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Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men

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05-08-2013, 07:52 AM
  #426
Whileee
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
And the AZ Republic article completely ignores non-hockey events all together.

There is absolutely NO guarantee another arena manager could even fill enough dates to compensate for the loss of the Coyotes. I've seen dozens of posts here claiming it can be done but unless it's actually done it's nothing but hot air.
Perhaps you should communicate this to TL Hocking. He seemed quite optimistic about the non-hockey events and parking revenue, when it suited Beasley et al.

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05-08-2013, 08:06 AM
  #427
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....

It is proven

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A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.
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05-08-2013, 08:16 AM
  #428
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The Coyotes in 2013 averaged 13,900 fans/game. Let’s be honest, though, and realize that the physical bodies through the door were probably a little less than that, as we know the NHL has been known to inflate attendence numbers a bit. Let’s call it 13,000 to be generous. A new arena manager needs to book events a year that average that number of fans over X nights to replicate the economic effect that the Coyotes fans provided. Any manager worth anything should be able to book 30-35 concerts in a city that close to Phoenix, even with the competition from downtown. It is a huge city, after all. If you bring in semi-pro hockey or NBA D-League to fill in some of the spots you at least get some bodies in the building, probably only 2-3 thousand, though. But what about monster truck shows? Barnam and Baily’s Circus? Even some comics will bring in 5-6 thousand. I simply refuse to believe that you can’t replace the Coyotes effect, especially given their attendance problems through the years. Will the city finally have to do some work for the economic benefit that fans in an arena provide rather than lazily throwing $25 million and hoping for the best? Yes. But in the long run they will be so much better off and save so much money.

People way underestimate the cumulative effect of things. When that mayor or whoever threw out the $10 million number as “doable”, contrast that with what the fair market value of an arena management fee would be, say the $6 million, but over 20 years. That’s $80 million extra the city is paying for the “prestige” of owning what has been, from a business point of view, one of the worst franchises in the league. It’s the same mentality people use to justify buying a house or a car they can’t afford. They see if they can make the monthly payment and have no perspective as to what it’s really costing them. There’s a reason sleazy salesman always play on that angle of their marks being able to afford the payment, because they know people in general are greedy and ignorant on financial issues. The salesman doesn’t care at all if you can’t afford anything else but what he’s selling you, just as the NHL or any prospective owner doesn’t care if Glendale can’t afford necessary services.

The question to ask, given the hypothetical $10 million capitulation is exactly this. Do the Coyotes provide $4 million MORE of an economic benefit per year than the events that a competent arena manager could book to replace them with. I have to say, flatly, no. One would need to actually open up the arena to over a hundred dates a year, but isn’t that steady influx even better for the surrounding businesses than the compressed 40 games/year the Coyotes would play?

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05-08-2013, 08:17 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
And it doesn't really matter if the CoG got ripped off by the NHL by putting up $25M/yr when they should have only put up $6M or even $12M... that's done and gone. What matters is what they can afford to pay today.
I keep coming back to why do they need to pay anybody to manage the building anyway? Don't they have municipal employees on the payroll already. All they should put in tender is a 5% to 10% finders fees for a booking agency to book the place. With quarterly standard that need to be met for the contract to re-up.

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05-08-2013, 08:24 AM
  #430
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And, it looks like the NHL/Coyotes will have another 'attendance' problem...

Casino backers get another court win in fight for Glendale facility

To quote:

"The Tohono O’odham Nation has won another round in court in its bid to build a $500 million casino in the West Valley north of Jobing.com Arena and University of Phoenix Stadium.

U.S. District Court Judge David Campbell ruled today in Phoenix against a lawsuit brought by the Gila River Indian Community and state of Arizona arguing the proposed casino violates the state’s 2002 voter-approve gaming compact with tribes."

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n....html?page=all

Slightly off topic, but the casino battle has cost the CoG at least $5million*.

Fare thee well! (with a little pocket coin)

* Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/art...a4bcf887a.html

To quote:

"He [Acting City Manager Dick Bowers] said, “add it all up, it comes to just under $5 million. My question is, what would we gain by winning the lawsuit? A bunch of dirt. The gain? Thousands of jobs.”"


Last edited by Llama19: 05-08-2013 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Update on legal costs, new source
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05-08-2013, 08:33 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
I keep coming back to why do they need to pay anybody to manage the building anyway? Don't they have municipal employees on the payroll already. All they should put in tender is a 5% to 10% finders fees for a booking agency to book the place. With quarterly standard that need to be met for the contract to re-up.
Given the challenges they face being venue B in the Phoenix area, I would suggest that they would be better served to hire/poach an experienced arena manager from a successful arena to help further establish Jobing.com Arena as the top venue in Phoenix for concerts. Considering the fact that it does hold a few thousand more for concerts, it actually should be #1 for other events.

Anyways, the NHL hasn't been doing Glendale any favours and they should be happy as a pig in slop to hand the running of the arena to a competent group of people. I don't get how councillors couldn't see they were getting *cough* jobbed by the NHL.

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05-08-2013, 08:38 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
And, it looks like the NHL/Coyotes will have another 'attendance' problem...

Casino backers get another court win in fight for Glendale facility

To quote:

"The Tohono O’odham Nation has won another round in court in its bid to build a $500 million casino in the West Valley north of Jobing.com Arena and University of Phoenix Stadium.

U.S. District Court Judge David Campbell ruled today in Phoenix against a lawsuit brought by the Gila River Indian Community and state of Arizona arguing the proposed casino violates the state’s 2002 voter-approve gaming compact with tribes."

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n....html?page=all

Slightly off topic, but the casino battle has cost the CoG at least $3+million.

Fare thee well! (with a little pocket coin)
Somebody explain to me again because that one I really don't get. How a city that bleeding money left and right and are desperate to create foot traffic in Westgate would waste more than 3 million fighting a real money and foot traffic generator?

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05-08-2013, 08:43 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
Somebody explain to me again because that one I really don't get. How a city that bleeding money left and right and are desperate to create foot traffic in Westgate would waste more than 3 million fighting a real money and foot traffic generator?
it's the children. they are protecting the children. casinos are evil, they attract drug dealers, aliens and rabid dogs. they drain churches of their sunday morning coffers. people lose their jobs, their homes, they end up on the streets, homeless, they become hookers, or worse, lawyers. pray tell, what kid of life is that for the children? thank god glendale is protecting them!

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05-08-2013, 08:45 AM
  #434
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Somebody explain to me again because that one I really don't get. How a city that bleeding money left and right and are desperate to create foot traffic in Westgate would waste more than 3 million fighting a real money and foot traffic generator?
Because gambling is baaaaaaaad and a siiiiiiiiin! Boooo! It's scaaaaaary!

Let me tell you something, Québec would be bankrupt if it wasn't for Loto Québec. (and Las Vegas would be an empthy patch of desert without the casinos)

Seriously, a casino will bring more people to the area then the bloody Coyotes!

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05-08-2013, 08:46 AM
  #435
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Nobody is arguing the arena has been under booked. That's a red herring in the debate over arena costs.

I'd be more interested in a breakdown of what it costs to operate the arena for a hockey event versus other types of events.
Lots of people would be interested in the cost breakdown, TL. Scruggs was practically begging Beasley and Skeete to provide those details. Instead of blithely telling the media that the figures quoted are off base, the NHL could have at any time furnished the accurate, audited figures of how much of the $25 million went to "arena management", and how much went to offset the cost of operating the franchise.

But you know, as does anyone who has paid any attention, that the previous city managers (Beasley and Skeete) persistently and deliberately refused to have those figures available to the mayor and city council members, and pointedly claimed that doing so would have a negative impact on any future negotiations with the NHL and prospective owners.

Maybe the current mayor and council in Glendale will continue to be cowed by these pressure tactics, or meekly credulous in the face of claims by the NHL or others regarding the financial realities of managing the Jobing.com.

The new reality is that the COG's mayor and council now know that they would have to make some very deep and painful budget cuts if they are to go anywhere near $15 million as an AMF. That much has become very clear.

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05-08-2013, 08:57 AM
  #436
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Doesn't matter what the posters think. They can latch on to whatever they want. Employees of the CoG latched on to whatever number suited their purposes as well.

All that matters is what the Mayor and council think. And if they think that the most they can afford to pay or should be paying for arena management is in the $6M/yr range then I think the Coyotes are moving.

And it doesn't really matter if the CoG got ripped off by the NHL by putting up $25M/yr when they should have only put up $6M or even $12M... that's done and gone. What matters is what they can afford to pay today.
Exactly. Of course there are increased expenses to run events for an NHL franchise. Usually, these are offset against the ticket revenues, rather than passed on entirely to the municipal government.

Even if the COG thought that it would actually cost $15 million to manage the arena with an NHL franchise as the core tenant, they still have to pay for it. According the the city manager and their staff, this would necessitate deep and painful budget cuts to city staff and services.

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05-08-2013, 09:13 AM
  #437
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I believe this is from George Fallar's blog where he mentions "At the last home game this season, the mayor told ex Council Member Clark that a $10M figure could work"

http://thehockeywriters.com/coyotes-...e-in-glendale/

So it's hearsay from what I can tell, and I have some doubt the Mayor would tip his hand so foolishly and admit his top dollar price to Joyce Clark, who blabs about everything on her twitter and blog.
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I seem to recall statements to that effect in late January or early February. Maybe used out of context.
Much thanks. Must have been asleep at the wheel.

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05-08-2013, 09:25 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
And the AZ Republic article completely ignores non-hockey events all together.

There is absolutely NO guarantee another arena manager could even fill enough dates to compensate for the loss of the Coyotes. I've seen dozens of posts here claiming it can be done but unless it's actually done it's nothing but hot air.
Well, apparently they were doing much better with non-hockey events before 2010, when the NHL came to town. According to this document, in 2009 60 (56%) of the events at the arena were non-hockey events. That was under the leadership of Moyes and gang. It was certainly a lot better than these past couple of years.

http://www.glendaleaz.com/documents/...obingArena.pdf

From a financial perspective, the arena management equation has balance expenses and revenues. An arena manager could propose to bring a permanent circus to the Jobing.com and perhaps claim that it costs $30 million a year to manage the arena. That doesn't mean that the COG can afford to pay that much. The problem vis-a-vis the Coyotes is that it costs much more to manage the arena with the team than without. The COG is being asked to cover the higher costs. We don't know how much direct subsidy for hockey operations is buried in the costs, because the financial details have been kept opaque. I do remember that the wording of Hulsizer's lease agreement explicitly permitted expenses for Coyotes operations other than player and coach salaries, and equipment.

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05-08-2013, 09:32 AM
  #439
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Somebody explain to me again because that one I really don't get. How a city that bleeding money left and right and are desperate to create foot traffic in Westgate would waste more than 3 million fighting a real money and foot traffic generator?
I don't think the aversion is anything to do with the evils of gambling. I think they fear it will drive people away from westgate to the reserve land to spend their money which is not taxed by Glendale.

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05-08-2013, 09:37 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
And, it looks like the NHL/Coyotes will have another 'attendance' problem...

Casino backers get another court win in fight for Glendale facility

To quote:

"The Tohono O’odham Nation has won another round in court in its bid to build a $500 million casino in the West Valley north of Jobing.com Arena and University of Phoenix Stadium.

U.S. District Court Judge David Campbell ruled today in Phoenix against a lawsuit brought by the Gila River Indian Community and state of Arizona arguing the proposed casino violates the state’s 2002 voter-approve gaming compact with tribes."

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n....html?page=all

Slightly off topic, but the casino battle has cost the CoG at least $3+million.

Fare thee well! (with a little pocket coin)
I thought I remember hearing that the new COG was more willing to talk to the Tonoho tribe about stopping the litigation and allowing the casino to move forward. It was mostly because the city continued to lose hearings and the litigiation was costing the city more and more money that they didn't have. If true, I wonder if they may start the negotiations now. I could be wrong about remembering this, however.

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05-08-2013, 09:51 AM
  #441
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It is proven



Jean Chretien

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...yvJZ3yUPV1B.99

At least, he did not say "It's abooot proof"

http://youtu.be/4WcOcgc3WN4


Last edited by QcBlizzard: 05-08-2013 at 09:57 AM.
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05-08-2013, 10:06 AM
  #442
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It has been postulated that the Tohono may have been interested in running/buying the Coyotes/Jobing in the past. It was even brought up in the infamous "cupcake" meetings with Goldwater.

I've always felt that they should have told the tribe that they would allow them to have the casino if they purchased the arena from the city. Then they would at least know they were getting something in return for the casino being placed there.

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05-08-2013, 11:32 AM
  #443
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It has been postulated that the Tohono may have been interested in running/buying the Coyotes/Jobing in the past. It was even brought up in the infamous "cupcake" meetings with Goldwater.

I've always felt that they should have told the tribe that they would allow them to have the casino if they purchased the arena from the city. Then they would at least know they were getting something in return for the casino being placed there.
I don't know if Glendale would sign a lease with them if they bought the club.

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05-08-2013, 11:45 AM
  #444
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Somebody explain to me again because that one I really don't get. How a city that bleeding money left and right and are desperate to create foot traffic in Westgate would waste more than 3 million fighting a real money and foot traffic generator?
Look no further than Joyce who has used Clarkonomics to suggest that 10,000 people living within a radius of the casio will be "affected". She might be against it because she's not getting a kickback like the Jamison deal they blindly passed.

http://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/casino-to-be-part-1/

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05-08-2013, 12:10 PM
  #445
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PROPOSAL SUBMISSION & PROCESS
A.) Minimum Requirements/Qualifications for Managers.
In order to have its response evaluated, a Manager (or if an affiliate, its parent company) must demonstrate at least one of the following requirements:
i. Is a nationally or regionally recognized facility management company which manages
publicly or privately-owned public assembly and/or sports and entertainment facilities;
ii. During the past three years, has successfully managed at least one NHL or National
Basketball Association (“NBA”)/all-purpose arenas with a seating capacity of at least
10,000 persons; or;
iii. The Manager must have current experience in operating such a facility on behalf of a public entity, such as the City of Glendale; and,
By submitting a Response, the Manager warrants and represents that it satisfies these requirements as well as fully comply with the requirements of the Arizona Corporation Commission.
Do Pastor or Gosbee even qualify to the above statement included in the RFP to manage jobing.com arena?

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05-08-2013, 12:21 PM
  #446
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Do Pastor or Gosbee even qualify to the above statement included in the RFP to manage jobing.com arena?

I cant see how they do. They have zero experience.

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05-08-2013, 12:27 PM
  #447
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Aren't Pastor and Gosbee outside the RFP process, and therefore the RFP requirements don't apply to them?

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05-08-2013, 12:27 PM
  #448
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My biggest problem with every "buyer" that has come along.


not one of these buyers is a big money independent wealth guy (besides Reinsdorf). They are all investment guys who are used to using other peoples money. Thats fine, I dont dislike the profession, but they arent the type of rich guys that own hockey teams. These investment specialists do not want to use their own money, and its not like they are the type of professionals that hold on to assets. These are the guys that buy low, chop down, and sell for profit. The out clause is a dead giveaway to their intentions.

Ill believe in this if we get one guy who made his money outside of the investment world. One guy who is willing to eat losses and put a serious product on the ice. That hasnt happened.


What these guys want to do is network with wealth. These are rich guys trying to get their hands on billionaire accounts. Its a giant cigar and whiskey mixer to these guys. They have been playing the nhl for years now and I cant understand how the nhl keeps falling for this networking scam by guys like ice edge (who are not incredibly wealthy, they are rich mcmansion investors), hulsizer who failed to buy 2 teams, Gosbee who only puts up enough money to last until he can sell the team for profit. Its a giant networking scam. Either the NHL is very very stupid, or they know what they are and just use them to delay the situation and avoid public backlash.


PKP? real wealth, not rich, wealthy. The nhl wants owners like him

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05-08-2013, 12:30 PM
  #449
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Aren't Pastor and Gosbee outside the RFP process, and therefore the RFP requirements don't apply to them?
You are right, that doesn't prevent them from buying the Coyotes, but they can forget about any kind whatsoever of AMF from Glendale... not even a $!

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05-08-2013, 12:39 PM
  #450
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They both deal with the facts. They only offer a different viewpoint of those facts.
That's too convenient and simplistic an explanation.

Clark and some of her acolytes refuse to acknowledge the difference between "net" and "gross" operating costs. That's not just a different "viewpoint", that's the difference between using sound and unsound financial logic. They point to the $12 million operating costs to justify that level of AMF, without acknowledging that the arena manager also reaps $6 million in revenues from the Jobing.com events that offset those costs. Why should the COG pay the full $12 million in gross operating costs if the arena manager also gets to keep all of the revenue?

Using that absurd logic, it would be to the COG's distinct financial disadvantage for the Jobing.com to have more events and more tenants, because they would end up having to pay the increased operating costs for the additional events without any offset from the increased revenue.

It still boils down to the fact that the NHL and various ownership candidates have consistently insisted that the COG not only pay for the arena management costs, but also pay a subsidy to offset the hockey-related operating losses of the Coyotes. The only question now is how much of a subsidy will be demanded by the NHL, and how much of a subsidy is the COG willing and able to pay. If they can agree, a local sale is imminent. If not, other options will be pursued.

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