CC Superfan: 05-07-2013 at 10:25 PM. Reason: update
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05-07-2013, 10:22 PM
  #402
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So why is the Republic article gospel and the Fox article "BULL!" ?
Neither article is really gospel or bull. The Republic article analyzes the Summary Financial Statement which are the actuals as opposed to the Fox article which analyzes forecasts. Obviously, any analysis that utilizes actual results is preferable to a model based on projections.

For BOH, none of this is new territory. The Phx thread archive contains complete breakdowns of all this material. It's really immaterial to the decision at hand. Either the NHL has a relocation option or they don't.

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05-07-2013, 10:24 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Someone help me out here (legitimate request)



When and where were such comments made? Or are they conveniently not in print? I haven't read or heard anything to substantiate this.

Again...



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=140

Not discounting a flip/flop here by Weiers, but...
I seem to recall statements to that effect in late January or early February. Maybe used out of context.

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05-07-2013, 10:40 PM
  #404
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But the picture might not be so gloomy. Recent comments from council member Gary Sherwood, vice mayor Yvonne Knaack and even Mayor Jerry Weiers have suggested they are open to a fee as high as $10 million or $12 million per year -- not far off from the high-end estimate of $15 million floated by some ownership groups.

It would be stunning to see a deal fall apart over a couple million dollars per year, but there is new leadership in Glendale since the last management deal was reached, and it is believed any deal would still need to secure one more council vote for passage.
http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/nhl/...blockID=899957

Just a couple (9?) million dollars... and by then the city will provide citizens with a bucket to use in case of fire (water not included, need to cut somewhere). They should also teach pets CPR to be on the safe side.

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05-07-2013, 10:47 PM
  #405
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Damn straight it is. Completely disingenuous. Claptrap. Was wondering
when the NHL would fire back. Friendly platform in Fox, here we go....
Yeah Killion.... it's categorically sacrilegious for someone to propose a more realistic outlook of figures when it doesn't fit the agendas of a few.


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05-07-2013, 10:48 PM
  #406
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Somebody should tell them about the Sprint Center.
Also tell them about Oklahoma City which not only has the Chesapeake Energy Arena (where the Thunder play) but the Cox Convention Center, which has a 15K seat arena (where the OKC Barons and the arena football team play) right across the street, so 2 arenas are viable.

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05-07-2013, 10:48 PM
  #407
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It's certainly interesting the NHL used the media to let the COG know of this and not a face to face. It doesn't bode too well to any further negotiations. It's not a good thing that most of the negotiations so far have been in the media.
I wonder if Sir Gary is using any of these negotiation tactics...



Source: http://blog.iqmatrix.com/better-negotiator

Fare thee well!

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05-07-2013, 10:48 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Someone help me out here (legitimate request)... Not discounting a flip/flop here by Weiers, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyotes Clubber View Post
I believe this is from George Fallar's blog where he mentions "At the last home game this season, the mayor told ex Council Member Clark that a $10M figure could work"...
I think actually CC what M4B is asking about is specific to the older link & quotes he pulled from it, which as I re-call are from a Budget Meeting back in April. GF & Morgan's comments, Clarkes notwithstanding, Weiers did in fact muse aloud about that at that time. Whether or not he was flip flopping or what we just dont know, however, if he does decide to up the ante' and go all in agreeing to a $10-$12M+ AMF where's he gonna find the money to cover it? The City cant come up with $850K for the Fire Department as it is with the $6M placeholder already allocated for arena management services, and the bills just keep piling up. Beyond irresponsible to over-pay a fair market value rate to begin with and at this juncture, political suicide to try it on.

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05-07-2013, 10:53 PM
  #409
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One deals with facts the other not
They both deal with the facts. They only offer a different viewpoint of those facts.

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05-07-2013, 10:54 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Coyotes Clubber View Post
I believe this is from George Fallar's blog where he mentions "At the last home game this season, the mayor told ex Council Member Clark that a $10M figure could work"

http://thehockeywriters.com/coyotes-...e-in-glendale/

So it's hearsay from what I can tell, and I have some doubt the Mayor would tip his hand so foolishly and admit his top dollar price to Joyce Clark, who blabs about everything on her twitter and blog. Unless it was a setup

Not to mention, GF routinely praises Craig Morgan as one to trust, and it's becoming clear Morgan is on their side much like local radio jocks Roc and Manuch.
Well if they are penciling in $6-6.5 million for an AMF with no hockey team going to $10 with a hockey team isn't much of a stretch.

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05-07-2013, 11:00 PM
  #411
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The FOX article ignores the fact that the only reason there are very few non-hockey events at Jobing is because
  • either the NHL deliberately destroyed the non-hockey business to make the Coyotes more valuable to Glendale
  • or the NHL are bungling incompetents
You know the old saying about not mistaking for malice, that which can be explained by gross incompetence. Anyhow, see http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=974


Since the NHL took over, the bottom has dropped out of non-sports attendance at Jobing. The city should consider suing for professional malpractice.
And the AZ Republic article completely ignores non-hockey events all together.

There is absolutely NO guarantee another arena manager could even fill enough dates to compensate for the loss of the Coyotes. I've seen dozens of posts here claiming it can be done but unless it's actually done it's nothing but hot air.

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05-07-2013, 11:05 PM
  #412
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Well if they are penciling in $6-6.5 million for an AMF with no hockey team going to $10 with a hockey team isn't much of a stretch.
Why should it be more with a hockey team? The city isn't getting any more direct revenue with the team there. And, it certainly isn't getting 3.5M more in tax revenue from Westgate as a result of the team being there.

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05-07-2013, 11:05 PM
  #413
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Well if they are penciling in $6-6.5 million for an AMF with no hockey team going to $10 with a hockey team isn't much of a stretch.
If you're cutting emergency services, and extra 3.5-4M is a lot.

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05-07-2013, 11:05 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Coyotes Clubber View Post
I believe this is from George Fallar's blog where he mentions "At the last home game this season, the mayor told ex Council Member Clark that a $10M figure could work"

http://thehockeywriters.com/coyotes-...e-in-glendale/

So it's hearsay from what I can tell, and I have some doubt the Mayor would tip his hand so foolishly and admit his top dollar price to Joyce Clark, who blabs about everything on her twitter and blog. Unless it was a setup

Not to mention, GF routinely praises Craig Morgan as one to trust, and it's becoming clear Morgan is on their side much like local radio jocks Roc and Manuch.
Both Craig Morgan (Fox) and Paul Giblin (AZ Republic) are good reporters. They've done more the past few months covering this circus locally than the previous 3+ years. And..... BTW "GF" has praised both of them.

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05-07-2013, 11:11 PM
  #415
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Yeah Killion.... it's categorically sacrilegious for someone to propose a more realistic outlook of figures when it doesn't fit the agendas of a few.
I dont quite follow. Dalys comments were as per usual fantastical, conveniently omitting salient facts. Cheap pre-fab job. Doesnt even address reality at ground zero. Doesnt even bother to try & abrogate responsibility for the beyond pathetic & sorry state of bookings at thejob because he doesnt even bother to address it and surprise surprise, no one at Fox bothers to ask him about it. On & on. Dalys listed as President CEO of NHL Arena Newco LLC. The Arena Managers who got paid a cool $78,000 a day for two years to purportedly maximize revenues & the asset of the half billion dollar palace built for them in the first place. And the guy goes & gives an interview at Fox firing back publicly at the Republic and everyone else with half a brain who's had the temerity to call him and the NHL out? Are you kidding me?

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05-07-2013, 11:18 PM
  #416
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If there are only 3 events in the arena all year, that tells me a few things...

1) The NHL has done a horrible job of managing the arena. (I believe that is their job, at least.)

2) Maybe, just maybe, Phoenix didn't need an arena in the suburbs when they have one smack dab downtown.

3) Building in Glendale defied logic.
1.) Yes. And it was stupid of Glendale not to have some kind of performance clause. Maybe they can appeal it to a state court in a lawsuit: gross negligence on the part of the arena manager, so bad you don't need a performance clause to recognise it as that bad, especially when they collected $45M (not sure what the numbers are on the second $20/25M due to all the confusion surrounding it).

2.) Beware suburban mayors with visions. They want their town's name in big marqee lights. Often their vision ends up leaving the city damaged in some way. Glendale is leaving a monumental trainwreck. They had tunnel vision and didn't see that glaring light or blaring train horn coming straight at them. The light at the end of the tunnel was... (wait for it)... a monorail train!

3.) Logic! Evidently, you don't know the first thing about Clarkonomics. The first thing about Clarkonomics is to throw logic out the window. Once you stop trying to make everything fit logic or be explained by the laws of economics, it all makes perfect sense. Another name for Clarkonomics is Bizarro logic, you know, where everything is backwards and upside-down from what it should be.


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If you're cutting emergency services, and extra 3.5-4M is a lot.
Indeed. As I said before, a vote for an inflated AMF this time has potential life & death ramifications for some in Glendale. Cold-hearted Clarkonomicists might have no problem playing the Grim Reaper, but others might. I'd imagine the propensity to vote for an AMF in the face of big public safety cuts, one which might result in even deeper cuts, is directly proportional to the thickness of their heads. That is a new variable.

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05-07-2013, 11:32 PM
  #417
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....


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05-07-2013, 11:43 PM
  #418
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1.) Yes. And it was stupid of Glendale not to have some kind of performance clause. Maybe they can appeal it to a state court in a lawsuit: gross negligence on the part of the arena manager, so bad you don't need a performance clause to recognise it as that bad, especially when they collected $45M (not sure what the numbers are on the second $20/25M due to all the confusion surrounding it).

2.) Beware suburban mayors with visions. They want their town's name in big marqee lights. Often their vision ends up leaving the city damaged in some way. Glendale is leaving a monumental trainwreck. They had tunnel vision and didn't see that glaring light or blaring train horn coming straight at them. The light at the end of the tunnel was... (wait for it)... a monorail train!

3.) Logic! Evidently, you don't know the first thing about Clarkonomics. The first thing about Clarkonomics is to throw logic out the window. Once you stop trying to make everything fit logic or be explained by the laws of economics, it all makes perfect sense. Another name for Clarkonomics is Bizarro logic, you know, where everything is backwards and upside-down from what it should be.




Indeed. As I said before, a vote for an inflated AMF this time has potential life & death ramifications for some in Glendale. Cold-hearted Clarkonomicists might have no problem playing the Grim Reaper, but others might. I'd imagine the propensity to vote for an AMF in the face of big public safety cuts, one which might result in even deeper cuts, is directly proportional to the thickness of their heads. That is a new variable.
And if the whole success around Westgate depended mostly on the Coyotes (considering the Cards only have a handful of home games a year), then putting the bulk of the mail in the hands of a franchise that has never turned a profit would be like tossing hundred dollar bills into a fire.

If I'm the mayor of Glendale, I would be tempted to allow the Coyotes to leave and hired an arena manager who has experience at bringing in big events. Jobing and Westgate might be better served to be a concert destination... More people would go see Taylor Swift or Bruno Mars than the Coyotes on any night. As it stands now, 41 dates with a handful of sellouts isn't helping the entire district.

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05-07-2013, 11:56 PM
  #419
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And the AZ Republic article completely ignores non-hockey events all together.

There is absolutely NO guarantee another arena manager could even fill enough dates to compensate for the loss of the Coyotes. I've seen dozens of posts here claiming it can be done but unless it's actually done it's nothing but hot air.
Any idiot can fill more dates than the NHL did. I start by putting together some music show every Saturday night say a battle of the bands thing. Then I hire two dozen girls who can skate and start my own Ice Capades show on every Thursday and Friday. I book a Wrestling show every other month a few Monster truck shows, Motocross races here and here and there you go more dates than what the NHL delivered.

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05-08-2013, 12:14 AM
  #420
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Any idiot can fill more dates than the NHL did. I start by putting together some music show every Saturday night say a battle of the bands thing. Then I hire two dozen girls who can skate and start my own Ice Capades show on every Thursday and Friday. I book a Wrestling show every other month a few Monster truck shows, Motocross races here and here and there you go more dates than what the NHL delivered.
Wouldn't hurt if they grabbed another tenant either. Obviously there's no way in hell the Suns move from downtown to Glendale, but I know Phoenix has an arena football team. Hell, Lingerie Football even. Anything. NBA d-league. I don't know.

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05-08-2013, 01:24 AM
  #421
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Any idiot can fill more dates than the NHL did. I start by putting together some music show every Saturday night say a battle of the bands thing. Then I hire two dozen girls who can skate and start my own Ice Capades show on every Thursday and Friday. I book a Wrestling show every other month a few Monster truck shows, Motocross races here and here and there you go more dates than what the NHL delivered.
Nobody is arguing the arena has been under booked. That's a red herring in the debate over arena costs.

I'd be more interested in a breakdown of what it costs to operate the arena for a hockey event versus other types of events.

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05-08-2013, 01:32 AM
  #422
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I dont quite follow. Dalys comments were as per usual fantastical, conveniently omitting salient facts. Cheap pre-fab job. Doesnt even address reality at ground zero. Doesnt even bother to try & abrogate responsibility for the beyond pathetic & sorry state of bookings at thejob because he doesnt even bother to address it and surprise surprise, no one at Fox bothers to ask him about it. On & on. Dalys listed as President CEO of NHL Arena Newco LLC. The Arena Managers who got paid a cool $78,000 a day for two years to purportedly maximize revenues & the asset of the half billion dollar palace built for them in the first place. And the guy goes & gives an interview at Fox firing back publicly at the Republic and everyone else with half a brain who's had the temerity to call him and the NHL out? Are you kidding me?
I wasn't referring to Daly. He's been nothing but a PR guy in all this.

I'm referring to the squabbling over which article (Giblin's or Morgan's) is the real thing. Both take different views over what the real costs of the arena are. As CF aptly put it... neither one is complete.... yet we've got posters latching onto either one based on their personal opinions about having an NHL franchise in Arizona.

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05-08-2013, 02:02 AM
  #423
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Nobody is arguing the arena has been under booked. That's a red herring in the debate over arena costs.

I'd be more interested in a breakdown of what it costs to operate the arena for a hockey event versus other types of events.
Maintaining the ice quality in a desert can't be cheap.

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05-08-2013, 07:11 AM
  #424
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I hear this argument often, but I alsoremeber at the time that the Mark Chipmman lead, Winnipeg Spirit group, or whatever they were called, had the cash, and the comitment/determination to buy the Jets. They even had a plan in place to eventualy build an arena. Granted the arena was an "when possible we will build" kinda deal.

But at the time the NHL wanted out of Winnipeg and made a number of demands of the ownership group, including such odd ideas as the team had to be owned by a single owner with something like 60 million in cash on hand and a bunch of other stuff. They Also demanded a new Arena Like right F*&^%ng NOW! no time or allowances just it had better be there by next season.

In short the team was in financial trouble, the dollar was a big problem, the market didn't invest when they needed to, and the arena was outdated with a bad deal. But first and foremost the NHL wanted out of Winnipeg so they could "grow the game" in the USA and get an National American TV contract. and to my mind it was that final factor, so incredibly inconsistent with the way they have handled the 'Yotes, that killed the jets.
The figure was actually that the single owner had to have a net worth of 600 million. Something that no other NHL team at the time was required to adhere to...... it would have made that owner the richest owner in the league........ ironically, the current version of the Winnipeg Jets does have the richest owner in the league.... or in all of pro sports for that matter.... but I digress,

Playing devil's advocate for a moment.... despite not having an anchor tenant, the Sprint Center in KC provides 2 distinct advantages that Jobbing.com does not have :

1) It is centrally located in the heart of downtown Kansas City

2) It has no venues to compete with for attracting events.

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05-08-2013, 07:52 AM
  #425
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I'm referring to the squabbling over which article (Giblin's or Morgan's) is the real thing. Both take different views over what the real costs of the arena are. As CF aptly put it... neither one is complete.... yet we've got posters latching onto either one based on their personal opinions about having an NHL franchise in Arizona.
Doesn't matter what the posters think. They can latch on to whatever they want. Employees of the CoG latched on to whatever number suited their purposes as well.

All that matters is what the Mayor and council think. And if they think that the most they can afford to pay or should be paying for arena management is in the $6M/yr range then I think the Coyotes are moving.

And it doesn't really matter if the CoG got ripped off by the NHL by putting up $25M/yr when they should have only put up $6M or even $12M... that's done and gone. What matters is what they can afford to pay today.


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