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Bernie Nicholls or Dino Ciccarelli?

View Poll Results: Bernie Nicholls or Dino Ciccarelli?
Bernie Nicholls 11 29.73%
Dino Ciccarelli 26 70.27%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-04-2013, 11:26 PM
  #1
pdd
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Bernie Nicholls or Dino Ciccarelli?

Who do you think is more worthy of a spot in the HHOF? 150-point scorer Bernie Nicholls, or HHOF member Dino Ciccarelli?

For reference:

Nicholls' career totals: 1127GP, 475-734-1209
Nicholls' totals without Gretzky years: 1001GP, 378-606-984

Ciccarelli's career totals 1232GP, 608-592-1200

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Old
05-04-2013, 11:30 PM
  #2
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Dino

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05-05-2013, 12:13 AM
  #3
Trebek
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Poll added. Voted Bernie, although I might be influenced by the time when the Avalanche didn't suck.

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05-06-2013, 01:52 AM
  #4
seventieslord
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I'd say Nicholls was better overall, but I'd say Dion was surely a better winger than Nicholls was a center... and that's probably a more accurate way to answer this question.

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05-06-2013, 08:25 AM
  #5
BraveCanadian
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Bernie was better than Dino.

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05-06-2013, 08:42 AM
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Never really liked Bernie‘s game to be honest. Always thought he was a lil soft, didn‘t put much effort in the forecheck or defensively too often.
Dino on the other hand was a super pest, played in the hardest area‘s of the ice his whole career. It was just his off the ice behavior I didn‘t care for.
As players I take Dino but for the question of being HoF worthy, Dino‘s off ice issues almost keeps him out.

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05-06-2013, 09:00 AM
  #7
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For HHOF? I'd vote for neither

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05-06-2013, 09:29 AM
  #8
pdd
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
For HHOF? I'd vote for neither
The question is "who is more worthy?" not "who is truly worthy?"

The same question can be asked about Scott Hannan vs. Hal Gill. I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever suggest either has even played more than a game of their career (if that) at a HHOF-caliber level.

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05-06-2013, 09:49 AM
  #9
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Dino Ciccarelli.

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05-06-2013, 04:33 PM
  #10
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bernie nicholls and its not close. watch them play. bernie is one of the more underated players 'round these parts.

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05-06-2013, 04:52 PM
  #11
Big Phil
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I am one of the few guys who probably looks beyond Nicholls' time with Gretzky and realizes he was an underrated player, or at least better than he gets credit for. However, I am more inclined to choose Dino based on intangibles and substance. Nicholls had a little more value than a point collector, he was a decent leader, good in the postseason and a fine playmaker, but with Dino you had a guy who scored 608 goals from the most ungodly positions taking the worst beatings. He kept on ticking though, time and time again. He didn't quit. Has a nice playoff resume to be honest, there wasn't a time when you thought Dino screwed the team over.

I like his tenacity a bit better, not to mention he was better amongst right wingers than Nicholls was as a center. He was feisty too, had a lot of room out there for a little guy. Ask Luke Richardson. Dino was always a guy who could snap at any minute and I think that's what kept people on their toes with him.

I can see a case for Dino being one of those "legitimate" HHOFers rather than the one we all complain about. Keep in mind, him being in there is not the equivalent of people wanting to see Andreychuk in there.

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05-07-2013, 03:05 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I am one of the few guys who probably looks beyond Nicholls' time with Gretzky and realizes he was an underrated player, or at least better than he gets credit for. However, I am more inclined to choose Dino based on intangibles and substance. Nicholls had a little more value than a point collector, he was a decent leader, good in the postseason and a fine playmaker, but with Dino you had a guy who scored 608 goals from the most ungodly positions taking the worst beatings. He kept on ticking though, time and time again. He didn't quit. Has a nice playoff resume to be honest, there wasn't a time when you thought Dino screwed the team over.

I like his tenacity a bit better, not to mention he was better amongst right wingers than Nicholls was as a center. He was feisty too, had a lot of room out there for a little guy. Ask Luke Richardson. Dino was always a guy who could snap at any minute and I think that's what kept people on their toes with him.

I can see a case for Dino being one of those "legitimate" HHOFers rather than the one we all complain about. Keep in mind, him being in there is not the equivalent of people wanting to see Andreychuk in there.
The knock against Dino (apart from off-ice) is that he took bad penalties, I dont know how much of that is true in the playoffs tho. I always though Owen Nolan was worse in that regard. Nolan screwed his team with 3rd period penalties playoff after playoff.

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05-07-2013, 07:56 AM
  #13
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'd say Nicholls was better overall, but I'd say Dion was surely a better winger than Nicholls was a center... and that's probably a more accurate way to answer this question.
Production wise this is true but what about secondary skills and intangibles. For instance faceoffs for centers and puck retrieval in the corners for wingers.

Not that Dino was a 1 trick pony but his game did have limitations and he probably relied more on other for his production than Bernie did, notwithstanding that one Wayne year.

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05-07-2013, 08:03 AM
  #14
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I voted for... see below.


Last edited by hawkman: 09-18-2014 at 07:54 AM.
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05-07-2013, 08:26 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
I voted for... see below.
the next poll should be BamBam or Pebbles to build a team around eh?

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05-07-2013, 08:36 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The knock against Dino (apart from off-ice) is that he took bad penalties, I dont know how much of that is true in the playoffs tho. I always though Owen Nolan was worse in that regard. Nolan screwed his team with 3rd period penalties playoff after playoff.
Dino drew far more penalties than he took. Stuck his nose in all the time despite being smaller than all the Dmen smashing him.

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05-07-2013, 09:14 AM
  #17
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Dino drew far more penalties than he took. Stuck his nose in all the time despite being smaller than all the Dmen smashing him.
That wasnt really the point. It's good ofcourse to draw penalties but its devastating to get a bad penalty at the end of a tied game in the playoffs.

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05-07-2013, 09:54 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Production wise this is true but what about secondary skills and intangibles. For instance faceoffs for centers and puck retrieval in the corners for wingers.

Not that Dino was a 1 trick pony but his game did have limitations and he probably relied more on other for his production than Bernie did, notwithstanding that one Wayne year.
I've broken down that year Hardy; I assume you have read the posts. You've certainly posted in the threads. In "that one Wayne year" Nicholls put up a better season than Ciccarelli's most productive outside of plays where one assisted on the other's goal. In Ciccarelli's most productive year (55-51-106 in 81-82; the league's highest scoring non-war year) he was not his team's leading scoring, finishing 8 points behind Bobby Smith. Nicholls was only 18 points behind Gretzky (and arguably gave more than he got from Gretzky directly). Unless you're suggesting Ciccarelli would have hit the same 150 points on LA in 1988-89 if they had traded Nicholls for him before the season, I'm not sure what the bolded part means.

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05-07-2013, 10:17 AM
  #19
vadim sharifijanov
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i go with dino. the guy had his warts, and they were big huge warts, but he was a beauty at two things most players don't want to do, or only are half-willing to do: take incredible beatings in front of the net, and agitate. those are things you want during playoff time.

unfortunately, dino knew it. speaking of warts, here's him throwing his teammates under the bus after he gets traded to detroit:

Quote:
"It was a financial decision," said Ciccarelli. "They didn't want to pay me. My contract of $440,000 on my option year was up and I was due for a substantial raise. They didn't even try to negotiate with me. I gave my heart to the organization for three years. Look at my face and my scars and that proves it. I gave my all. If the rest of the players had done the same, we might have won the playoffs."
source: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/199...y-miller-poile (note: click on the link to read the hilarious prospect analysis of gonchar)

unstated, of course, is the controversy (alleged sexual assault) that probably also played a big part in the team not matching the stevens offer sheet, and selling low on ciccarelli and geoff courtnall for choir boys (kevin miller and peter zezel). not to say that money wasn't also a factor in all those decisions. but whether or not what was alleged in fact happened, though as i recall the evidence of an institutional cover-up suggests that there was something to hide, let's just say dino did not have the best off-ice judgement, and that detracts from his value on the ice when you can't have him in the lineup or on the team, period.


on the other hand, bernie nicholls so far as i remember was a fantastic teammate, well-liked, good leader, stand-up guy, etc., on top of being a very solid contributor points-wise. but on the ice, i see him as kind of a mike ribeiro, only instead of getting to play with ovechkin, he shares a PP with gretzky. a super talented guy, who obviously does things most players can't do, but in a way he also does things that are easy to do in the sense that ciccarelli does things are unpleasant to do. kind of night and day, seeing nicholls as the oilers number one center after messier was gone.


not to say that either guy passes the HHOF smell test, of course.

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Old
05-07-2013, 01:15 PM
  #20
Evincar
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Production wise this is true but what about secondary skills and intangibles. For instance faceoffs for centers and puck retrieval in the corners for wingers.

Not that Dino was a 1 trick pony but his game did have limitations and he probably relied more on other for his production than Bernie did, notwithstanding that one Wayne year.
Then how was Dino 5th in goals and 6th in points in 86-87 (40 more points than the 2nd place scorer on the North Stars)?

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05-07-2013, 08:35 PM
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pdd
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i go with dino. the guy had his warts, and they were big huge warts, but he was a beauty at two things most players don't want to do, or only are half-willing to do: take incredible beatings in front of the net, and agitate. those are things you want during playoff time.

unfortunately, dino knew it. speaking of warts, here's him throwing his teammates under the bus after he gets traded to detroit:
Miller was a 20-goal, 50-point winger who was very solid defensively and 5.5 years younger than Dino. Dino was (as of the trade) a ~30 goal, ~75 point winger with poor defensive ability.

Washington decided to ship Miller out after ten games for Paul Cavallini (who was, at the time, a top-pairing defensive defenseman) so ultimately the Caps upgraded anyway. Cavallini was certainly worth at least Ciccarelli in trade, so the Caps came out ahead in that trade chain. Unfortunately, they decided to continue it and blow it by dealing him off for Enrico Ciccone in the summer of 1993. Ciccone ended up being part of a deal that brought Joe Reekie to Washington; Reekie was later dealt for a 4th (wasted). All part of a 29-year long asset chain that began with former Cincinnatti Stinger Mike Gartner joining the team in 1979-80, and included guys like Larry Murphy, Bob Rouse, Al Iafrate, Joe Juneau, Jason Marshall, Matt Cooke, Miika Elomo, and the incomparable Alexei Tezikov.

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but on the ice, i see him as kind of a mike ribeiro,
There is just sooo much wrong with this. Ribeiro has been a below average 1C in his best years. Nicholls was much better than that.

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05-08-2013, 07:38 AM
  #22
Hardyvan123
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Then how was Dino 5th in goals and 6th in points in 86-87 (40 more points than the 2nd place scorer on the North Stars)?
One season doesn't make a general rule over a career does it?

Broten was injured for part of the year, look at the year before.

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05-08-2013, 10:07 AM
  #23
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
There is just sooo much wrong with this. Ribeiro has been a below average 1C in his best years. Nicholls was much better than that.
really? to me, he was a 1st/2nd line tweener, like ribeiro. i mean, in his best years, was nicholls even a first line center? (seems to have been behind dionne, then 1a with dionne for a couple of years, then behind carson, then obviously behind gretzky)

the point, however, wasn't that in today's league nicholls would be ribeiro, though i think that's pretty close. what i meant was both guys are good but not great offensively, didn't do much other than put up points, can be the number one threat on a team while finishing top 15-20 in points but that team ain't going anywhere in the playoffs, even though both nicholls and ribeiro may well flirt with a point a game in the playoffs.

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05-08-2013, 10:34 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
really? to me, he was a 1st/2nd line tweener, like ribeiro. i mean, in his best years, was nicholls even a first line center? (seems to have been behind dionne, then 1a with dionne for a couple of years, then behind carson, then obviously behind gretzky)

the point, however, wasn't that in today's league nicholls would be ribeiro, though i think that's pretty close. what i meant was both guys are good but not great offensively, didn't do much other than put up points, can be the number one threat on a team while finishing top 15-20 in points but that team ain't going anywhere in the playoffs, even though both nicholls and ribeiro may well flirt with a point a game in the playoffs.
Nah, Nicholls wasnt a 1/2 line tweener but injuries made him become one.

Edit. He was stuck behind two hofers and was never stuck behind Carson. Plus Nicholls/Dionne was 1A and 1B and often on the PP together.

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05-08-2013, 11:28 AM
  #25
pdd
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
really? to me, he was a 1st/2nd line tweener, like ribeiro. i mean, in his best years, was nicholls even a first line center? (seems to have been behind dionne, then 1a with dionne for a couple of years, then behind carson, then obviously behind gretzky)

the point, however, wasn't that in today's league nicholls would be ribeiro, though i think that's pretty close. what i meant was both guys are good but not great offensively, didn't do much other than put up points, can be the number one threat on a team while finishing top 15-20 in points but that team ain't going anywhere in the playoffs, even though both nicholls and ribeiro may well flirt with a point a game in the playoffs.
He did play in the same role as Ribeiro (not getting a 1st-line job until he was traded to New York), but the quality of players in front of him was much higher. Marcel Dionne was MARCEL DIONNE. Jimmy Carson (born Demetrios Kyriazopoulos; now there's a name change!) was ahead of him briefly before being traded, and would be HHOF if the Gretzky pressure and then the following Detroit (compared to Yzerman) and LA pressure (again compared to Gretzky) basically broke his will. Had Carson been traded to New Jersey or in 1989 and spent his career there I think he'd have been fine. His career numbers (aide from the first few seasons) very much underrate his talent level; he was still a quite skilled player when he left the game, he just couldn't stand it mentally; he left the NHL at 27 and was still capable of playing in the top-six, retiring from hockey altogether before he turned 30. Furthermore, none of his four children (3 boys, 1 girl) play hockey, despite the fact that he lives in Michigan and is quite well-off (he became a financial planner after retirement and began investing his salary in 1989).

Now that I've gone way off track with Carson; Nicholls was a top player for his team (whether he be the #1C or just a top 2-3 forward) throughout his career. For Ciccarelli, that ended after the 1992-93 season. On the 1993-94 Wings, better forwards were: Fedorov, Yzerman, Sheppard, Kozlov, and Primeau. Drake also pushed him for the #6 spot until Murray made that ill-advised trade. He barely made the top-six. And he went downhill rapidly from there. Even in 1992-93, he was carried significantly by a dominant Yzerman.

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